The Ugly Canada Thread

[vid]

Originally Posted by lio45

Transferable bus passes, I would assume. Or else women have to stay home, locked up like property or furniture, so they don't take the bus (or they have to be chaperoned by someone who'll vouch for them).

Iranian women actually have mobility rights. Moreso than Quebec women, these days, since they can take the bus with clothes on.

I suppose the next law to deal with our similar-looking-people-sharing-bus-passes crisis is going to be to make identical twins get different face tattoos to tell themselves apart. It's not discriminatory; we just want to operate the transit system efficiently.

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Just trying to understand what it is about the niqab that makes life for Quebecois so unbearable?

They're sharing bus passes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Just trying to understand what it is about the niqab that makes life for Quebecois so unbearable?

Is this even a serious question? It's a blatant symbol of oppression and mysogyny. Seems perfectly normal to point out it's not something we're going to welcome with open arms here.

If you're genuinely trying to understand (I doubt it but let's give you the benefit of doubt) then I would say this part (from link above) sums up decently well the popular sentiment regarding the full veil:

Primo, l’islam est une religion, pas une race.

Deuxio, des pays européens parfaitement démocratiques ont interdit le voile intégral au nom de la sécurité ou du vivre-ensemble. En juillet dernier, la Cour européenne des droits de l’homme a validé la loi belge, l’estimant « nécessaire » dans une « société démocratique ».

Tertio, puis-je vous rappeler que les femmes qui portent le niqab appartiennent aux franges plus extrêmes de l’islam : le salafisme ou le wahhabisme. Ce ne sont pas nos amies. Leur voile est une insulte au visage des Canadiennes et Canadiens, une manière de dire « nous ne nous intégrerons jamais ».

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Just trying to understand what it is about the niqab that makes life for Quebecois so unbearable?

Oooh - don't go there! An effort in SPP to explain the collective psychological traumas of the Quebecois cannot possibly end well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

Iranian women actually have mobility rights. Moreso than Quebec women, these days...

Riiiiight. Hey, do you think you can lend a hand passing information to ~4 million Quebec women on how to immigrate to Iran? I suppose most of them will be interested - who wouldn't be for improved mobility rights?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Oooh - don't go there! An effort in SPP to explain the collective psychological traumas of the Quebecois cannot possibly end well.

I don't think someone born and bred in a culture-free world could ever understand this, so, I'm not even sure a serious effort to explain can work. Likely not worth it, for sure.

[vid]

Originally Posted by lio45

Is this even a serious question? It's a blatant symbol of oppression and mysogyny.

So are high heels. Literally. Ban those next!

Originally Posted by lio45

Primo, l’islam est une religion, pas une race.

We have freedom of religion, and freedom of expression, in Canada. This both gives women the right to wear head scarves and the right to say no to a man forcing them to wear or not wear head scarves.

Originally Posted by lio45

Deuxio, des pays européens parfaitement démocratiques ont interdit le voile intégral au nom de la sécurité ou du vivre-ensemble. En juillet dernier, la Cour européenne des droits de l’homme a validé la loi belge, l’estimant « nécessaire » dans une « société démocratique ».

Banning guns is also necessary to ensure security in a democratic society. And at least in this area, much of Europe is fairly consistent.

Originally Posted by lio45

Tertio, puis-je vous rappeler que les femmes qui portent le niqab appartiennent aux franges plus extrêmes de l’islam : le salafisme ou le wahhabisme. Ce ne sont pas nos amies. Leur voile est une insulte au visage des Canadiennes et Canadiens, une manière de dire « nous ne nous intégrerons jamais ».[/i]

Then make it illegal for the men to force them to wear things against their will.

This is like—hahaha—banning guns because one guy shot up a group of people.

Originally Posted by lio45

I don't think someone born and bred in a culture-free world could ever understand this, so, I'm not even sure a serious effort to explain can work. Likely not worth it, for sure.

But three hours in you're still replying. Your non-answers fit nicely in our non-culture. Non-thank you.

[Acajack]

The idea that this law "targets" (radical) Islam is one that IMO can be debated. As can the question of whether, in the affirmative, it is legitimate or not to try and put some firewalls against radical Islam.

But this new front that has opened up that this is a misogynist sexist measure just... boggles my mind. I really don't know what to say.

What's next? That this is somehow a conspiracy against workers in the textile industry?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Speaking of the Quebec legislature, there now seems to be an opposition motion in the works to finally remove the Duplessis' crucifix from the wall behind the Speaker's chair. Some good may yet come of all this ...

I don't really care if they remove the crucifix in the National Assembly but... bringing it up as if it's somehow an equivalent symbol of contemporary oppression to the niqab and burqa?????

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But this new front that has opened up that this is a misogynist sexist measure just... boggles my mind. I really don't know what to say.

New front? This has been framed through a lens of misogyny from day one.

There are agencies that use photos on bus passes in other cities in Canada and none of them are freaking out about this. Are photo bus passes so ubiquitous in Quebec that this is a genuine, gender-non-specific problem in that province alone? If this isn't rooted in Islamophobia or misogyny; if this is an issue of verification of people's physical identity, then why isn't it happening evenly across Canada?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

New front? This has been framed through a lens of misogyny from day one.

There are agencies that use photos on bus passes in other cities in Canada and none of them are freaking out about this. Are photo bus passes so ubiquitous in Quebec that this is a genuine, gender-non-specific problem in that province alone? If this isn't rooted in Islamophobia or misogyny; if this is an issue of verification of people's physical identity, then why isn't it happening evenly across Canada?

OK so you guys have latched on to the bus pass argument because you think it's the silver bullet that will make you win this fight. Bravo. It's like being in high school all over again.

[vid]

That invalidates my question asking why the other provinces aren't experiencing a similar crisis and passing similar laws?

Neat~!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

New front? This has been framed through a lens of misogyny from day one.

There are agencies that use photos on bus passes in other cities in Canada and none of them are freaking out about this. Are photo bus passes so ubiquitous in Quebec that this is a genuine, gender-non-specific problem in that province alone? If this isn't rooted in Islamophobia or misogyny; if this is an issue of verification of people's physical identity, then why isn't it happening evenly across Canada?

This issue isn't about bus passes or misogyny. It's about establishing a distinction between what is reasonable accommodation and what is unreasonable accommodation.

The reason that it is not happening across Canada is because in Anglo-Canada the starting point at the present time is that any request for cultural or religious accommodation is a priori reasonable and acceptable. Unless it goes against the more serious infractions in the Criminal Code.

This is in my view a legitimate way to handle things, but it's certainly not the only way. And I suspect (even though it seems hard to believe in Oct. 2017) that it may not be the way Anglo-Canada will handle things at some point in the future.

But hey, only time will tell.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

That invalidates my question asking why the other provinces aren't experiencing a similar crisis and passing similar laws?

Neat~!

You just had to wait 20 seconds.

[vid]

If millennials and post-millennials keep leaning toward fascism we very well could be heading that way. Who knows? By 2080, our national flower might be the tiki torch. The kids love irony!

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You just had to wait 20 seconds.

It actually took you six minutes to post your follow up but I understand.

[Acajack]

You guys weren't interested in Lise Ravary, so here is another one. She's from Toronto, so she can't be completely off-base. Right?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/08...n-knots-to-defend-the-niqab-dimanno.html

[vid]

"She speaks English so you must agree with her!"

Haha, sure, if only because I have to go to bed now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

"She speaks English so you must agree with her!"

Haha, sure, if only because I have to go to bed now.

Oh, I know you guys won't agree with her. But you might take her more seriously - not because she speaks English (Lise Ravary does too, BTW) but because she's from Toronto.

[kwoldtimer]

Everybody needs to take a break.

Maybe tomorrow there will be a separate thread for all this junk.

[Acajack]

Another example of where giving a free pass for cultural or religious reasons can lead to Canada being, um, "ugly".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5001452/Man-NOT-guilty-rape-did-not-know-illegal.html

And Rosie Di Manno's take on it:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/10...cial-latitude-for-ignorance-dimanno.html