DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

PS, let's do a quick compare/contrast:

Current Denver metro area population: 2,853,077
Current Nashville metro area population: 1,865,298

Current Denver transit ridership: 265,900/day
Current Nashville transit ridership: 30,600/day

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

PS, let's do a quick compare/contrast:

Current Denver metro area population: 2,853,077
Current Nashville metro area population: 1,865,298

Current Denver transit ridership: 265,900/day
Current Nashville transit ridership: 30,600/day

Need to compare Denver when FasTracks was proposed (Early 2000s) to current Nashville.

And RTD has purged 65k daily riders since 2nd quarter 2016 (335k daily riders). Ouch.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Nashville is proposing a FasTracks-like transit package, and it includes a mile-long subway for light rail and buses, just like Seattle's.

Curious for anyone in the know at RTD or the City of Denver: has there been any serious consideration of building a cut-and-cover tunnel between Union Station and Civic Center for buses (and eventually trains I would hope)? Particularly within the framework of Denver Moves. Seattle built their bus tunnel in the 80s to speed up buses and added trains two decades later. As someone who often takes the bus across the city center, it's painful how slow it is to get through downtown and I am sure it will only get worse as traffic increases. Seems that if we ever want efficient, big city mass transit in the city core, we gotta get the ball rolling on underground right of way.

(Side note: about a year ago I stumbled upon a plan fromthe 60s or 70s that would have put two perpendicular subway tunnels through downtown, meeting at approximately Arapahoe and 16th. Anyone have a link with these maps/information? Can't find anything via the Googles.)

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Curious for anyone in the know at RTD or the City of Denver: has there been any serious consideration of building a cut-and-cover tunnel between Union Station and Civic Center for buses (and eventually trains I would hope)? Particularly within the framework of Denver Moves. Seattle built their bus tunnel in the 80s to speed up buses and added trains two decades later. As someone who often takes the bus across the city center, it's painful how slow it is to get through downtown and I am sure it will only get worse as traffic increases. Seems that if we ever want efficient, big city mass transit in the city core, we gotta get the ball rolling on underground right of way.

(Side note: about a year ago I stumbled upon a plan fromthe 60s or 70s that would have put two perpendicular subway tunnels through downtown, meeting at approximately Arapahoe and 16th. Anyone have a link with these maps/information? Can't find anything via the Googles.)

The 1986 Downtown Area Plan proposed a grade-separated transit facility between CCS and DUS. It was on 15th.

I think the latest thinking is how can we prioritize bus operations on surface streets through transit-only facilities (likely 15th and 17th) while maintaining the need for a tunnel as a long-term option. This is likely to played out in the upcoming Denver Moves: Downtown plan.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Need to compare Denver when FasTracks was proposed (Early 2000s) to current Nashville.

1996 Denver transit ridership (the oldest easily fetchable): 138,000 per day (12,800 on LRT, the rest bus).

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

The 1986 Downtown Area Plan proposed a grade-separated transit facility between CCS and DUS. It was on 15th.

I think the latest thinking is how can we prioritize bus operations on surface streets through transit-only facilities (likely 15th and 17th) while maintaining the need for a tunnel as a long-term option. This is likely to played out in the upcoming Denver Moves: Downtown plan.

Thanks for the info and map. This tunnel has been a long time coming. Bus only lanes would help for some routes, but even then there are so many lights and stops, only so much relief will be provided.

I believe there was also an earlier-still proposal with similar alignment, but all underground. I likely stumbled across it from a Reddit post. If I find the source again, I'll share with the forum.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

1996 Denver transit ridership (the oldest easily fetchable): 138,000 per day (12,800 on LRT, the rest bus).

Thanks.

Even then, that's a substantial difference in ridership (and culture around transit). But I guess you have to start somewhere.

A Nashville contingency came to Denver awhile back while they were in the planning phase for this proposal. Unfortunately, they are likely to make the same mistakes we have.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

PS, let's do a quick compare/contrast:

Current Denver metro area population: 2,853,077
Current Nashville metro area population: 1,865,298

Current Denver transit ridership: 265,900/day
Current Nashville transit ridership: 30,600/day

Yeesh, 26 miles of light and a tunnel for $5.2B. Fastracks-esque, but is it the same bang for the buck?

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

1996 Denver transit ridership (the oldest easily fetchable): 138,000 per day (12,800 on LRT, the rest bus).

And Denver's 1996 MSA population was around 2.1 million, including Boulder/Longmont (1.9 million without)

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Even then, that's a substantial difference in ridership (and culture around transit). But I guess you have to start somewhere.

That's sort of my point. If Nashville can pull off a downtown subway, maybe we shouldn't be so pessimistic about Denver's chances of ever doing it.

Granted, it would've been easier as part of FasTracks.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

That's sort of my point. If Nashville can pull off a downtown subway, maybe we shouldn't be so pessimistic about Denver's chances of ever doing it.

Granted, it would've been easier as part of FasTracks.

Yeah, that's the rub; it needs to be a part of a bigger program, IMO.

I mean, how many bus transit tunnels are there in the US? If I'm a city, I'm looking to dedicate space at the street-level first, then consider grade-separation when warranted (as part of bigger package). 15th moves like 300-400 buses a day, same for 17th. 18th does similar numbers in a few sections. I think Seattle bus tunnel is doing 80 buses an hour (plus similar numbers for 4th at street-level).

Don't get me wrong, I think it's both possible and potentially needed, just tough to do.

The bigger, more pressing issue is the LRT loop capacity. It's maxed out. It needs relief yesterday.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Nashville is proposing a FasTracks-like transit package, and it includes a mile-long subway for light rail and buses, just like Seattle's.

Link to story


image from the Tennessean

I am totally impressed

Admittedly I haven't 'gotten to know Nashville' but first impression is that this is a Home Run for them.

Barry presented the legacy-defining and likely controversial project to city leaders and Metro Council members at Music City Center on Tuesday morning. Three former Nashville mayors — Karl Dean, Bill Purcell and Phil Bredesen — were among those on hand.

Barry, speaking before an overflow room of primarily transit bootsers, said more transportation options will improve Nashville’s quality of life...

Ooo, that tunnel

A 1.8-mile, three-stop tunnel under downtown — first reported by The Tennessean last week — would stretch from Music City Central, the city’s bus hub on Charlotte Avenue, north-south under Fifth Avenue South to Lafayette Street, where an additional hub would be built.

Is a tunnel really necessary?

Early on in design work for the light rail plan, project leaders deemed a tunnel under downtown necessary because of downtown’s congestion and narrow streets. Building on downtown streets would have also presented complicated right-of-way acquisitions

I like that the light rail is limited to four corridors while the rest will get BRT.

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

I think Seattle bus tunnel is doing 80 buses an hour

...and those days are numbered. What an interesting mess they'll have when they pull the buses out of the tunnel next year.

[seventwenty]

I honestly wonder how the Tennessee legislature will fuck this one up.

The legislature lead efforts to block Nashville's BRT efforts, possibly because poor people and also tourists. I think it originally stated no BRT dropoffs on state highways. While those legislative efforts fell flat in a compromise bill, the effect worked. No BRT.

More info here: http://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/article/20493001/amp-haunting-nashville-from-the-grave and here https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/bl...mp-but-opponents-aren-t-spiking-the.html

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Need to compare Denver when FasTracks was proposed (Early 2000s) to current Nashville.

So, this proposal in Nashville is just for Davidson County (Nashville) not the entire metro area. Given the size of the city of Nashville, this would just be like Denver itself proposing a $6B transit package. So it's not FasTracks, but rather what Denver Moves could be.

Would we be willing to shoulder a tax hike for $6B in transit, bikes, and sidewalks?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

15th moves like 300-400 buses a day, same for 17th. 18th does similar numbers in a few sections.

I don't know bus routes () or where they go but assuming the budget wasn't an issue - would they be ideal for "enhanced" service with some amount of dedicated lanes? IIRC, Seattle now has two downtown streets that have dedicated lanes for 5/6 blocks.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

So, this proposal in Nashville is just for Davidson County (Nashville) not the entire metro area. Given the size of the city of Nashville, this would just be like Denver itself proposing a $6B transit package. So it's not FasTracks, but rather what Denver Moves could be.

Would we be willing to shoulder a tax hike for $6B in transit, bikes, and sidewalks?

I don't see it as remotely possibly. Consider that the best Seattle has done as a city was the $930 million Move Seattle that passed in 2015. Everything else and it's a shit-ton are efforts of the metro area Sound Transit ie ST2 and especially ST3.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

I honestly wonder how the Tennessee legislature will fuck this one up.

The legislature lead efforts to block Nashville's BRT efforts, possibly because poor people and also tourists. I think it originally stated no BRT dropoffs on state highways. While those legislative efforts fell flat in a compromise bill, the effect worked. No BRT.

More info here: http://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/article/20493001/amp-haunting-nashville-from-the-grave and here https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/bl...mp-but-opponents-aren-t-spiking-the.html

Interesting... but things can change over time and it's now 3/4 years later. Megan Barry seems to be very popular so it should be interesting.

I have read in the last year or so that at least at the state level they're coming around to transit being a piece of their future. One advantage Tennessee has, is compared to CO and CDOT Tennessee roads are well rated and to date it's all been pay-as-you-go.

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

I honestly wonder how the Tennessee legislature will fuck this one up.

The legislature lead efforts to block Nashville's BRT efforts, possibly because poor people and also tourists. I think it originally stated no BRT dropoffs on state highways. While those legislative efforts fell flat in a compromise bill, the effect worked. No BRT.

More info here: http://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/article/20493001/amp-haunting-nashville-from-the-grave and here https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/bl...mp-but-opponents-aren-t-spiking-the.html

As a former Nashvillian and someone who still considers it his home town, I can unequivocally say that I share your concerns. Many state legislators seem to despise Nashville, even though it's the main economic engine of the state, and even though they all basically work/live there for part of the year. This feeling seems to come primarily from a sense that Nashville gets a disproportional portion of state funding... but it should. Sorry Bucksnort (a real town name lol) you just aren't as important as a metro of two million that doubles as the state capital.

[seventwenty]

Changing subjects, new Colorado bike shares this fall:

Zagster/M-Bike in Meridian:

A Douglas County business park has unchained a bike share program it hopes will take a bite out of the number of car trips that occur within its boundaries every day and help address the “first mile/last mile” dilemma transit users often face.

M-Bike, as the Meridian Metro District has dubbed its program, went live Wednesday. It features 50 bikes at 11 stations scattered around the Meridian International Business Center, a 1,685-acre mixed-used area roughly located southeast of the C-470–Interstate 25 interchange.

. . .

Big-time employers like engineering giant CH2M Hill call Meridian home. There are six apartment complexes and 40 retailers there too, officials say. All told, 20,000 people spend at least part of their day there, Hecox said. District leadership performed a bike share feasibility study over the winter and received lots of positive feedback from district occupants. Meridian identified Massachusetts-based bike-sharing specialist Zagster as its preferred partner and M-Bike was born. Bikes are available to everyone who visits Meridian through the Zagster mobile app. The cost is $2 per hour. Bikes are available 24 hours per day.

. . .

The metro district has underwritten the $90,000 cost to launch the program and already has plans to double its size with a second phase in the spring, Hecox said. Right now, project partners include CH2M Hill, and the Zenith and Vela apartment complexes. Each has its own station among the 11 that opened Wednesday, and their tenants and/or employees have free bike access. Officials hope more businesses will sign up as partners in Phase 2. Along with rider feedback and user data gathered over the next few months, those partnerships will influence the location of future stations, Hecox said.

Keep in mind the area around the Lincoln and 25 looks like this:



Yes that in the M-Bike station kinda in the middle. No. Not that middle. That middle is a cornfield.

LimeBike in Aurora:

Aurora Sentinel

LimeBike launched in Aurora last week with 250 bikes for rent at busy spots throughout the city, marking the first city-approved bike share company to offer their service in Aurora. The California-based company also offers their bikes in several other states, but the Aurora program is their first foray into the Colorado market.

. . .

In general, bike shares allow people to rent a bike for a short ride at a low cost — with LimeBike, it costs $1 for the first 30 minutes.

But many of the systems require cyclists to pick their bike up at a designated rack, or “dock,” and drop them either at the same spot or another designated dock. That’s how Denver’s B-cycle program works.

LimeBike is different in that it’s dockless. Bikes are monitored by GPS, and cyclists can pick them up wherever they find one. The LimeBike cell phone app has a map showing where available bikes are, similar to Car2Go.

. . .

For now, the company asks that riders don’t ride their bikes from Aurora into Denver or onto the Anschutz Medical Campus — two places LimeBike has yet to work out the sort of permitting deal they have with Aurora. But Mary Caroline Pruitt, a spokeswoman for the company, said they hope to have those deals completed soon.

“While we don’t have timing specifics, we have reached out to Anschutz, and hope to bring LimeBike to its campuses in the future. We have also had positive discussions with the city of Denver, and look forward to continuing these collaborative conversations so that people throughout the greater Denver area can rely on LimeBike as their convenient, sustainable transportation option,” she said in an email.

So, Meridian is a B-Cycle style bike sharing service that serves... office parks in a 1,600 acre (2 mile) area.

LimeBike is Car2Go style service that serves the Aurora Mall/city hall area.

Bets on LimeBike, especially since a saw a half dozen of them scattered about.

[PLANSIT]

Dockless bikeshare is the future. Denver will have it soon once some regulatory items are ironed out.

[seventwenty]

I wonder how M-Bike handles commuter flows. The Lincoln/25 station had a max of 15 docks. What happens at 8:30 when all the bikes are gone? What about 5:10 when all the docks are full? There isn’t a nearby docking station. But there is a golf course to bike around.