Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Old&New

I think this would be a well used street-car line, geared toward the local population, with more frequent stops than light-rail.

I like this design very much. One thing that gives me a lot of pause on streetcar projects is the specter of autonomous vehicles competing for the short/local trips. I think in order to compete cities will need to offer these kinds of lines for free or at very low cost. I think where fully autonomous vehicles will shine is on these short trips where they will charge .30-.65 cents per mile with maybe a flat base charge. In that scenario these kinds of lines will have a hard time competing. I think a wide free or cheap fare zone is a must or cities will be overrun with self driving cars clogging their streets.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

That streetcar route you’ve proposed is actually almost the same as the one the city had proposed... with the exception it turns north on state street, then runs east on 100 south instead of 200 south. That way it distances itself from 4th south TRAX while being a block closer to the population living in the avenues.

If they wanted a line closer to the avenues, why wouldn't they just add an additional line similar to this?

[Hatman]

I'm wary of putting a streetcar along 200 South, mostly because just 1,500 feet to the south there is the TRAX university line. There is also that mile-long segment between about 700 east and the University that is distinctly single-home residential, and really not the best place for a streetcar to operate. However I am totally in favor of a bus rapid transit line, or a bus-plus line along that route. I think if you have frequent buses - about every 5 minutes - stopping at very established stations (look like TRAX stations), you can create the same effect of a streetcar line without spending the extra millions of dollars by putting railroad tracks in the street.
As much as I love trains, I have to stick to my mantra of 'Let Trains be Trains and Let Buses be Buses.'

Not to change the discussion, but I'm curious as to what people of this forum think of this idea:
A shortcut road between Tooele and Herriman would cost $329 million, causing one leader to say that’s ‘just not realistic’
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017...-leader-to-say-thats-just-not-realistic/

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I'm wary of putting a streetcar along 200 South, mostly because just 1,500 feet to the south there is the TRAX university line. There is also that mile-long segment between about 700 east and the University that is distinctly single-home residential, and really not the best place for a streetcar to operate. However I am totally in favor of a bus rapid transit line, or a bus-plus line along that route. I think if you have frequent buses - about every 5 minutes - stopping at very established stations (look like TRAX stations), you can create the same effect of a streetcar line without spending the extra millions of dollars by putting railroad tracks in the street.
As much as I love trains, I have to stick to my mantra of 'Let Trains be Trains and Let Buses be Buses.'...

Well we used to have them... If only we had had the foresight to keep them; If only we had had a Seer in our midst.

[bob rulz]

I think we should add BRT for sure along 100 South. Over time, if BRT is very successful, then we can upgrade to a streetcar.

Originally Posted by Always Sunny in SLC

I like this design very much. One thing that gives me a lot of pause on streetcar projects is the specter of autonomous vehicles competing for the short/local trips. I think in order to compete cities will need to offer these kinds of lines for free or at very low cost. I think where fully autonomous vehicles will shine is on these short trips where they will charge .30-.65 cents per mile with maybe a flat base charge. In that scenario these kinds of lines will have a hard time competing. I think a wide free or cheap fare zone is a must or cities will be overrun with self driving cars clogging their streets.

I still think it's going to be 20+ years before autonomous vehicles - without drivers (meaning cheaper) - are going to be widely available.

[Ironweed]

[QUOTE=Old&New;7978824]Well we used to have them...

This is so true, and utterly tragic. The stupidity and lack of foresight by city/urban planners throughout the country at the time of the demise of rail transit in the late 1930's-1950's was unprecedented. The automobile was the future! It Sure was... A future disaster... Some could argue that there was a conspiracy to rip up the rails. It very well may have been. Allegedly tire, auto, and oil companies bought, then ripped up rail transit systems from LA to Bangor Maine. Utah used to have a very robust rail transit network. The SLC trolley system was one of the best in the country. The Bamburger ran from Ogden to SLC. There was once an interurban that went right up highway 89 from Payson to Salt Lake City. Can you imagine how valuable those would be today?

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Not to change the discussion, but I'm curious as to what people of this forum think of this idea:
A shortcut road between Tooele and Herriman would cost $329 million, causing one leader to say that’s ‘just not realistic’
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017...-leader-to-say-thats-just-not-realistic/

I love the idea of a Herriman-Tooele road, but not quite at that price. If it could be done for, say, $100M, I'd be all for it.

Perhaps if Rio Tinto generously offered to set some of their giant bulldozers loose in a few short topographically-challenged sections of Butterfield Canyon...

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by i-215

I love the idea of a Herriman-Tooele road, but not quite at that price. If it could be done for, say, $100M, I'd be all for it.

Perhaps if Rio Tinto generously offered to set some of their giant bulldozers loose in a few short topographically-challenged sections of Butterfield Canyon...

This would actually be a perfect case study in induced sprawl. Sprawl is happening in Tooele, Stockton, and up at Stansbury and Lake Point, but at a moderate pace. If we were to build a nice shiny new road that made getting out there easy and relatively enjoyable that would unleash a torrent of demand for housing. Then next thing you know people would be saying, "Look, there is so much demand to live out here".

[bob rulz]

[QUOTE=Ironweed;7979486]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Well we used to have them...

This is so true, and utterly tragic. The stupidity and lack of foresight by city/urban planners throughout the country at the time of the demise of rail transit in the late 1930's-1950's was unprecedented. The automobile was the future! It Sure was... A future disaster... Some could argue that there was a conspiracy to rip up the rails. It very well may have been. Allegedly tire, auto, and oil companies bought, then ripped up rail transit systems from LA to Bangor Maine. Utah used to have a very robust rail transit network. The SLC trolley system was one of the best in the country. The Bamburger ran from Ogden to SLC. There was once an interurban that went right up highway 89 from Payson to Salt Lake City. Can you imagine how valuable those would be today?

Rails were ripped up because they were losing money at an unprecedented rate. Pressure and maybe, in some cases, perhaps even direct collusion, from the auto companies undoubtedly hastened their demise, but street cars were going to disappear one way or another. It's easy to criticize those decisions with 70 years of hindsight, but at the time urban rail looked like a dead industry to pretty much everybody.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Ironweed

Well we used to have them...

This is so true, and utterly tragic. The stupidity and lack of foresight by city/urban planners throughout the country at the time of the demise of rail transit in the late 1930's-1950's was unprecedented. The automobile was the future! It Sure was... A future disaster... Some could argue that there was a conspiracy to rip up the rails. It very well may have been. Allegedly tire, auto, and oil companies bought, then ripped up rail transit systems from LA to Bangor Maine. Utah used to have a very robust rail transit network. The SLC trolley system was one of the best in the country. The Bamburger ran from Ogden to SLC. There was once an interurban that went right up highway 89 from Payson to Salt Lake City. Can you imagine how valuable those would be today?

Rails were ripped up because they were losing money at an unprecedented rate. Pressure and maybe, in some cases, perhaps even direct collusion, from the auto companies undoubtedly hastened their demise, but street cars were going to disappear one way or another. It's easy to criticize those decisions with 70 years of hindsight, but at the time urban rail looked like a dead industry to pretty much everybody.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Rails were ripped up because they were losing money at an unprecedented rate. Pressure and maybe, in some cases, perhaps even direct collusion, from the auto companies undoubtedly hastened their demise, but street cars were going to disappear one way or another. It's easy to criticize those decisions with 70 years of hindsight, but at the time urban rail looked like a dead industry to pretty much everybody.

The GM streetcar conspiracy was totally real. It went to court and GM was found guilty. For buying up and destroying America's streetcar lines it was fined a total of... $5,000.

But it is true that the streetcar lines were losing money. Why were they losing money? They had made money before, and the populations in cities were not decreasing. What changed?

Cities started paying to pave and maintain their roads. And if the city was going to pay for the road, what incentive was there for the trolley companies to pay for rails in the road?

It's interesting that even in the 1920's and 30's, the streetcar companies in Salt Lake City started toying with the idea of a trolley-bus. Use the electric wires of the trolley system, but get rid of the rails in the street. Here are some pictures:


Link: https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ElectricRailroads/Salt-Lake-City-Trolley-Coaches/

So the real reason we have no streetcars today is because the government pays for good roads.
Now, what happens if we develop autonomous vehicles that keep track of their exact weights and locations? And what if we change the way we pay for road use from a flat gas tax to something more accurate and nuanced, so that each vehicle pays for how much damage it does to the road (by weight per axle) and by when/where it drove (vehicle tracking)? Suddenly in this case the argument for streetcars comes back, because if you're going to run heavy transit vehicles up and down a set corridor with a high frequency, it makes sense to own the infrastructure you will use. And since streetcars are cheaper to operate than a bus (per rider per mile), a forward-thinking transit agency (or private company?) could set a streetcar resurgence in motion.

But this won't happen until we create a more fair and unbiased way of paying for infrastructure.

[Hatman]

Speaking about the cost per mile per rider, the Salt Lake Tribune recently did some good reporting on UTA, though it still does its best to cast a bad image at the beginning:
What are UTA’s most and least popular services?
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017...umbers-dont-always-tell-the-whole-story/

Here's some highlights:

Most Riders Per Mile
1) 701 Blue Line Light Rail - 7.9 riders
2) 920 Rose Park (West High) Fixed-Route Bus - 7.6 riders
3) 919 Fairpark (West High) Fixed-Route Bus - 7 riders
4) 704 Green Line Light Rail - 7 riders
5) 720 S-Line Street Car - 6.6 riders
6) 703 Red Line Light Rail - 6.5 riders
7) 608 DTSI / 2nd Street Fixed-Route Bus - 5.3 riders
8) 606 Monroe Blvd.* Fixed-Route Bus - 5.1 riders
9) 841 UVU (Orem Station) Fixed-Route Bus - 4.2 riders
10) 2 200 South Fixed-Route Bus - 3.8 riders

My reaction:
- Yep. All the TRAX lines are there. I could have told you that.
- What? The S-Line? Wohoo!
- No FrontRunner? I guess that's because it travels so many miles compared to other routes. If we were to use the estimated 30,000+ daily riders (supposing double-tracking and doubling the frequency of trains to TRAX levels), I wonder how it would compare?
- I wasn't familiar most of these bus routes, so I linked the routes in the list. 619 and 620 appear to be close to downtown and go in opposite directions of each other through the Fair Park and Rose Park. Those are cool routes, and I'm glad they have high usage.
- Route 2 is pretty much what Old & New proposed for the streetcar line. I say make it a Bus-Plus route, increase the frequency to 5 minutes, and see how much higher up it goes on the bus list.
- The remaining bus routes are strange little routes that are probably on this list because of how short they are.

The least used routes (per-mile) are mostly FLEX routes. Those are mostly just political favors to certain communities and serve very little actually transit function.

Here's another list:

Lowest Cost Per Rider
1) 701 Blue Line Light Rail - $0.56 per rider
2) 608 DTSI / 2nd Street Fixed-Route Bus - $0.65 per rider
3) 703 Red Line Light Rail - $0.66 per rider
4) 704 Green Line Light Rail - $0.67 per rider
5) 920 Rose Park (West High) Fixed-Route Bus - $0.69 per rider
6) 919 Fairpark (West High) Fixed-Route Bus - $0.69 per rider
7) 841 UVU (Orem Station) Fixed-Route Bus - $0.89 per rider
8) 720 S-Line (Sugar House) Street Car - $0.91 per rider
9) 606 Monroe Blvd. Fixed-Route Bus - $1.26 per rider
10) 2 200 South Fixed-Route Bus - $1.39 per rider

Mostly the same characters, in the same general places. Who'da thought?

Nice to see some good in-depth reporting for once. These charts show how the rail investment was totally worth it, even though it is currently being blamed for so much of UTA's debt and other problems.

[billbillbillbill]

Unfortunately, the 2 buses I take most frequently are on the most expensive list. I guess I should say thanks for your subsidizing my occasional ride from Riverton. I don't really see these routes doing much better until the extension of the red line makes its way around if that ever happens. Both Riverton Mayoral candidates were completely against trax running down 12600 south.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Not to change the discussion, but I'm curious as to what people of this forum think of this idea:
A shortcut road between Tooele and Herriman would cost $329 million, causing one leader to say that’s ‘just not realistic’
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017...-leader-to-say-thats-just-not-realistic/

I drove through middle canyon last week. I wanted to see if I could drive all the way from Tooele to Herriman but after a few minutes the road became a dirt road and I was weary of taking my car on a dirt road. Middle canyon is actually a very beautiful canyon. More so than what I expected.

I think that as Tooele and Salt Lake Counties continue to grow an I-80 alternative will become necessary but it would be a shame if middles canyon became too congested.

[billbillbillbill]

Originally Posted by RC14

I drove through middle canyon last week. I wanted to see if I could drive all the way from Tooele to Herriman but after a few minutes the road became a dirt road and I was weary of taking my car on a dirt road. Middle canyon is actually a very beautiful canyon. More so than what I expected.

I think that as Tooele and Salt Lake Counties continue to grow an I-80 alternative will become necessary but it would be a shame if middles canyon became too congested.

I have done that route a few times from Herriman over to Tooele and I understand the cost they are estimating. It is very steep and narrow at the top of Butterfield.
Middle Canyon was very nice and looks like a lot of recreation that would need to be relocated if they had to widen the road. I assume this idea will go the way of the bridge over Utah lake

[tygr]

Originally Posted by Hatman

And what if we change the way we pay for road use from a flat gas tax to something more accurate and nuanced, so that each vehicle pays for how much damage it does to the road (by weight per axle) and by when/where it drove (vehicle tracking)? Suddenly in this case the argument for streetcars comes back, because if you're going to run heavy transit vehicles up and down a set corridor with a high frequency, it makes sense to own the infrastructure you will use.

I've always thought we should get rid of the flat age based property tax and move to a model that requires you to settle up each year (and when you sell your vehicle) to pay a per mile tax for your use.

The age based model is also backwards... newer cars are taxed the most yet have the most safety features, burn cleaner, and get better mileage than older cars. Older cars pay the least tax and contribute more to pollution and are higher risks for their occupants and other drivers.

The grandma that buys a brand new car and only drives it to church on Sunday and a once a week grocery trip should not pay more tax than the person who chooses to drive a county or two from home to their workplace in their old beater car.

Don't get me going on the state's collection of sales tax every time the exact same car is sold.

[Hatman]

I wouldn't dismiss the Tooele-Harriman connector road yet. Perhaps we don't have the money for it now, but once the years and years of required studies are completed, perhaps that will change.

The bridge over Utah Lake is a pretty dumb idea because going around the lake isn't that hard or that slow. If I-80 closes, the only other way to get from the Salt Lake Valley to Tooele is to go around the south end of the Oquirrh mountains along State Road 73. This adds over an hour of driving and more than 50 miles to your drive.
What alternatives could we create to I-80 around Lake Point?
Perhaps building a parallel freeway, like was done with I-15 and the Legacy Parkway. But no, this won't work because I-80 is usually closed due to weather events which would also affect the parallel road.

The Tooele-Harriman road, as I understand it, would upgrade the dirt road through middle canyon (Tooele side) to a 50 mph paved road, and would construct a brand-new 50 mph road in Butterfield Canyon (Salt Lake side) along the south side of the canyon. A new mile-long tunnel would connect these two roads. Both roads would have wide shoulders for bicycling and parking for trailheads along the way. Essentially, they would be trying to make it like the roads up big and little cottonwood canyons, except that it would also act as a relief valve for traffic when I-80 closes.
I think it could be justified within another 10-15 years, if the population continues to grow and no one else can think of a better alternative route to I-80. In the meanwhile, I think that transit projects - specifically BRT and FrontRunner improvements - would be much better recipients of $300 million, or whatever it is this road would cost.

[delts145]

Thank you Hatman. You just anticipated my next question, the what about and where about of a tunnel.

[RC14]

A new section of the Mountain View corridor opens next weekend.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if UDOT has a time frame for when the actual freeway will be built?

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Late 2020’s for initial 3 lanes in each direction, 2040 ish for 5 lanes each direction. Or whenever traffic demand necessitates it.