Saskatoon Construction III

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Crisis

I completely disagree with you on this one. As others have pointed out, there is a huge difference between a highrise at Five Corners and a seven storey condo in the middle of a residential neighbourhood comprised almost entirely of single family homes.

The area is currently zoned R2 and R2A, meaning 1 and 2 storey residential, as well as low-denisty residential infill. To change it to RM5 (High-Density Multiple Unit dwellings) is a huge change. If the area was already zoned for high-density and people simply didn't like it getting built there, that would be a different matter. But when they are sinking over a million dollars into a home on the understanding that it is in a low density neighbourhood, they have a right to be pissed if the rules are then changed after they've made that investment.

I have to disagree with you as well. NOT in the middle of a neighbourhood.... Less than one block off of Broadway, a few houses down in fact. This is not going to tear apart a neighbourhood, it will help spread density and maybe actually help bring more people to the inner city.

[Wyku]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

I have to disagree with you as well. NOT in the middle of a neighbourhood.... Less than one block off of Broadway, a few houses down in fact. This is not going to tear apart a neighbourhood, it will help spread density and maybe actually help bring more people to the inner city.

I thought the same thing when doing a "drive-by" on Google Streetview--the big high-rise at 5-corners is just down the street. Also, the proposed building is tiered and not a giant square blob which should hopefully help cut down on the feel of its overall size and won't seem that much more intrusive then the large church that's already (was?) there.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by Wyku

I thought the same thing when doing a "drive-by" on Google Streetview--the big high-rise at 5-corners is just down the street. Also, the proposed building is tiered and not a giant square blob which should hopefully help cut down on the feel of its overall size and won't seem that much more intrusive then the large church that's already (was?) there.

I also agree, was looking at it from all angles, and it makes a lot of sense that in time that entire block will become much higher density because it is a very walkable location. A block to the north not so much. a zoning change will make sense here, but it's a matter of when not if. Mandating it to be 4 stories instead of 7 isn't going to stop this particular block from redevelopment. The street has a very similar feel to 4th ave where Shangi-la just got built, and a 6 story across the street.

[Crisis]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

I have to disagree with you as well. NOT in the middle of a neighbourhood.... Less than one block off of Broadway, a few houses down in fact. This is not going to tear apart a neighbourhood, it will help spread density and maybe actually help bring more people to the inner city.

I think that the bolded part is where the disconnect lies. I don't believe that the current residents of that neighbourhood want increased density and more people in their "inner city" neighbourhood. Contrary to the opinion of most of the participants on this site, not everyone wants a more densely populated Saskatoon. There is a reason that most of Saskatoon is comprised of single family homes - it's not due to lack of multi-family options - it's because single family detached homes are the preferred choice of most Saskatoon residents.

This is a topic that comes up repeatedly on this discussion board and opinions have not changed greatly through the years. I'm not saying that either high-density or low-density is right or wrong, simply that they are different and appeal to different people. I don't believe we are going to change each others minds through further debate about the issue and I'm OK with that. I hope you are, too.

[jigglysquishy]

I don't think it's because it's the preferred option, but rather that it's by far the most heavily subsidized

SFDs will always be choice number one, but the ratio is skewed due to suburban subsidy.

The density answer has always been 4-6 story buildings. Every corner in the inner city should be zoned to accommodate that.

[hunter12]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

I don't think it's because it's the preferred option, but rather that it's by far the most heavily subsidized

SFDs will always be choice number one, but the ratio is skewed due to suburban subsidy.

The density answer has always been 4-6 story buildings. Every corner in the inner city should be zoned to accommodate that.

My understanding is that the sale of lots pays for all infrastructure, streets, parks etc including a portion of interchanges. The city land branch makes money from land development so do you have more details as to how it is heavily subsidized?

Although density may be the answer I think most people in Saskatoon want a single family home with yard, garage etc.

I couldn't wait until I could afford to get out of an apartment and into a house. But I will likely move to a condo some day when I'm over 75.

[molasses]

Originally Posted by Crisis

I think that the bolded part is where the disconnect lies. I don't believe that the current residents of that neighbourhood want increased density and more people in their "inner city" neighbourhood. Contrary to the opinion of most of the participants on this site, not everyone wants a more densely populated Saskatoon. There is a reason that most of Saskatoon is comprised of single family homes - it's not due to lack of multi-family options - it's because single family detached homes are the preferred choice of most Saskatoon residents.

This is a topic that comes up repeatedly on this discussion board and opinions have not changed greatly through the years. I'm not saying that either high-density or low-density is right or wrong, simply that they are different and appeal to different people. I don't believe we are going to change each others minds through further debate about the issue and I'm OK with that. I hope you are, too.

But people also want transit that works, and walkable, mixed use areas with nice (successful) shops and restaurants. They also want their taxes to stay low and the city centre to be active and exciting, and sprawl to be limited (which is something many Nutana residents are particularly vocal about). They've told the city this repeatedly. So there is definitely a big disconnect, but it seems like it is more between what people say they want and what has been built in this city.

I'd suspect there are people that would happily live in townhouse or condo in a nice urban neighbourhood (i.e. Nutana), that don't purely because there are such limited options, especially with regard to townhouses.

[molasses]

Also, looks like this project has passed MPC.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1509537761

[casper]

Originally Posted by molasses

But people also want transit that works, and walkable, mixed use areas with nice (successful) shops and restaurants. They also want their taxes to stay low and the city centre to be active and exciting, and sprawl to be limited (which is something many Nutana residents are particularly vocal about). They've told the city this repeatedly. So there is definitely a big disconnect, but it seems like it is more between what people say they want and what has been built in this city.

I'd suspect there are people that would happily live in townhouse or condo in a nice urban neighbourhood (i.e. Nutana), that don't purely because there are such limited options, especially with regard to townhouses.

I think you just described Willowgrove (or most of the new development for that matter). The other new sub-burbs are the same. Town square with mixed-use commercial. Dense condo/townhouse core. Small single family lots backing onto walkable linear parks and sidewalks on both sides of each street.

[mitchellk12]

Originally Posted by molasses

Also, looks like this project has passed MPC.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1509537761

how tall is 7 storeys? if im looking at River Centre 1, thats 25M at 5 storeys?

i dont see this building anymore than 25metres in height seeing as its a residential building. it should be ok for that area, as mentioned theres a 12 storey one block down the street. if this was more in the "d-lish restaurant" area, then i could see this being a big issue and causing more concerns. seeing as its so close to the riverbank and the BID, i think the city will allow development to proceed.

thats just my opinion.

[molasses]

Originally Posted by casper

I think you just described Willowgrove (or most of the new development for that matter). The other new sub-burbs are the same. Town square with mixed-use commercial. Dense condo/townhouse core. Small single family lots backing onto walkable linear parks and sidewalks on both sides of each street.

To a degree yeah, and that is the thing that is funny with comments about people wanting to live in single family houses. In new neighbourhoods the housing mix is often around 50% single family, 50% multifamily, despite the fact that they are new neighbourhoods with less amenities than the neighbourhoods bordering downtown.

So obviously there is demand for multifamily residential options in Saskatoon, but those options are mostly in the suburbs. Imagine if there were the same options (i.e. more townhouses) in more urban areas that have existing nearby commercial and other amenities. I'd imagine there would be a significant amount of people who would find those options more attractive than the same housing format in the suburbs.

[Wyku]

Originally Posted by molasses

Also, looks like this project has passed MPC.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1509537761

She said the structure would alter the city's skyline and lead to more projects of similar type.

"The riverbank belongs to all of us as Saskatonians," Kaselnikoff told Tuesday's meeting. "We ask that the city protect the Saskatoon skyline."

Will nobody think of the children skyline!!!

[The Bess]

Here's an article from last April on new areas paying for themselves, by the way thanks for all the different views, makes you look at issues from different angles.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/...n-not-paying-for-itself-report-1.3041439

[Arts]

Originally Posted by hunter12

My understanding is that the sale of lots pays for all infrastructure, streets, parks etc including a portion of interchanges. The city land branch makes money from land development so do you have more details as to how it is heavily subsidized?

Although density may be the answer I think most people in Saskatoon want a single family home with yard, garage etc.

I couldn't wait until I could afford to get out of an apartment and into a house. But I will likely move to a condo some day when I'm over 75.

I believe the funds raised by selling the lots covers the capital costs to acquire the land, develop it and service it with infrastructure, however it does not cover the ongoing maintenance costs. The cost to maintain SFD neighborhood (clear snow, sweep streets, collect trash, build and staff fire stations, mow lawns in parks and municipal buffers, repair broken water mains and fix aging roads) exceeds the amount collected from taxes in those neighborhoods... ie they are subsidized.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by molasses

...sprawl to be limited (which is something many Nutana residents are particularly vocal about)...

Yes, I have heard many people I know that live in Nutana say exactly this - that they hate urban sprawl and love Nutana because of it's location and proximity to Broadway, downtown and 8th st. Then when change happens which is in harmony with their ideas they become resistant and vocal. NIMBY (even my girlfriend who lives in Nutana is prone to nimbyism).

[jigglysquishy]

Originally Posted by Arts

I believe the funds raised by selling the lots covers the capital costs to acquire the land, develop it and service it with infrastructure, however it does not cover the ongoing maintenance costs. The cost to maintain SFD neighborhood (clear snow, sweep streets, collect trash, build and staff fire stations, mow lawns in parks and municipal buffers, repair broken water mains and fix aging roads) exceeds the amount collected from taxes in those neighborhoods... ie they are subsidized.

It only covers a portion of the costs. New schools, police, fire, parks, and transit come out of general revenue. New interchanges are only partially covered by lot sales.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

It only covers a portion of the costs. New schools, police, fire, parks, and transit come out of general revenue. New interchanges are only partially covered by lot sales.

Your making my point for me, only better!

Also, I measured in google maps and from the corner of University & 13th to the heart of downtown (somewhere around 3rd ave and 21st st) is only 800m as the crow flies. I find it bizarre that we'd consider a few large detached houses more important that having high density (or even medium density) in the very center of the city. I'd think zoning changes to accommodate density in the urban core would be considered the sign of a healthy city?

[Ricopedra]

edit

[The Bess]

I'm not crisis but here you go on finacing new growth report

https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/f...anagement/hemson_study_update_report.pdf

[The Bess]

Here is full report if your interested

https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/f...h_study_hemson_consulting_april_2015.pdf