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  #581  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
I don't think that historically, it was a special site in Chinatown, was it?

I think it has only become a special site because of the open space provided by the plaza,
which is a result of the diversion of Keefer St., the monument and the garden and traditional building to the west.

The site is across the street from a massive parkade.
If the site had been of special significance, surely, the community would never have allowed a parkade to be built there.

... and remember, that the downtown streetcar is slated to plow right through that area on Columbia St. headed to Gastown.
Will that be allowed?
It was at one point a gas station/garage, then briefly a theatre. It's been a empty lot since the 80s, possibly longer. The last development plan was for a casino with a tower in the 80s. I didn't hear why it was cancelled, but it was a brutalist pile of awful.

It's important because it's beside the Sun Yat Sen Gardens, which were built in 1986. Previously this area was a slough and generally an industrial mess.
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  #582  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 12:36 AM
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Thanks.
That's what I thought - that's is significant due to location and context rather than history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
The last development plan was for a casino with a tower in the 80s. I didn't hear why it was cancelled, but it was a brutalist pile of awful.
I remember seeing that render.
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  #583  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 1:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
I don't think that historically, it was a special site in Chinatown, was it?

I think it has only become a special site because of the open space provided by the plaza,
which is a result of the diversion of Keefer St., the monument and the garden and traditional building to the west.

The site is across the street from a massive parkade.
If the site had been of special significance, surely, the community would never have allowed a parkade to be built there.

... and remember, that the downtown streetcar is slated to plow right through that area on Columbia St. headed to Gastown.
Will that be allowed?
AFAIK, it originally was the site of a gas station, then a parking lot.

It has gained prominence as many see it as a 'gateway' into Chinatown and close to significant sites such as the Chinese cultural centre, the sun yat sen gardens and the monument. It also gets a lot of sun as it is south facing and andy livingston park opens up the space.

The prior process seems to me that many in the city and Chinatown weren't sure on how to increase development without adverse effects. Other commentators also note conflict and give the idea that this is an ongoing work in progress. (the link is a pretty good one that goes into more detail)

Quote:
During the City of Vancouver’s 2010 Historic Area Height Review for Chinatown, these sites (except for the Main St one) or its adjacent sites were even designated as Higher Building Sites that can take additional height to 150ft whereas the surrounding buildings be as high 70ft or 120ft depending on the zone. The City’s report called these potential higher buildings “markers” for Chinatown. In Appendix E of the HAHR report, it states:

The following factors were used in identifying potential locations for the three additional higher building sites in the Historic Area:
•Highlight street structure features, such as: termination of street views, convergence of street grid change, important intersections;
•Opportunities to better identify a major corridor, boundary or gateway;
•Recognize nodes of high activity.

Essentially, the gateways of Chinatown were simply regarded as traffic thoroughfares that should be “marked” by higher buildings. Almost 64% of City survey respondents and the Urban Design Panel (UDP) expressed strong concern over this treatment of the gateways. The City’s report states that respondents said:

[I]t was inappropriate to mark historic and culturally significant locations with tall buildings. This sentiment was reaffirmed in a meeting with the UDP who also felt that it was inappropriate to mark places of importance with height. Some considered this typology of building as being insensitive to the culture and history of the area, thereby presenting a challenge to maintaining its rich heritage qualities.
even if the most recent beedie proposal was within zoning guidelines (after 4 attempts of trying to upzone it), the argument is that maybe we should really rethink the whole Columbia/keefer area.


link. even the janky mandarin centre i suppose was better than this. the demolition of the coal-gas plant is to the left. the lot in question has the 'Texaco' service station.


link. I really see a lot of potential for public space here. I can see why the city is considering obtaining the lot.

Last edited by mezzanine; Nov 9, 2017 at 2:10 AM.
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  #584  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 3:46 AM
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Sorry, but looking at that picture with the plaza makes me question even more why the city would want the lot. There is already public space there, would the city just turn it into a bigger plaza? It would be better to have restaurants/ bars/stores with residential above fronting the plaza instead and cover up all the backsides of those buildings
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  #585  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 5:43 AM
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that is the lot where in the span of 2hrs i saw 4 different people use it as a public toilet. yes... such an important gravel parking lot that backs onto a run-down back lane.
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  #586  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:25 AM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
Sorry, but looking at that picture with the plaza makes me question even more why the city would want the lot. There is already public space there, would the city just turn it into a bigger plaza? It would be better to have restaurants/ bars/stores with residential above fronting the plaza instead and cover up all the backsides of those buildings
If the city had it, they could develop it in ways that would not put heavy gentrification pressure to other areas as if it were in private hands. I see perhaps some similarity to what happened to concord pacific and the 58 west hastings site (hat tip to officedweller's previous post). does beedie have other sites in vancouver that could work a similar deal?


an empty lot now, a tent city back in the olympics


Current plans, for non-market housing.

---------

But not even that, perhaps, selling off the site piecemeal with smaller developments not putting more price pressure on surrounding areas? more public open space, perhaps fronting columbia across from the CCC? beedie may hang onto the land and perhaps try a similar project, but a re-look at chinatown plans IMO would be useful.

Last edited by mezzanine; Nov 9, 2017 at 8:02 AM.
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  #587  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:00 AM
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No matter happens with this site there is going to be price pressures everywhere. And I would like to see heavy gentrification occur in this and surrounding areas. Not sure why you or others are against gentrification. If it weren't for it that area would still look like that old pic you posted
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  #588  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:48 AM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
No matter happens with this site there is going to be price pressures everywhere. And I would like to see heavy gentrification occur in this and surrounding areas. Not sure why you or others are against gentrification. If it weren't for it that area would still look like that old pic you posted
I can understand your point, but the 105 keefer decision by the CoV wasn't made in a vacuum. Attitudes to gentrification, development and housing are changing in vancouver, especially in this ongoing real estate boom/crisis.

i'm not going to hang my hat on beedie giving up and dealing the land to the city but a lot of people, myself included, have sympathies with the decision.

Last edited by mezzanine; Nov 9, 2017 at 8:04 AM.
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  #589  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post

The 105 keefer decision by the CoV wasn't made in a vacuum..
Of course not. It was a calculated capitulation to a militant and politically-organized group of welfare/anti-development activists which wants Chinatown and the DTES to remain an eternal poverty zone, even if it turns to rubble. The question is whether the rest of the city’s citizens will remain content to be barred from breathing life and energy into the currently sick but potentially thriving historic heart of Vancouver and restoring it to a flourishing place all Vancouverites can enjoy.
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  #590  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 1:24 PM
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I thought that reviving / gentrifying this area was one of the reasons for tearing down the viaducts?

Seriously this issue is a pretty good microcosm on how political correctness and victim-hood is being perverted for political power.

It also urks me how gentrification has been made out to be an evil force. The neighborhoods in question do need to change. There is no excuse for their current state. Of course things cant just be plowed over and programs / accommodations must be made for those within the communities, but that doesn't mean that they can continue the plight of their neighborhoods uninterrupted. Compromises and change must come from both sides. These knee jerk objections to change are only making the problems worse.
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  #591  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
I thought that reviving / gentrifying this area was one of the reasons for tearing down the viaducts?

Seriously this issue is a pretty good microcosm on how political correctness and victim-hood is being perverted for political power.

It also urks me how gentrification has been made out to be an evil force. The neighborhoods in question do need to change. There is no excuse for their current state. Of course things cant just be plowed over and programs / accommodations must be made for those within the communities, but that doesn't mean that they can continue the plight of their neighborhoods uninterrupted. Compromises and change must come from both sides. These knee jerk objections to change are only making the problems worse.
Well said.

Only thing I would add is that policy does need to address the plight of the working poor.

I have great sympathy for people holding down 2 jobs and still being driven to homelessness in the city.

I think more focus needs to be put on those people and perhaps slightly less, or just different type of attention for the addicted and mentally ill.
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  #592  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if Gill and Dobrovolny are fired right away if Vision loses it's majority. Rightly so.
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Originally Posted by csbvan View Post
It was a decision by the Development Permit Board, not council.
Development Permit Board are City Staff that operate for the most part under the mandate of Mayor & Council in the City of Vancouver. As a result they will vote accordingly. If there is a new party / mayor in power in the next civic election you can bet there will be a cleaning of house of key staff members.
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  #593  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 5:39 PM
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One has to wonder how receptive the Development Permit Board would be to 2nd and 3rd generation Anglo-Scottish pensioners protesting the loss of affordable housing in Kerrisdale due to development pressures...
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  #594  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
Sorry, but looking at that picture with the plaza makes me question even more why the city would want the lot. There is already public space there, would the city just turn it into a bigger plaza? It would be better to have restaurants/ bars/stores with residential above fronting the plaza instead and cover up all the backsides of those buildings
Maybe they want to turn it into a Tiananman Square? Gregor's photo hanging on the cultural centre instead of Mao?
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  #595  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post

link. I really see a lot of potential for public space here. I can see why the city is considering obtaining the lot.
It should be pretty clear to everyone from this photo that the scale of what Beadie was proposing really didn't fit into the context of the neighbourhood, particularly given its status as a National Historic Site. Whether forumers like it or not, that status isn't going to change. There's a list of National Historic Sites in BC here. Many are individual buildings, some are neighbourhoods. Can you imagine a building of the Beadie scale being plopped down in the parking lot at Fort Langley or next to the concentrator at Britannia Mines?

IMHO the best thing now is for the city to acquire the site and build the kind of housing the community wants, in a style that suits the area.
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  #596  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
It should be pretty clear to everyone from this photo that the scale of what Beadie was proposing really didn't fit into the context of the neighbourhood, particularly given its status as a National Historic Site. Whether forumers like it or not, that status isn't going to change. There's a list of National Historic Sites in BC here. Many are individual buildings, some are neighbourhoods. Can you imagine a building of the Beadie scale being plopped down in the parking lot at Fort Langley or next to the concentrator at Britannia Mines?

IMHO the best thing now is for the city to acquire the site and build the kind of housing the community wants, in a style that suits the area.
Sure, there are condos of larger scale immediately to the right of this location. Nevermind the fact that the photo is taken from a godawful multi-storey parkade/mall which does a terrible job of fitting in with the neighbourhood and is grossly underutilised most of the time.

For reference, the entire neighbourhood is a national historic site. This includes several new condos, the International Village mall, etc. If you want to claim that this lot is historic, or the adjacent chunk of the city is; well it's not. This is basically an expansion of Chinatown's footprint.



Note that Westminster is Main, and Dupont is now Pender.
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  #597  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
Sure, there are condos of larger scale immediately to the right of this location. Nevermind the fact that the photo is taken from a godawful multi-storey parkade/mall which does a terrible job of fitting in with the neighbourhood and is grossly underutilised most of the time.

For reference, the entire neighbourhood is a national historic site. This includes several new condos, the International Village mall, etc. If you want to claim that this lot is historic, or the adjacent chunk of the city is; well it's not. This is basically an expansion of Chinatown's footprint.


Note that Westminster is Main, and Dupont is now Pender.
I wasn't claiming just this site was, please reread my post. The neighbourhood is and that makes development of this scale inappropriate. If you're referring to the Henderson condo towers, those were completed before the designation.
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  #598  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:23 PM
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Some more context:



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  #599  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:25 PM
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I wasn't claiming just this site was, please reread my post. The neighbourhood is and that makes development of this scale inappropriate. If you're referring to the Henderson condo towers, those were completed before the designation.
Hah, no not the Henderson buildings. Look Here.

It's just down the block. 3 new condo buildings built within the last 2 years. All 8 floors and taller. Bluesky is all rental, the 2 others are market housing.

These NIMBYs are about 10 years too late. The development train has long left the station here.
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  #600  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:49 PM
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Well said.

Only thing I would add is that policy does need to address the plight of the working poor.

I have great sympathy for people holding down 2 jobs and still being driven to homelessness in the city.

I think more focus needs to be put on those people and perhaps slightly less, or just different type of attention for the addicted and mentally ill.
Agree 100%
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