LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A shuttle bus from a re-purposed parking lot is not transit. Frankly many bars offer this service; there is no reason for the city to get involved.

I think you missed the point. LRT will definitely be used from day 1 in the east and south where people can get somewhere useful.

In the west there is not much point having people take the LRT 1 stop to Tunnies Pasture only to transfer to a bus, so we might have to temporarily use shuttles from LeBreton until Stage 2 West is complete (then again, traffic will be quieter at Tunnies for the buses to make a quick exit). Once we can get them a decent distance to a transfer point (Baseline or Moodie) then the LRT will be more useful. Even then it won't be optimal, and extending to Kanata and Barrhaven will become a higher priority.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The 'normal' transit system is not equipped to handle major sporting events in the evening or on weekends. If Lansdowne didn't offer special shuttles to RedBlack games, I would drive as we did for years when we had the Renegades and Rough Riders. The old model of just adding a few extra runs to the existing bus routes simply does not work. I remember the complaints back in the old days. This is not unprecedented in other cities. I saw it in Calgary for Stampeders games. I saw it in Atlanta for an Atlanta Braves game that I attended. The point of having special transit service is to encourage people to use transit in order to limit congestion. If this was not done at Lansdowne, Bank Street would be a parking lot. Likewise at Lebreton when the new arena is eventually built. We cannot promote intensification without improving transit as needed. For major events, it is needed and needs to be encouraged.

I agree that there is a need to up service levels to address special events, but this should be done through the regular transit system (by increasing frequencies on certain routes, etc). In any given neighbourhood there are only going to be a handful of people coming from the game. Most local routes would have little trouble accommodating the extra passengers.

And using regular transit encourages people to familiarize themselves with the transit system and incentives getting a Presto card. This may encourage people to take transit in the future.

Lansdowne has specific constraints (being in a primarily residential neighbourhood with no arterial roads and no rapid transit infrastructure as well). Lebreton is served by two rapid transit routes and a significant amount of road infrastructure.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think you missed the point. LRT will definitely be used from day 1 in the east and south where people can get somewhere useful.

In the west there is not much point having people take the LRT 1 stop to Tunnies Pasture only to transfer to a bus, so we might have to temporarily use shuttles from LeBreton until Stage 2 West is complete (then again, traffic will be quieter at Tunnies for the buses to make a quick exit). Once we can get them a decent distance to a transfer point (Baseline or Moodie) then the LRT will be more useful. Even then it won't be optimal, and extending to Kanata and Barrhaven will become a higher priority.

Having to transfer after 1 or 2 stops is somewhat unfortunate, but there is a huge bus transfer facility at Tunney's.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A shuttle bus from a re-purposed parking lot is not transit. Frankly many bars offer this service; there is no reason for the city to get involved.

I don't know why you are arguing with success. Lansdowne gets 56% modal share. What does CTC get? 5 or 10% with your bar option? The latter is the preferred option??

So the city should not adjust transit to meet demand and should not encourage private business to pay for supplemental transit service? This makes no sense.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree. You are the one who is saying we should encourage people to drive downtown and walk instead of taking transit.

I don't think the city should be taking a position either way. If people want to take transit then great (for most people it will be the most sensible option). I just don't think I should have to pay for your transit (unless you're paying for my beer).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I agree that there is a need to up service levels to address special events, but this should be done through the regular transit system (by increasing frequencies on certain routes, etc). In any given neighbourhood there are only going to be a handful of people coming from the game. Most local routes would have little trouble accommodating the extra passengers.

And using regular transit encourages people to familiarize themselves with the transit system and incentives getting a Presto card. This may encourage people to take transit in the future.

Lansdowne has specific constraints (being in a primarily residential neighbourhood with no arterial roads and no rapid transit infrastructure as well). Lebreton is served by two rapid transit routes and a significant amount of road infrastructure.

I am not sure why you have something against event service where it makes sense. I am not sure whether that will be necessary at Lebreton, but we need to keep an open mind to maximize use. If somebody is willing to pay for it, why would you be opposed? Certainly, event service will continue to Gatineau from Lebreton.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I agree that there is a need to up service levels to address special events, but this should be done through the regular transit system (by increasing frequencies on certain routes, etc). In any given neighbourhood there are only going to be a handful of people coming from the game. Most local routes would have little trouble accommodating the extra passengers.

Certainly using regular bus routes operating at an increased event frequency from key transfer points would be a likely option, especially once Stage 2 is complete. This has nothing to do with whether there event ticket acts as an OC Transpo ticket or not.

And using regular transit encourages people to familiarize themselves with the transit system and incentives getting a Presto card. This may encourage people to take transit in the future.

Someone going to 2 or 3 events a year will hardly be incentivized to buy a Presto card to save 5 cents per trip. It is more important to encourage them to use transit at all and get familiar with it. The best way to do that is bundle their fare into their ticket.

Lebreton is served by two rapid transit routes and a significant amount of road infrastructure.

What significant road infrastructure?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't know why you are arguing with success. Lansdowne gets 56% modal share. What does CTC get? 5 or 10% with your bar option? The latter is the preferred option??

So the city should not adjust transit to meet demand and should not encourage private business to pay for supplemental transit service? This makes no sense.

Because it is a success tied to a particular set of circumstances that is not necessarily applicable to other situations.

I don't think spectator sports should be treated as a different category. OC transpo should adjust its service to meet demand, whether it is tied to employment, shopping, entertainment, eating or whatever.

Frankly, I think the Lansdowne policy is odd, where you're encouraged with free parking to drive to go to a movie, the gym or to shop, but then they give the Asian food festival an $18,000 bill for extra transit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think the city should be taking a position either way. If people want to take transit then great (for most people it will be the most sensible option). I just don't think I should have to pay for your transit (unless you're paying for my beer).

The city is interested because they don't want to have to upgrade all of the roads to LeBreton to handle the surge in event traffic. And why should I pay for an 8 lane highway to LeBreton with my taxes so that you can drive to and from events when we have a perfectly good LRT system?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What significant road infrastructure?

4 lane freeway from the west, 6 lane arterial road leading from downtown, 6 lane arterial road coming from Gatineau, 2-4 lane arterial road coming from gatineau, 4 lane arterial road coming from downtown.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

then they give the Asian food festival an $18,000 bill for extra transit.

That was a mistake. Events that are free to attend should be exempt as they are providing a service to the public.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

4 lane freeway from the west, 6 lane arterial road leading from downtown, 6 lane arterial road coming from Gatineau, 2-4 lane arterial road coming from gatineau, 4 lane arterial road coming from downtown.

Can you name names? How many of those roads actually go where people want to go without dumping them onto smaller city streets? Those might be great for people in old Ottawa/Hull, but not much use for anyone else. Most will want to get to the 5, the 50 or the 417 and none of them are easy to get to. Lets put them on the LRT instead.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The city is interested because they don't want to have to upgrade all of the roads to LeBreton to handle the surge in event traffic. And why should I pay for an 8 lane highway to LeBreton with my taxes so that you can drive to and from events when we have a perfectly good LRT system?

You don't need an 8 lane highway. The road infrastructure in the area deals with tens of thousands of commuters every day. That infrastructure is mostly un-used in the evening.

[orleans_man]

I can't see the new Lebretron arena being a traffic nightmare for the area. I believe I heard that the new arena would only have 450 parking spots or so. Most people will probably park near a convenient LRT stop and take the train. Of course, some people will drive in and look for parking. But I don't see it being anywhere near 6000 or 7000 vehicles that we see today bombing towards within 500 feet the event centre from a single direction...

In terms of an event ticket, I think it's the best option if a fair arrangement can be made between the event organizer and the city. But, as it was pointed out, it may not be required for a space a Lebreton, where tranist is already a very attractive option

However, many of the people attending these events may not be regular transit users, so providing it as a free option to them (not necessarily free to the organizer) could create a higher likelihood of using transit...

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Parking and traffic problems will be worse at Lebreton than at Lansdowne. Lansdowne is surrounded with residential streets whereas at Lebreton not so much.

The issue is moving people. Yes, Lebreton will have trains versus Lansdowne's buses, but buses get people across the city whereas trains are much more limited as far as where they will take you. We need to encourage people to use transit otherwise congestion will become unmanageable especially on week nights when people will be still commuting when people are heading to the arena. The Lansdowne experience has proven that including transit fare in your ticket price is effective to encourage the use of transit. A big deterrent to using transit is more than the money (although paying extra is a deterrent for many people) but actually figuring out how to get a ticket if the person is not a transit rider. With so many non-transit riders going to the games, just getting a ticket or not having enough ticket machines will turn off too many people. In the long-run, it is a good strategy for city as it exposes people to transit who otherwise would never use the service. At least a small number will become more frequent transit riders as a result.

This doesn't make any sense. There's no way that Lebreton would be worse than Landsdowne if the arena gets built. You're comparing a location that has roads coming from all directions, roads that most are multi-lane, and with 2 different LRT lines to a location that is closed off on 2 sides by the Canal with no mass transit lines anywhere close.

Lebreton is an area that already has demonstrated it can handle crowds much larger than those at an NHL game with Bluesfest. And that's before the Confederation Line has come on line.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Can you name names? How many of those roads actually go where people want to go without dumping them onto smaller city streets? Those might be great for people in old Ottawa/Hull, but not much use for anyone else. Most will want to get to the 5, the 50 or the 417 and none of them are easy to get to. Lets put them on the LRT instead.

Geez, just look at Google Maps. It's not that hard to use.

[J.OT13]

I have no doubt that the transit ridership to and from LeBreton events will be high regardless of whether or not fares are included in the price however, in order to avoid long lines at the ticket machines, increased costs to the city that would have to print more tickets and load up the machines more often, and the possibility or running out of tickets, I think it would be better to have transit included as part of a surcharge.

Having everyone pay an extra 3-4 bucks on a hockey ticket worth $50+ isn't going to break anyone. Making people wait in line twice to buy a one way train ride to and from LeBreton might not be worth the frustration.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Geez, just look at Google Maps. It's not that hard to use.

I already did. I think I know what streets he is talking about, but it is hard to tell for sure. If they are the streets I am thinking of, there are many holes, but he has left it so vague that it is hard to counter.

For example, he talks about a "6 lane arterial road coming from Gatineau" which I assume is the Portage bridge, but it doesn't terminate in LeBreton. You have use the SJAM parkway, which I assume is his "6 lane arterial road leading from downtown." Which means he is counting it twice. That is just one example.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Having everyone pay an extra 3-4 bucks on a hockey ticket worth $50+ isn't going to break anyone. Making people wait in line twice to buy a one way train ride to and from LeBreton might not be worth the frustration.

I agree and I doubt if the surcharge would even be that high, since the service will be much cheaper to operate than the Lansdowne service. I would guess it would be more like 1-2 bucks.

Regardless, they should put long sidings (600 to 900 m) on either side of the track between Bayview and Pimisi, so that they can queue up a bunch of extra trains to quickly inject into service once the event ends and crowds start appearing on the platforms.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Lebreton is an area that already has demonstrated it can handle crowds much larger than those at an NHL game with Bluesfest. And that's before the Confederation Line has come on line.

But Bluesfest also includes "OC Transpo service to and from the festival, starting 3 hours before gates open until 2 hours after they close."

http://www.ottawabluesfest.ca/transportation/