Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And on your return home, when your local bus in Orleans has a 15 or 20 or 30 minute frequency?

What does that have anything to do with transfers? A direct route to Orleans would still only come every 15 or 20 or 30 minutes. Instead of waiting at the transfer point you'd be waiting at the point of origin. No difference.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And on your return home, when your local bus in Orleans has a 15 or 20 or 30 minute frequency?

Most Connexion routes have better frequency than that, but if is that infrequent, then that would be a problem even if you didn't have a second transfer. One of the nice things about LRT is it will be reliable enough that once you find a train that connects well to your bus, you can count on it almost every day regardless of weather or traffic. With the suburban buses not having to deal with traffic downtown, they should be more reliable as well.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

It's just the ballast. They'll come by with a machine that will settle all the gravel. They did the same ages ago on the eastern tracks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaFJvqD3DI8

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by harls

Ok, so why did they stop at the slope, are they going to continue adding the rocks all the way to Parkdale? Or is it just for the slope?

Not being an asshole, I have no idea how this works.. just curious.

That is called ballastless track. As OCCheetos said, the track is bolted directly to a solid concrete base rather then separate ties (that need to be held in place with ballast). Ballastless track is best when you have a solid rock surface to attach the base to (though it can be used elsewhere by pouring a thicker slab of concrete). As OCCheetos suggested, ballastless track causes more vibrations and noise, though measures can be taken to mitigate that. Drainage is another factor. On a solid rock surface, there is no natural drainage anyway, so having a solid concrete base doesn't change anything, but on a porous surface, ballast will take advantage of its natural drainage properties.

Wikipedia has an interesting article on Ballastless Track.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What does that have anything to do with transfers? A direct route to Orleans would still only come every 15 or 20 or 30 minutes. Instead of waiting at the transfer point you'd be waiting at the point of origin. No difference.

It has everything to do with it if you expect people to transfer twice. Few people will accept two transfers. We try to indicate that there will be short waits but that only applies if service is frequent. So if people are living in Orleans as many DND workers do and they are now going to have to travel to Carling and Moodie, their last leg home may involve a significant wait. It does not matter if service is predictable, The rider still has to cross the whole city in order to make that final transfer. Which train makes the transfer and which one does not? That is a big expectation for riders to figure that out. I also question how predictable the trains will be. Yes, more predictable than buses and much less bunching because of signalling, but will the trains precisely maintain their schedules. If not, people will miss transfers. The Trillium Line falls off schedule quite often.

There is not much we can do about this but don't be surprised if ridership to suburban employment locations continues to be very low. LRT is not going to resolve this if there is a bus trip at both ends. I think our expectations are too high. LRT will be great on the LRT corridor, but its value declines rapidly as we move away from it. This is the experience in Calgary and no doubt in countless cities.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It has everything to do with it if you expect people to transfer twice. Few people will accept two transfers. We try to indicate that there will be short waits but that only applies if service is frequent. So if people are living in Orleans as many DND workers do and they are now going to have to travel to Carling and Moodie, their last leg home may involve a significant wait. It does not matter if service is predictable, The rider still has to cross the whole city in order to make that final transfer. Which train makes the transfer and which one does not? That is a big expectation for riders to figure that out. I also question how predictable the trains will be. Yes, more predictable than buses and much less bunching because of signalling, but will the trains precisely maintain their schedules. If not, people will miss transfers. The Trillium Line falls off schedule quite often.

There is not much we can do about this but don't be surprised if ridership to suburban employment locations continues to be very low. LRT is not going to resolve this if there is a bus trip at both ends. I think our expectations are too high. LRT will be great on the LRT corridor, but its value declines rapidly as we move away from it. This is the experience in Calgary and no doubt in countless cities.

Is the LRT going to "try" and operate on a fixed schedule ? i.e. 12:05, 12:10, 12:15, 12:20, etc ??

or will it operate like the vast majority of Metros where one just shows up and knows one will be along "soon" ??

Point being, will people have to line up their bus schedule with LRT departures? or just take the bus and know a train will come by..

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Is the LRT going to "try" and operate on a fixed schedule ? i.e. 12:05, 12:10, 12:15, 12:20, etc ??

or will it operate like the vast majority of Metros where one just shows up and knows one will be along "soon" ??

Point being, will people have to line up their bus schedule with LRT departures? or just take the bus and know a train will come by..

This is my impression of how this kind of rail service operates. There is a myriad of reasons why trains might get delayed, and in may cases, it may simply be a minute or two. That kind of delay, does not affect the overall service other than it is not quite as predictable for bus transfers as we assume.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Trillium Line falls off schedule quite often.

The two big issues with the Trillium line are:

1. The Ellwood Diamond requires the O-train to wait for VIA Rail trains to cross, putting trains behind schedule.
2. Single track requires trains to wait for the oncoming train to clear the block, causing delays to propagate to all trains with no hope of catching up.

The Confederation line won't have either of these issues.

The reality is the wait for that transfer will be the same for those commuting from downtown as it would be for those commuting from DND.

Having said that, I agree that not many living in Orleans will use LRT to commute to DND, not because of the two transfers, but because the end to end travel time on the LRT will be too long compared to driving on the Queensway (the LRT takes a longer route and has multiple stops along the way).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Having said that, I agree that not many living in Orleans will use LRT to commute to DND, not because of the two transfers, but because the end to end travel time on the LRT will be too long compared to driving on the Queensway (the LRT takes a longer route and has multiple stops along the way).

This is why trying to use the LRT as long-distance transportation makes little sense. Political expediency took precedence over any practical considerations.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Having said that, I agree that not many living in Orleans will use LRT to commute to DND, not because of the two transfers, but because the end to end travel time on the LRT will be too long compared to driving on the Queensway (the LRT takes a longer route and has multiple stops along the way).

Also there are those massive parking lots that employees would have access to now. So unless DND decides to rip those up, driving likely will appeal to all workers as parking will be plentiful and likely free.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Also there are those massive parking lots that employees would have access to now. So unless DND decides to rip those up, driving likely will appeal to all workers as parking will be plentiful and likely free.

Probably not free as I think the feds charge for parking even in the burbs now. I believe they've farmed out the management of parking to the private sector.

But certainly the parking fee and other driving costs to DND at Nortel will be competitive with taking transit. Even if it's a bit more expensive, there are other advantages to driving and having your car handy that factor into it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably not free as I think the feds charge for parking even in the burbs now.

I believe you are correct. My neighbour is now working out of the new facility and indicated that the parking was inexpensive but not free.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably not free as I think the feds charge for parking even in the burbs now. I believe they've farmed out the management of parking to the private sector.

That would make it the only Forces installation with pay parking now. Leitrim doesnt even charge money.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

That would make it the only Forces installation with pay parking now. Leitrim doesnt even charge money.

There is no bus service there unless you expect people to walk 1 km to the closest bus route. Not reasonable.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

That would make it the only Forces installation with pay parking now. Leitrim doesnt even charge money.

NDHQ doesn't charge for parking?

I think the policy is market rates so suburban rates are free or nearly free.

[lrt's friend]

The Confederation Line will not have quite the issues as the Trillium Line but as with the Trillium Line, expect the schedule to be just a suggestion. Schedule boards at stations will be real time.

I am going to say that the single tracking with the Trillium Line is not a big issue as far as adherence to a schedule. The timing for train passing is down pat so the only big difference is the Ellwood Diamond.

The question of ridership to suburban employment will indeed be based on time competitiveness. Frequent stopping will be one issue but transfers is the deal breaker for most people. If you have to even occasionally wait for a transfer for 15 or more minutes, most people will look for alternatives if they can afford it and if parking is available and not too expensive. Furthermore, with the opening of Phase 2, LRT will not be any faster than the buses that they replaced.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is my impression of how this kind of rail service operates. There is a myriad of reasons why trains might get delayed, and in may cases, it may simply be a minute or two. That kind of delay, does not affect the overall service other than it is not quite as predictable for bus transfers as we assume.

If you are timing your transfers so finely that you have less than 2 minutes to spare, you are asking for troubles. Waiting 3 or 4 minutes for a transfer isn't a big deal and is much better than just missing a transfer and having to wait for a bus that is even only 15 minutes later.

Originally Posted by acottawa

This is why trying to use the LRT as long-distance transportation makes little sense. Political expediency took precedence over any practical considerations.

I counted 23 stops between Place d'Orleans and Moodie. If you assume a 1 minute delay for each stop (30 second delay to slow down and speed up and 30 second dwell time) that is an extra 23 minutes in travel time for the stops alone.

If they really wanted to serve crosstown commuters, they would put in a crosstown express bus (say Orleans to Hurdman to Bayshore to Kanata with no stops in between). Part of the problem doing that though is the bus would get stuck in the same traffic as everyone else. Now if they could extend even the carpool lanes across town, that would change everything and make such a route much more attractive.

[lrt's friend]

If you are timing your transfers so finely that you have less than 2 minutes to spare, you are asking for troubles. Waiting 3 or 4 minutes for a transfer isn't a big deal and is much better than just missing a transfer and having to wait for a bus that is even only 15 minutes later.

I am not sure how the rider is going to know how to do what you suggest when they are travelling from the opposite end of the city or even half way across the city. Yeah, it is reasonable if you are taking the train a couple of stops and then transferring, but if you are travelling 10 or 20 stations, it gets less easy to plan your trip. Just remember that buses don't give you as many choices as far as departure times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

NDHQ doesn't charge for parking?

I think the policy is market rates so suburban rates are free or nearly free.

I'd be surprised if it's less than 50 bucks a month in any of the developed suburban areas where there are other private sector offices nearby, or hospitals, etc.

If that counts as "nearly free".

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Confederation Line will not have quite the issues as the Trillium Line but as with the Trillium Line, expect the schedule to be just a suggestion. Schedule boards at stations will be real time.

I suspect initially the time points will be departure from Blair and Tunnies Pasture. As you say, everything else will be a suggestion but it will be very reliable and delays from one trip won't propagate to the next one.

I am going to say that the single tracking with the Trillium Line is not a big issue as far as adherence to a schedule. The timing for train passing is down pat so the only big difference is the Ellwood Diamond.

Single tracking isn't what causes delays, but delays that do occur (mostly due to Ellwood Diamond) to get propagated to other trains because of it. Once delayed, the timing doesn't allow the system to ever catch up.

Furthermore, with the opening of Phase 2, LRT will not be any faster than the buses that they replaced.

I agree that on a typical day it will not be any faster, but it will be more reliable so on a bad day it will be much faster. People don't remember the good days, they remember the bad ones.

It will also allow for additional capacity.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This will depend on local bus schedules. There will not be that much choice, Some days the rider will make a good connection, other days not. No bus route will run on a 2 minute schedule, just as LRT won't either.

Who ever said there would be a 2 minute schedule? The choice is when you leave your desk at work. For example, if you know the bus leaves, and its a 3 minute walk to the LRT station, a maximum 4 minute wait for a train, a 20 minute train ride and a 1 minute walk to the bus stop, if you leave 30 minutes before the bus departs, your wait for the bus will be about 2-6 minutes. Cut it much closer than that and it could be a long wait.