The Ugly Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Really? Albertans voted very differently from Ontarians and British Columbians in the last federal election. As previously mentioned the Conservative and Liberal governments have different policies when it comes to this issue (the Conservatives proposed the "barbaric practices hotline" for example).

In the last federal election Quebec was no more of an outlier than, say, Alberta or Newfoundland.

(Not that any of this could predict very accurately what O-tacular believes. Actually if all you know is that he's from Calgary or Alberta there's a somewhat higher likelihood he'll be a more conservative voter and would accept a niqab ban.)

I get the gist of what you are saying but voter leanings aren't all inclusive buckets. On the niqab issue and the issue of the integration of immigrants in general, views in Calgary are more similar to those in Toronto than in Montréal. (And BTW I would not take Denis Coderre's view on this as being typical of most Montrealers.)

As for previous voting history I doubt this issue was really a ballot question for many Canadians. This goes for Quebec and anywhere else. So I would not read too much into the levels of support for (for lack of a better term) pro-niqab or anti-niqab parties.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by vid

The analogue to that, and my position, is to figure out why Muslim women are wearing the veils, and in cases where abuse is present, deal with the abuse, because it's the abuse that is the crime, not the wearing of a veil. Enforce the existing laws against the men who are oppressing them and make it clear that forcing someone to wear something against their will is contrary to our values as Canadians. But don't just come out and say "you can't wear this. Don't question our demands".

Yes, exactly. And great posts vid - getting close to giving up posting here but I agree with pretty much everything you say.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by vid

The analogue to that, and my position, is to figure out why Muslim women are wearing the veils, and in cases where abuse is present, deal with the abuse, because it's the abuse that is the crime, not the wearing of a veil. Enforce the existing laws against the men who are oppressing them and make it clear that forcing someone to wear something against their will is contrary to our values as Canadians. But don't just come out and say "you can't wear this. Don't question our demands".

It's quite obvious why they wear the veils. It's a physical manifestation of their religion. You don't see many Burqas being worn outside of places like Afghanistan. You can't address the abuse as long as women are being molded into a life of servitude. They are interconnected. Forcing them to remove the veils is just the start, the first step, to empowering them and strengthen their faith by questioning these arcane religious practices. It's not going to happen overnight. The initial response of being forced to drop the veils won't be received with open arms. Going "cold turkey" to stamp out an addiction is not fun either.

More laws are pointless as they are only enforceable with evidence. These women aren't going to speak out. They are fully shrouded in cloth. No signs of physical abuse will be noticed by others either. That's the whole point of a Burqa.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

It's quite obvious why they wear the veils. It's a physical manifestation of their religion. You can't address the abuse as long as women are being molded into a life of servitude. They are interconnected. Forcing them to remove the veils is just the start, the first step, to empowering them and strengthen their faith by questioning these arcane religious practices. It's not going to happen overnight. The initial response of being forced to drop the veils won't be received with open arms. Going "cold turkey" to stamp out an addiction is not fun either.

Although it may have come out during the "charter of values" discussions, I'm not aware of any policies of the Quebec or other governments to encourage women not to wear a veil (not sure what such policies might look like, if they exist/existed, I'm not aware of them).

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get the gist of what you are saying but voter leanings aren't all inclusive buckets. On the niqab issue and the issue of the integration of immigrants in general, views in Calgary are more similar to those in Toronto than in Montréal. (And BTW I would not take Denis Coderre's view on this as being typical of most Montrealers.)

As for previous voting history I doubt this issue was really a ballot question for many Canadians. This goes for Quebec and anywhere else. So I would not read too much into the levels of support for (for lack of a better term) pro-niqab or anti-niqab parties.

And you know this how?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get the gist of what you are saying but voter leanings aren't all inclusive buckets. On the niqab issue and the issue of the integration of immigrants in general, views in Calgary are more similar to those in Toronto than in Montréal. (And BTW I would not take Denis Coderre's view on this as being typical of most Montrealers.)

As for previous voting history I doubt this issue was really a ballot question for many Canadians. This goes for Quebec and anywhere else. So I would not read too much into the levels of support for (for lack of a better term) pro-niqab or anti-niqab parties.

Although one assumes that the issue will be front and centre in the next provincial election, no? Especially with the opposition promising to ratchet things up to "ban/notwithstanding" level.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Although it may have come out during the "charter of values" discussions, I'm not aware of any policies of the Quebec or other governments to encourage women not to wear a veil (not sure what such policies might look like, if they exist/existed, I'm not aware of them).

Are you purposely being obtuse?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Are you purposely being obtuse?

No, the comment was sincere. I guess I must be obtuse. Are/were there policies in place to discourage the wearing of veils?

[WhipperSnapper]

There's no need to ban all veils as the only veils I've ever seen worn on the streets are Niqabs and Burqas.

Anyways, yes, I said veils in place of Burqas and Niqabs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

And you know this how?

Is this a serious question? C'mon O...

Majority public opinion in Quebec and even across Canada is against opening up more room for the niqab in officialdom, and yet the parties who are on the other side of the issue won a majority federally, and 56 of 78 seats in Quebec.

It's not a top-of-mind issue for most people. Even if they have their views on it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Although one assumes that the issue will be front and centre in the next provincial election, no? Especially with the opposition promising to ratchet things up to "ban/notwithstanding" level.

Not necessarily. See my previous post. In order for it to be top-of-mind it probably needs to be wrapped up in some broader identity issue.

Not impossible but unlikely at this point.

Right now only Québec solidaire can be said to be pro-niqab. For lack of a better term.

Bill 62 probably puts the Libs in a decent spot politically. Even if the PQ and the CAQ would like a firmer stance, most people can probably live with the Liberal approach to this.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get the gist of what you are saying but voter leanings aren't all inclusive buckets. On the niqab issue and the issue of the integration of immigrants in general, views in Calgary are more similar to those in Toronto than in Montréal. (And BTW I would not take Denis Coderre's view on this as being typical of most Montrealers.)

There are different political "bubbles" and there's at least one in which multiculturalism and accommodation of foreign cultural practices has become axiomatic and beyond questioning. This is the bubble that includes the CBC, a lot of Liberal voters, even more NDP voters, etc. For example with the left-wing environmentalist and queer activist crowd the niqab bill seems to fall somewhere in the same ballpark as throwing babies out of windows or Donald Trump.

But then there are other bubbles that include people like that guy who comes on here to rant about Justin Trudeau. A large group of conservative voters don't care at all or would actively like to see the ban in place. In fact many of them are reflexively anti-political-correctness and against the first group I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

(I think both of these groups have lost their minds somewhat and are unknowingly caught up in tribalist in-group out-group thinking but they are part of the political reality of Canada. I should just be thankful this country isn't yet like the US I guess.)

This breakdown doesn't follow Anglophone vs. Francophone lines or Quebec vs. other provinces. I agree that the Quebec debates often have their own flavour but there is a lot of diversity of opinion in the rest of Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

For example with the left-wing environmentalist and queer activist crowd the niqab bill seems to fall somewhere in the same ballpark as throwing babies out of windows or Donald Trump.

.

(I am sure that the irony, especially in the case of the second group, is not lost on you.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(I am sure that the irony, especially in the case of the second group, is not lost on you.)

I know people who will share stories about gay or trans people being thrown off buildings in the Middle East, burned alive, etc. But they won't say anything bad about Islam, which definitely has nothing to do with any of that. Of course, these same people will rant about conservative Christians.

To put things in perspective, over 80% of Moroccans are against homosexuality, and it is still punishable by prison time there. That is a more lenient Arab country. Many others still have the death penalty (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.).

This doesn't mean that every Muslim thinks like this. Many don't, and of course there are gay or gay-friendly Muslims and gay-friendly mosques. All of them should be praised and deserve extra support. But on a demographic level it is highly improbable you could pick thousands of people from these countries and find that they have views similar to typical Canadians.

On a positive note though women in Saudi Arabia are allowed to drive now. In the niqabs they choose to wear as a form of empowerment (and so they don't get thrown in jail).

[MolsonExport]

Is it unreasonable to hold our so-called enlightened society to a higher moral standard than those in the Middle East? If the argument involves a comparison to a much lower standard, well I don't find that a very strong argument whatsoever (and is completely beside the real issue). Vid has done a very good job articulating the real issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I know people who will share stories about gay or trans people being thrown off buildings in the Middle East, burned alive, etc. But they won't say anything bad about Islam, which definitely has nothing to do with any of that. Of course, these same people will rant about conservative Christians.

To put things in perspective, over 80% of Moroccans are against homosexuality, and it is still punishable by prison time there. That is a more lenient Arab country. Many others still have the death penalty (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.).

This doesn't mean that every Muslim thinks like this. Many don't, and of course there are gay or gay-friendly Muslims and gay-friendly mosques. All of them should be praised and deserve extra support. But on a demographic level it is highly improbable you could pick thousands of people from these countries and find that they have views similar to typical Canadians.

On a positive note though women in Saudi Arabia are allowed to drive now. In the niqabs they choose to wear as a form of empowerment (and so they don't get thrown in jail).

I totally agree. We should not paint with too broad a brush.

Still most of the gay community has for some reason chosen to support the more extreme form of Islam on this issue. It would be interesting to know if veiled women and their husbands (who often compel them to cover up) tend to have charitable views of homosexuals.

Anyone wanna take a wild guess?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I totally agree. We should not paint with too broad a brush.

Still most of the gay community has for some reason chosen to support the more extreme form of Islam on this issue. It would be interesting to know if veiled women and their husbands (who often compel them to cover up) tend to have charitable views of homosexuals.

Anyone wanna take a wild guess?

The support is in favour of liberty and against State repression. Not surprising positions for many gays to take.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still most of the gay community has for some reason chosen to support the more extreme form of Islam on this issue.

There isn't a single gay community or gay activist community like there used to be in Canada in the 90's and earlier. Back in those days if you were openly gay your principal or only allies were on the left and to be accepted by them you had to adopt their basket of ideas. These days a lot of gay people don't need to be politically active or are more conservative. Basically they are becoming more like the rest of the population.

The queer activist stuff I mentioned is the left wing remainder of the older group. A lot of gay males don't get along well with this group. Actually sometimes you see GLBTQ groups that have zero cisgender males (I think Signal said this happened to St. John's Pride). That shows you how these groups can turn into echo chambers. Once that happens it is easy for them to develop strange beliefs and demand rigid orthodoxy.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Is it unreasonable to hold our so-called enlightened society to a higher moral standard than those in the Middle East? If the argument involves a comparison to a much lower standard, well I don't find that a very strong argument whatsoever (and is completely beside the real issue). Vid has done a very good job articulating the real issue.

Though I would ask, in turn: is it unreasonable to see the face-covering of women as an undesirable import from a comparatively repressive culture?

I think things have gotten a little topsy-turvy in what is turning into an ad hoc referendum on the issue of “Canadian values, whatever those might be." It looks like we've found ourselves a litmus test here: one Canadian value, probably a universal Western value, is that we don't hide our faces from each other, and that this one Islamic/Middle Eastern import, the niqab/burqa, the covering of women's faces when in public because women are the property of their husbands, is objectionable and intolerable.

[MolsonExport]

Though I would ask, in turn: is it unreasonable to see the face-covering of women as an undesirable import from a comparatively repressive culture?

Well, I don't know. I personally am not comfortable with this being the reason why we should arbitrarily ban the practice, which I do not equate with other practices that I see as clearly meriting strong objections; for example, female genital mutilation.

What I suspect, and what some are confirming, is that the ban is motivated largely by a deep-seated objection to a cultural practice that may be offensive to some people (much like the whole Sikh kippa debate of a couple of decades ago, or the issue of [once again] Sikh soldiers not removing their turban when entering the local Legion) only because it represents a departure from the Canadian norm, even though it does not really harm anyone under almost every single circumstance.