LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by daud

When I go to sporting events at other cities, I have to pay for subway/transit. Why wouldn't OC Transpo just collect fares instead of doing free rides? With the paid fare zones, wouldn't this be easier?

I personally don't believe people will opt to drive if transit is paid. LRT is going to be the easy way to get there assuming they can manage the traffic loads

It depends how much parking costs. Transit cash fares are currently $3.40 per person each way (or $6.80 round trip), so for a family of 4, that is $27.20 in transit fare (unless it is on a weekend and they have young children (11 and under), so can buy a family day pass). If parking is $15, transit will be cheaper for 1 or 2 people, but as soon as you add a third, driving will at least seem cheaper (people tend to ignore the other costs of driving). Even for 2, it would be close enough to come down to what is the easiest. Without direct service to a park and ride in the west, driving might still be easier, even with the traffic issues.

How will fare paid zones make things easier if you are suggesting that people have to pay for transit? It might reduce boarding times slightly, which is nice, but really a minor factor in the scheme of things. With free transit for ticket holders, they could open the gates for those coming from the arena after the event, which would be a huge advantage.

As for ability to handle the loads, if they run a train every 3 minutes each way on the Confederation Line after the event, they can transport 6000 people in 15 minutes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That remediation was funded by the feds right?

If the feds funded that remediation they should pay for the rest. IMO they should be on the hook for the cost as they were the ones who expropriated it and left it sitting empty for decades.

Isn't part of the contamination from the city using it as a snow dump? If so, at least that portion should be the city's responsibility as they caused the problem.

[OTSkyline]

How does the current set up work with games and concerts at the CTC? Do the SENS or Melnyk group pay the City or OC Transpo to service the far-out location?

Because I'm pretty sure it will actually save OC Transpo money to service the new Lebreton arena vs the current Kaanta arena.

[lrt's friend]

The CTC transit arrangement is old. People are expected to pay fares both ways, which is a deterrent to using transit when most people will car pool to the arena.

The new arrangement to include transit in the event ticket became a new model with Lansdowne. Obviously, there is a negotiation to establish how much OSEG will pay the city for transit service. This makes for easier handling of passengers (nobody has to show anything to get on the special buses) especially during the rush following the games, when everybody is leaving at the same time. If nothing is being paid on game day, and passengers easily flow onto transit vehicles, we are going to be more successful to get people not to try to bring their car to the park or nearby. This is clearly much better than the old way years ago with the Renegades and Rough Riders when there were no special event buses fanning out across the city. Instead, you were limited to just Bank Street buses, although there were extras put on.

With the arena moving to Lebreton, expecting fans to buy individual transit tickets to gain entry to trains is going to quickly overwhelm ticket machines that are available. The Lansdowne model will facilitate the movement of passengers onto trains assuming the tickets are readable at the transit gates. The big thing is to gain a higher modal share and make it easy and cost transparent. This becomes critical at Lebreton where parking will be limited.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

With the arena moving to Lebreton, expecting fans to buy individual transit tickets to gain entry to trains is going to quickly overwhelm ticket machines that are available. The Lansdowne model will facilitate the movement of passengers onto trains assuming the tickets are readable at the transit gates. The big thing is to gain a higher modal share and make it easy and cost transparent. This becomes critical at Lebreton where parking will be limited.

Ideally they would just leave the gates open. Yes, some non-game goers would get on the trains too, but they'd be a minority. That said, the gates we're getting process fares very quickly, so it shouldn't too big of a problem if the city isn't willing to go that far.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

How does the current set up work with games and concerts at the CTC? Do the SENS or Melnyk group pay the City or OC Transpo to service the far-out location?

No. The service to the CTC is user pay. I don't know, but I suspect the city recoups their costs with the transit fares as they really pack the buses. The most expensive part of providing bus service is buying the buses and they already own them for other routes.

The city has tried to get a surcharge added (like done at TD Place) but the Senators refused as they make too much money on parking. Things will be a bit different that way at LeBreton as they won't have all that cheap land to sprawl parking lots on, so to some extent they will need OCTranspo to help provide service. They also want to cap the Confederation Line, and will need the city's permission to do that, so the city does have some bargaining power.

Because I'm pretty sure it will actually save OC Transpo money to service the new Lebreton arena vs the current Kaanta arena.

No doubt. It will probably be even cheaper than the service provided to TD Place, which is why I suspect the surcharge could be smaller.

As I said before, the cost of not providing free service will be increased congestion on the surrounding streets (especially Booth and Rochester) as the cost of transit would be the tipping point for many.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ideally they would just leave the gates open. Yes, some non-game goers would get on the trains too, but they'd be a minority. That said, the gates we're getting process fares very quickly, so it shouldn't too big of a problem if the city isn't willing to go that far.

To avoid that, they could have a special entrance that leads directly from the arena to the fare paid zone that they only open up during events.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

To avoid that, they could have a special entrance that leads directly from the arena to the fare paid zone that they only open up during events.

That won't be possible because we have decided that the arena will be placed mid way between two stations.

[J.OT13]

Would it be possible to add a QR Code on the Sens game tickets to access fare gates?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Would it be possible to add a QR Code on the Sens game tickets to access fair gates?

Yes. We're already doing that for Redblacks tickets; they can be scanned on the Trillium line gates as of now.

[J.OT13]

Ok, so my feedback on the two articles posted about the City refusing to pay the clean-up costs and "protecting" the taxpayers. When I read the titles over the week-end, I was livid. Not surprised, but livid.

After actually taking the time to read the articles today, I developed a more informed view of what the City is trying to achieve.

1. Cleanup of the property;
I was under the impression that the City was flat-out refusing to let RVL benefit from the brownfield remediation incentives, putting the onus solely on the Senators, but by suggesting that the NCC should take on the entire costs, the City is possibly opening the door to negotiate splitting the cost between the three entities (as mentioned, the City does hold some responsibility due to the snow dump).

2. No free transit service increase to the rink;
Again this is fair. Opening the door for an OSEG type deal where a ticket surcharge would be transferred to the City to offer "free" transit for patrons going to the game. As I mentioned before, this could be achieved with a QR code (just like a day pass) on the Sens ticket. With limited parking, I'm sure the Sens would be willing to play ball.

Even if they don't strike a deal and people end up paying full price for transit, I feel like it would not be a determent. I expect that parking at LeBreton Flats might be somewhere around $20+ (if it's already $18 at the CTC). And of course car traffic to and from the Flats will be ridiculously worse than Kanata (once you're off the highway and driving on city streets). In any case, I'm sure some people will be willing to find free on-street parking downtown and walk the kilometer+ to the arena.

3. City borrowing money on behalf of the Sens;
Didn't expect them to offer this. I was presently surprised. Wanting a guarantee that the tax-payers will be paid back is obviously reasonable.

4. City doesn't want the burden of new parks and plazas, or if so make it bland and cheap;
Little less impressed about this one. Whether or not RVL is funding the initial construction, the City should be willing to fund the ongoing maintenance for at least some of the public spaces. With the additional tax revenue (and transit revenue), they should't have a problem paying for it.

[1overcosc]

When developers build new parks in the suburbs the city takes responsibility for the future maintenance of the asset. New parks in Lebreton shouldn't be any different.

[waterloowarrior]

Based on the staff report, it doesn't sound like they are opposed to ownership necessarily but require more clarity. e.g. are some of the major plazas, canals, etc going to City parks, privately-owned public spaces, or should be part of the NCC lands

http://ottwatch.ca/meetings/file/484615

Principle 3: Role clarification must be provided for any public realm components
The public realms components that the NCC and its preferred proponent envision as
part of this phase of redevelopment may presume municipal involvement. It is in the
City’s interest to have those roles articulated and clarified. The City needs to
understand how the public realm improvements will be delivered, and by whom. The
City would also seek to clarify the future role of the federal government in the public
realm components, as further described below.

Given the proximity of this LeBreton Flats development to the parliamentary precinct,
the Canadian War Museum, the Canadian Firefighters Memorial, the National Holocaust
Monument north and Pindigen Park, it is reasonable to expect that the federal
government will retain an on-going interest and involvement in the redevelopment of this
site. The City will be seeking to have the nature of the federal government’s on-going
participation in the redevelopment as a whole articulated, in addition to their role in the
public realm uses

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Would it be possible to add a QR Code on the Sens game tickets to access fare gates?

Yes, but the city wouldn't want to give away transit for free, but instead want to collect a small fee on the sale of each ticket to go towards providing the transit, like they do for all major events at Landsdown.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

1. Cleanup of the property;
I was under the impression that the City was flat-out refusing to let RVL benefit from the brownfield remediation incentives, putting the onus solely on the Senators, but by suggesting that the NCC should take on the entire costs, the City is possibly opening the door to negotiate splitting the cost between the three entities (as mentioned, the City does hold some responsibility due to the snow dump).

Cost is also a factor. The LeBreton cleanup is almost two orders of magnitude greater than the projects the city normally sponsors for brownfield remediation.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yes, but the city wouldn't want to give away transit for free, but instead want to collect a small fee on the sale of each ticket to go towards providing the transit, like they do for all major events at Landsdown.

By the end of the game day OC Transpo would know how many people scanned the code and would then bill Senators accordingly at something like $2/ride. Senators would just factor it into their prices.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

When developers build new parks in the suburbs the city takes responsibility for the future maintenance of the asset. New parks in Lebreton shouldn't be any different.

I think the concern is that while most developers put up modest parks that are affordable to maintain (maintain the grass, replenish the sand and repair the play structures), the LeBreton group will have a much bigger budget and could put up some sort of grandiose Taj Mahal version of a park that could be very expensive to maintain. To me it is reasonable for the city to have a say in what is installed that they will have to support.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

By the end of the game day OC Transpo would know how many people scanned the code and would then bill Senators accordingly at something like $2/ride. Senators would just factor it into their prices.

They could use that approach, but normally they have a flat rate based on the number of tickets sold, regardless of how many use transit, since OC Transpo needs to know how many buses/trains to add ahead of time.

The debate is if there should be such a fee and have transit included in the ticket price, or if the ticket holder should also have to pay for transit to and from the event.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think the concern is that while most developers put up modest parks that are affordable to maintain (maintain the grass, replenish the sand and repair the play structures), the LeBreton group will have a much bigger budget and could put up some sort of grandiose Taj Mahal version of a park that could be very expensive to maintain. To me it is reasonable for the city to have a say in what is installed that they will have to support.

Yes, to a degree, but this should be a showcase development instead the usual weedy fields in the suburbs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, to a degree, but this should be a showcase development instead the usual weedy fields in the suburbs.

Agreed, but it also shouldn't be the most elaborate (and most expensive to maintain) park in the city.