[Dartmouth] King's Wharf (16 Kings Wharf Place) | 85 & 49 m | 27 & 15 fl | U/C

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by lawsond

Was down there this week and thought the same thing. It is a waste of dense urban space. Fairview Cove makes somewhat more sense but Halterm could be its own Kings Wharf and right by the park. It would also make PPPark a much more inviting place.

I have posted this before but in the late 1990s I saw a set of plans at a local engineer's office for redevelopment of Halterm into a local Marina del Rey type of community (aside from the palm trees). It was fairly spectacular.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I have posted this before but in the late 1990s I saw a set of plans at a local engineer's office for redevelopment of Halterm into a local Marina del Rey type of community (aside from the palm trees). It was fairly spectacular.

How about a few palm trees in heated glass domes?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

How about a few palm trees in heated glass domes?

This is a tangent but the climate there is close to being able to support some palm trees outside year-round. There's a huge variety of palm trees. Some cannot get anywhere near freezing and others are hardy to -15 or -20, which is around the coldest it gets in the milder parts of Nova Scotia (some weather stations in NS have never had a night that got down to -20). People grow palms in areas like Rhode Island which are only marginally warmer in winter. Factor in climate change and I won't be surprised if palms become somewhat common in front yards in Halifax in 2050.

Vancouver can get down to -10 in the winter and many plants that Canadians would think of as exotic survive this without protection. One problem in is that you can plant things that will survive 90% of the winters but then they will die off once a decade on average.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is a tangent but the climate there is close to being able to support some palm trees outside year-round. There's a huge variety of palm trees. Some cannot get anywhere near freezing and others are hardy to -15 or -20, which is around the coldest it gets in the milder parts of Nova Scotia (some weather stations in NS have never had a night that got down to -20). People grow palms in areas like Rhode Island which are only marginally warmer in winter. Factor in climate change and I won't be surprised if palms become somewhat common in front yards in Halifax in 2050.

Vancouver can get down to -10 in the winter and many plants that Canadians would think of as exotic survive this without protection. One problem in is that you can plant things that will survive 90% of the winters but then they will die off once a decade on average.

Funny enough I was just wondering the same thing yesterday. I’m in Dublin this week and was surprised at how many homes have tropical plants in their yards!

[terrynorthend]

Any news regarding the Maristella ground breaking? Plans were for a Fall 2017 start.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Any news regarding the Maristella ground breaking? Plans were for a Fall 2017 start.

Fares changes his story on a regular basis. Don't believe anything until you see the equipment on the site.
We went to The Roy showroom to see what the QE2 lottery condo prize looks like. Saleman wanted to know if we were buying to live or buying to rent. Apparently more people are 'investing' in the condos with the idea that they'll rent out for short term visitors.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Fares changes his story on a regular basis. Don't believe anything until you see the equipment on the site.
We went to The Roy showroom to see what the QE2 lottery condo prize looks like. Saleman wanted to know if we were buying to live or buying to rent. Apparently more people are 'investing' in the condos with the idea that they'll rent out for short term visitors.

As in, AirBNB?

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

As in, AirBNB?

Most condos have contracts against renting out for AirBNB, but allow longer lease rentals, at least it was like that in Vancouver

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

As in, AirBNB?

No.
As in 'Executive suites' - business people in town for a few weeks/months.
And the building may become part 'owner occupiers' and part 'owner renters'.
Looks like the condo market has almost run its course and some buildings end up with some units owned and other units rented by the developer.
The Lofts was proposed as a condo and is now advertised as apartments.

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Colin May

No.
As in 'Executive suites' - business people in town for a few weeks/months.
And the building may become part 'owner occupiers' and part 'owner renters'.
Looks like the condo market has almost run its course and some buildings end up with some units owned and other units rented by the developer.
The Lofts was proposed as a condo and is now advertised as apartments.

I think part of it is how ridiculous the condo fees have been getting. Yes sure it may be nice to have certain things but paying an extra $400+ a month on-top of a mortgage will turn off a lot of buyers. I know that when I return to Halifax we will be looking at a house instead of a condo due to being able to get a lot more for our money.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I think part of it is how ridiculous the condo fees have been getting. Yes sure it may be nice to have certain things but paying an extra $400+ a month on-top of a mortgage will turn off a lot of buyers. I know that when I return to Halifax we will be looking at a house instead of a condo due to being able to get a lot more for our money.

To be honest, I don't know why people buy condos these days, with condo fees and the potential for unexpected repair bills as outlined in this article from a couple of years ago:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/condo-workmanship-problems-1.3302025

That, combined with the potential for not being able to sell it later would be enough to deter me, anyhow...

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I think part of it is how ridiculous the condo fees have been getting. Yes sure it may be nice to have certain things but paying an extra $400+ a month on-top of a mortgage will turn off a lot of buyers. I know that when I return to Halifax we will be looking at a house instead of a condo due to being able to get a lot more for our money.

I don't really understand new-build condo prices in Halifax. They're a bargain compared to prices in many other cities, but, compared to the price of houses in the city, they don't offer much, if any, price advantage. Yeah, you'll get brand-new appliances and fixtures, etc., whereas most houses don't come with those perks, and may involved pricey renovations. But besides a relatively small niche, the consumer preference for houses over apartments is still strong and those are pretty minor deterrents for most people. This is noticeable even in cities with strong price advantages for the latter.

Yes, some people prefer apartment living. But I'd say that most people, faced with the choice between a condo for 300-400k or a fixer upper on the peninsula in the same range, would go for the latter. If you can get a small house in a desirable neighbourhood for not much more than a two-bedroom condo, the house will usually win out, even among younger buyers.

Maybe things are rebalancing, though: according to Royal LePage, prices increased substantially for all housing types last year, except condos, which dropped substantially.

[DT Hfx]

I agree. I would never consider buying a condo that was not centered in the downtown. However, I would much rather live in a condo in the center of the downtown than live in a house on the outskirts of downtown. I imagine a lot of people like the idea of living several floors up surrounding by urbanity....and the only way to do that is by buying a condo if you don't want to rent. It is worth paying double or triple per square foot for the right location.

[someone123]

Yeah, when it comes to a building like the Roy it's hard to come up with an apples-to-apples house comparison. There aren't any detached houses in that area. Similarly for King's Wharf there isn't much in a prime location like that, although they might build townhouses there in the future. I doubt those townhouses will be affordable.

It's the condos in areas like Young Street that are more comparable to houses around the peninsula. Generally speaking there's a trade-off around whether or not you want to do maintenance work on your own property. A condo is a lot less work. Seniors in particular tend to prefer them.

It is pretty common for me to hear or read that the condo market will be "saturated". In fact I've heard that for as long as I've paid any attention. Probably 15 years or more. Without talking about specific levels of construction and time frames this type of conversation is meaningless. Condo construction is cyclical and waxes and wanes but there is steady demand for new building stock due to population growth, economic growth (i.e. people can afford larger and nicer places so they want new builds or renos), and the general decline of older housing stock. Talking about housing demand being permanently statisfied is kind of like suggesting we don't need food anymore because people already eat too many cheeseburgers. The time scale is just different.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, when it comes to a building like the Roy it's hard to come up with an apples-to-apples house comparison. There aren't any detached houses in that area. Similarly for King's Wharf there isn't much in a prime location like that, although they might build townhouses there in the future. I doubt those townhouses will be affordable.

It's the condos in areas like Young Street that are more comparable to houses around the peninsula. Generally speaking there's a trade-off around whether or not you want to do maintenance work on your own property. A condo is a lot less work. Seniors in particular tend to prefer them.

It is pretty common for me to hear or read that the condo market will be "saturated". In fact I've heard that for as long as I've paid any attention. Probably 15 years or more. Without talking about specific levels of construction and time frames this type of conversation is meaningless. Condo construction is cyclical and waxes and wanes but there is steady demand for new building stock due to population growth, economic growth (i.e. people can afford larger and nicer places so they want new builds or renos), and the general decline of older housing stock. Talking about housing demand being permanently statisfied is kind of like suggesting we don't need food anymore because people already eat too many cheeseburgers. The time scale is just different.

Every month I download sales/transfer information for Halifax, Dartmouth and Bedford. About 25-30% of all transactions are between related persons where no Deed Transfer Tax is payable.
Three years after completion half the units of the 82 unit condo St Lawrence on Dutch Village Road remain unsold,41 of the 82 condos. In the last 12 months only 3 condos have been sold. Will the Young Street condo do any better - I doubt it.
High end condos with an unrestricted view of green space or the harbour and in a central location cater appear to sell quite well. Younger couples in metro can afford single family homes on the peninsula and central Dartmouth and a couple such as a police officer($100K) and a teacher ($70K) can easily afford a detached home - you cannot say that about markets in Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary.

[Keith P.]

I can see the appeal of condos for some but it is hardly a slam-dunk. You are getting things like amenities, maintenance and possibly location but trading for that in return for having to put up with elevators, noise, scents, lack of outdoor space, and having other people in your living environment. At one point those things would not have bothered me and as I get older they may become more acceptable again in return for not having the responsibilities of a house but for a lot of people having their own property is everything.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is pretty common for me to hear or read that the condo market will be "saturated". In fact I've heard that for as long as I've paid any attention. Probably 15 years or more. Without talking about specific levels of construction and time frames this type of conversation is meaningless. Condo construction is cyclical and waxes and wanes but there is steady demand for new building stock due to population growth, economic growth (i.e. people can afford larger and nicer places so they want new builds or renos), and the general decline of older housing stock. Talking about housing demand being permanently statisfied is kind of like suggesting we don't need food anymore because people already eat too many cheeseburgers. The time scale is just different.

I don't think the housing market is saturated; not by a longshot. I just think condos in Halifax have in recent years been overpriced (which the frequent reversion to rentals seems to bear out).

Something like The Roy or King's Wharf is indeed different, and is aiming at a wholly different market. But the six-eight storey infill buildings in the North End are aiming at the same demographic that would be looking at a saltbox or rowhouse in the same area for a not especially greater price.

The future for the city is still going to be one of more and taller buildings throughout the centre of the city, and a growing proportion of the population living in condos/apartments. The relative prices of housing types have been a bit out of whack in recent years, is all.

DT Hfx says that he'd rather be in a condo in the centre of the city rather than a house on the outskirts of downtown, and there are surely others who feel that way, but just objectively speaking, that's definitely a minority of buyers in this market (or probably any Canadian market). Personally, I could be pretty happy in an ultra-downtown condo, but my partner prefers to live in a house a bit further out on the peninsula. I have to admit, she's the one with the more common preference.

[DT Hfx]

Condos can offer an ultra urban lifestyle; that is their sole advantage. Without that advantage they won't sell at bungalow prices. Even though it offered nice floor plans at decent prices, the Monaghan condo project failed because of it's location on Young St. On the other hand if the Pearl (beside Citadel Hill) had been condos it would have sold out.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by DT Hfx

Condos can offer an ultra urban lifestyle; that is their sole advantage.

Not entirely true. If that was the case you wouldn't see people buying condos in Spryfield (if I'm not mistaken, Halifax Condo Corp #1 is actually the Cowie Hill townhouses). Condos also offer fewer worries about maintenance, plus the possibility of shared amenities (pools, guest suites, etc.).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Not entirely true. If that was the case you wouldn't see people buying condos in Spryfield (if I'm not mistaken, Halifax Condo Corp #1 is actually the Cowie Hill townhouses). Condos also offer fewer worries about maintenance, plus the possibility of shared amenities (pools, guest suites, etc.).

Agreed. I think with the demographics of an aging population ensures there will be a good market for condos in the foreseeable future. Removing the hassles of home ownership will certainly be attractive to older residents with declining physical abilities or for those just wanting to spend their time doing other things. Not to mention the lack of worries in vacating it for several months, such as in the case of snowbirds.

I should also clarify in my post above that I meant the difference in buying vs renting a condo, and not the difference between buying a condo and buying a house - they are apples and oranges in my opinion. There are certainly different and viable reasons for preferring one over the other. I wasn't very clear about that point in my post above.

An other very important point of buying vs renting for older residents is the ability to sell one's house and use the principal to live their retirement years the way they want to, rather than have all their money tied up in an expensive purchase.