Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Pinion]

Not a shock but the Translink CEO said "lol — off" to any idea of a north shore skytrain:

North Vancouver MLA calls for North Shore SkyTrain

If you’re patiently waiting for the SkyTrain to arrive on the North Shore, you could be in for a long wait.

Mayor Darrell Mussatto began raising this issue publicly this spring, calling for a feasibility study. And North Vancouver-Seymour Liberal MLA Jane Thornthwaite broached the topic in the legislature twice in the last session.

But TransLink CEO Kevin Desmond has responded saying the transit authority is too focused on expanding the existing system to be getting serious about new megaprojects.

“I think the recent conversations, particularly about SkyTrain coming to the North Shore are just indicative of the thirst people have to improve the transportation infrastructure and the transit system,” he said during a recent visit to North Vancouver. “We need to start advancing the current 10-year plan, moving forward with that with the support of the new provincial government to help make that happen. Then we have to move on and think about what the next plan is and the next plan after that,” he said.

If a fixed rail bridge or tunnel to Vancouver is a high priority for residents, they should make that known in the upcoming review TransLink is doing of its 30-year regional transportation strategy, Desmond said.

But Thornthwaite isn’t waiting 30 years. She’s already drawn up a proposal including hypothetical transit map featuring a SkyTrain connection over the Second Narrows with stops across the North Shore, from Cates Park to Dundarave. And she’s started consulting with local MPs and the North Vancouver Chamber of Commerce.

“I desperately want to have the idea of a SkyTrain to the North Shore on the map of the mayors’ council,” she said. “I’m talking about a bold vision here. I think we all have to start having these conversations.”

Thornthwaite said she was inspired to lobby for a North Shore rail link because constituents in North Vancouver-Seymour have very little coming to them in terms of transit improvements.

“If we want to have any hope of encouraging and incentivizing our people to get out of their cars and take transit, we’ve got to start improving the system,” she said. “I would certainly like TransLink to consider the option of SkyTrain to the North Shore within their 10-year (transportation) plan. Right now, there’s nothing in my riding from the (mayors’) 10-year plan and there’s hardly anything for the North Shore.”

Funding is in place currently for a new SeaBus, which will allow 10-minute service during rush hour, a 30 per cent increase in regular bus service and new B-Line buses for the North Shore.

Thornthwaite said she hasn’t done any back-of-the-envelope calculations on what such a plan would cost although she conceded it would be in the billions.

“But the only way we can get an assessment going and the interest from the decision-makers like TransLink and the mayors’ council is to start talking about it. That’s what I’m trying to do. Everybody I’ve talked to thinks it’s a good idea.”

Such a rail line could even be connected to Squamish and Whistler over the longer term, Thornthwaite added.

Gordon Price, fellow with SFU’s Centre for Dialogue and former head of the university’s city program, said it’s refreshing to see the discussion of a fabled “third crossing” return but centred around mass transit for a change.

“It’s certainly doable and it could certainly be doable faster than what dreamers might think at this point. That’s a political and financial commitment,” he said.

But before North Vancouver and West Vancouver can pursue a rail link with any seriousness, they have to be able to answer some existential questions about the kind of communities they aspire to be. To justify a SkyTrain, our urban planning would have to become much more centred around transit over the long term than it currently is.

“If you’re going to be looking at something like SkyTrain rapid transit, and you should, it’s a long-term solution. We’re talking over 100 years. And it means a fundamental change in the scale, and for some parts of your community, a fundamental change in character. You’re building transit-oriented, concentrated communities with both work and play and all the rest of it,” he said. “Because otherwise, why build rapid transit?”

Park Royal would have to look more like Burnaby’s Brentwood neighbourhood, Price used as an example.

“North Van and West Vancouver would have to commit themselves to having a different kind of long-term vision for themselves, and I’m not sure that the population is yet ready for that,” he said.

But, Price noted, if the hope is that a North Shore SkyTrain would be the silver bullet to solving the bridge congestion problem, there are much cheaper and faster options within reach, namely mobility pricing. The technology to track usage of the roads and transit system in real time exists in most anyone’s smartphone, meaning it would not be difficult to charge tolls based on usage. That would be the most effective incentive for getting people and cars off the road, and speeding up the daily commutes, Price said.

“That’s going to be so much easier to do in the world we’re moving into. We’re not quite there yet but it’s happening,” he said. “The politics of that? Brutal. But it could be done.”

http://www.nsnews.com/news/north-vancouver-mla-calls-for-north-shore-skytrain-1.23067242

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Not a shock but the Translink CEO said "lol — off" to any idea of a north shore skytrain...

Thornthwaite's plan to run Skytrain across the Second Narrows would cost a fortune and wouldn't provide any faster service to central North Vancouver than the Seabus does. You could provide as much benefit as Skytrain for far cheaper cost by simply buying more Seabuses to increase their frequency to near Skytrain-like levels.

[GlassCity]

A SkyTrain over the Second Narrows and then moving west would be beneficial because it would actually ease bus traffic along Marine Drive. From what I understand, those buses are packed right now so it would help to have a faster, bigger system moving those people. It's not about moving people from the North Shore to downtown, it's about moving people within the North Shore.

As far as what TransLink's CEO is saying, I don't immediately think he's closed to the idea. I think he may just be more concerned with getting these existing projects done before worrying about the next ones. I do hope a North Shore SkyTrain is the next project up though, they need it badly.

[Mac Write]

Speaking of SeaBus, what is the max frequency Seabus can support and how many vessels would that require.

I am thinking 3-4 minute frequency, using both berths. one vessel is in unloading while the other is loading. They would basically be 2 separate route (west and east berth to berth).

Imagine a 8 vessel setup 4 per berth? The only issue is tie up as we only have 2 tie-ups+4 berths.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

A SkyTrain over the Second Narrows and then moving west would be beneficial because it would actually ease bus traffic along Marine Drive. From what I understand, those buses are packed right now so it would help to have a faster, bigger system moving those people. It's not about moving people from the North Shore to downtown, it's about moving people within the North Shore.

As far as what TransLink's CEO is saying, I don't immediately think he's closed to the idea. I think he may just be more concerned with getting these existing projects done before worrying about the next ones. I do hope a North Shore SkyTrain is the next project up though, they need it badly.

Many projects at the same time always results in disaster when someone's capital funding gets pulled, because that kills all the projects.

Like if it takes 20 years, fine. But there is room for the private sector to move up the time frame, as long as they're using compatible rollingstock and guideways.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Speaking of SeaBus, what is the max frequency Seabus can support and how many vessels would that require.

I imagine that the maximum frequency would be around 5-6 minutes if you want to maintain the ability to have one of the berths down for maintenance. That kind of redundancy was designed into every aspect of the system, and it's the reason that the Seabus is our most reliable piece of transit infrastructure.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Thornthwaite's plan to run Skytrain across the Second Narrows would cost a fortune and wouldn't provide any faster service to central North Vancouver than the Seabus does. You could provide as much benefit as Skytrain for far cheaper cost by simply buying more Seabuses to increase their frequency to near Skytrain-like levels.

Seabus combined with two transfers and the long walk to/from waterfront station is too slow for most people as discussed many times before and a skytrain to Phibbs would be enough to end the daily 3pm traffic seizure.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's not about moving people from the North Shore to downtown, it's about moving people within the North Shore.

The biggest source of traffic was proven to be people who don't live in the north shore commuting to the north shore for work. Which is why the biggest traffic jam is post-3pm southbound, and why a skytrain is needed even if residential growth in the region is limited. North Van is a much bigger employment area than most people seem to realize.

[twoNeurons]

Tolling the Lion's Gate during peak periods would drastically reduce traffic jams. You'd have more people reconsider the commute.

Bill it as saving up for a third crossing. All money collected on the toll goes towards a third crossing. Once it reaches 50% of funding, build the 3rd crossing. Of all the bridges in the Metro Vancouver area, the Lion's Gate makes the MOST sense to toll. Direct access to the downtown peninsula... is a convenience charge that should be levied.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Tolling the Lion's Gate during peak periods would drastically reduce traffic jams. You'd have more people reconsider the commute.

Bill it as saving up for a third crossing. All money collected on the toll goes towards a third crossing. Once it reaches 50% of funding, build the 3rd crossing. Of all the bridges in the Metro Vancouver area, the Lion's Gate makes the MOST sense to toll. Direct access to the downtown peninsula... is a convenience charge that should be levied.

Burrard, Granville and Cambie also go into the downtown core. Toll them too while you're at it.

[MIPS]

I mean, if anything you could use the tolling to persuade people to use alternate routes and reduce the amount of through traffic in the downtown core.
As we saw with that Pattullo, people will take the free route even if it takes a little longer.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Burrard, Granville and Cambie also go into the downtown core. Toll them too while you're at it.

Force the cheapskates to go around False Creek.

[jollyburger]

Or you could just tax every car that comes into the downtown core.. oh hello mobility pricing.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Seabus combined with two transfers and the long walk to/from waterfront station is too slow for most people as discussed many times before and a skytrain to Phibbs would be enough to end the daily 3pm traffic seizure.

How would you get skytrain to north van? Tunnel like Bart from Embacadero to Oakland?

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

How would you get skytrain to north van? Tunnel like Bart from Embacadero to Oakland?

The trick in building a great rapid transit system is where it ends up. The trick is not how you get across the water.

So follow this idea:

along Georgia, through Stanley Park and underwater east of Lions Gate.

Up Cap road, with one station at Marine Drive.

Continue along Cap Road until you hit the Upper levels.

At the intersection of Cap Road and Upper levels, there are two cloverleafs with room inside them.

That is where the RR terminates AND that is where you build a bus loop like Phipps Exchange - in the cloverleafs.

Buses from there can run along the UL both east and west, they can run to Horseshoe Bay and bring all the foot passenger traffic right to the RR system.

Similarly that is where "ski buses" for all three mountains on the North Shore and Whistler can come and go.

Not bringing many buses over the Lions Gate means more frequent service all over west and north van.

People would use this system.

Now if the plan is to go the Lonsdale route, make sure the RR terminates at a bus exchange on the UL as well.

[cganuelas1995]

I'm curious to know if there would be any benefit to extending the 640 to follow along the 601's South Delta portion.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I'm curious to know if there would be any benefit to extending the 640 to follow along the 601's South Delta portion.

Probably not, it would just create redundancy. It's not the most heavily traveled route, and it's an easy transfer from the 601 to the 640 at Ladner Exchange. The 601 should be made more frequent instead.

[wrenegade]

It would be best to have "Phase 1" of Skytrain on the North Shore as a Park Royal - Lonsdale Quay - Phibbs Exchange east-west route, with the potential to expand over either or both narrows to connect to Vancouver.

Also, how about some moving sidewalks on the flyover from the Seabus terminal to Waterfront station? In the grand scheme of things it would cost peanuts but make a noticeable difference in actually getting you to Waterfront.

[Mac Write]

100% agree moving walkways for the overhead to the sea bus would be a masive benefit. Also would help at other bus exchanges to Skytrain transfers with long walks (Brentwood, Waterfront Caanda Line Waterfront west, and so on).

Moving walkways would drastically improve usability for the elderly snd disabled.

Wave Escalators would be perfect example it starts as a moving walkway along the overhead to the sea bus then becomes escalator and then moving walkway again.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by wrenegade

It would be best to have "Phase 1" of Skytrain on the North Shore as a Park Royal - Lonsdale Quay - Phibbs Exchange east-west route, with the potential to expand over either or both narrows to connect to Vancouver.

Also, how about some moving sidewalks on the flyover from the Seabus terminal to Waterfront station? In the grand scheme of things it would cost peanuts but make a noticeable difference in actually getting you to Waterfront.

I think a Park Royal - Phibbs Exchange line is the obvious needed route, but I worry that it would over-burden Lonsdale Quay. That's why I'd want any line (regardless of how far west it goes) to travel past Phibbs Exchange and terminate at Brentwood Station to spread out connection opportunities.