Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You can remove trees, right?

Good Day...

yup, THEY can, any time any place. (you or I cannot - rules and regs, you know!)

The point is that they should not have planted it in the first place.... especially at this time when under discussion with Transport Canada.

No.... it is that it is entirely emblematic and illustrative of the attitude towards Gatineau expansion anytime soon.

just... not nice.

NoJoy. (and for Harls..... been using the item and variants on "EnJoy!" since I joined.... Thought it was the polite way to express / sum-up the general tone and point of my post. EnJoy! )

[kevinbottawa]

The hole on Rideau Street is finally closed. Looking forward to finally having a sidewalk again.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Many of the buses are nearing their end of life, so they will need to be retired soon anyway. In the meantime Stage 2 construction will have the Trillium line replaced by buses, so many will be assigned there.

That's crazy when you think about it. The old buses were on the road for 30-40 years. Many of them were only retired when the City decided it was time for an all accessible fleet (rightfully so).

The problem ridden New Flyers bought in the early 2000s were replaced around what, 2012 when New Flyer made the city an "amazing" deal; "We'll take back your lemons if you buy, at a small discount, the rejects from a now cancelled Chicago contract."

[1overcosc]

The lifespan of a bus is around 15 years.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.....

Kinda says it all, doesn't it ! !

So much for any concept of an idea for a plan to expand across to Gatineau, in any way, shape, form, direction ! !

NoJoy!

No.

The plan (along with the plan for Stage 2) leaves the tracks open to continue back to the bridge.

Here's a crude mockup of what that would look like.


Here's what the plan for Stage 2 looks like (from geoOttawa)


Notice that the O-Train is double platformed at Bayview.. seems perfect for continuing to Gatineau!

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

No.

The plan (along with the plan for Stage 2) leaves the tracks open to continue back to the bridge.

Here's a crude mockup of what that would look like.


Here's what the plan for Stage 2 looks like (from geoOttawa)


Notice that the O-Train is double platformed at Bayview.. seems perfect for continuing to Gatineau!

Yeah, it's definitely not being cut off. Moose's talk about it being cut off is that the new route doesn't have enough clearance for full size locomotives (but plenty for our Euro low floor diesels)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Yeah, it's definitely not being cut off. Moose's talk about it being cut off is that the new route doesn't have enough clearance for full size locomotives (but plenty for our Euro low floor diesels)

If it were just the locomotives, it wouldn't be much of a problem as Moose could use DMUs, but Moose is insisting that they need to use bi-level coaches, which need as much clearance as the locomotives.

BTW, the Trillium line is also using a type of DMU, it is just the ones they are using don't meet North American crash worthiness standards for use on an active rail line.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day....

never said it was being cut off.... just ridiculous that it was being 'obstructed', and helps define that they have little interest in it anytime in the near future.
The whole concept of where the current, and even the Stage 1, platforms are located (both in terms of position and elevation) was always ridiculous. The past made sense; they needed to allow freight passage, but when they furthur developed, they cheaped out and stuck it where it was. Then they furthur cheaped out in Stage 1, and completely re-built it - where it was !
I am glad to see the geomap you found - that the Stage 2 plans have a 2 track /side platforms layout, but it is still early days and could be cheaped out yet, especially given that it shows the freight or standard RoW to the west side still, and the platforms hard and probably still elevated to the east side.
(Better yet, maybe space for WestSideAction's concept for a separate pilot from Bayview over to Hull-Aylmer-Gatineau, which could then be converted to the proper Gatineau extension out of the Trillium Line's dual platforms later ? , leaving room still for freight and or Moose on that West side ?) So many choices, so many possibilities, so many ways to foul up.
Hope springs eternal...... but so does paranoia.

I hope the 3 bidder finalists take note of all the ideas - and the problems - as per the Trillium Line STOP blow-by just revealed. We shall see.

EnJoy?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day....

never said it was being cut off.... just ridiculous that it was being 'obstructed', and helps define that they have little interest in it anytime in the near future.
The whole concept of where the current, and even the Stage 1, platforms are located (both in terms of position and elevation) was always ridiculous. The past made sense; they needed to allow freight passage, but when they furthur developed, they cheaped out and stuck it where it was. Then they furthur cheaped out in Stage 1, and completely re-built it - where it was !
I am glad to see the geomap you found - that the Stage 2 plans have a 2 track /side platforms layout, but it is still early days and could be cheaped out yet, especially given that it shows the freight or standard RoW to the west side still, and the platforms hard and probably still elevated to the east side.
(Better yet, maybe space for WestSideAction's concept for a separate pilot from Bayview over to Hull-Aylmer-Gatineau, which could then be converted to the proper Gatineau extension out of the Trillium Line's dual platforms later ? , leaving room still for freight and or Moose on that West side ?) So many choices, so many possibilities, so many ways to foul up.
Hope springs eternal...... but so does paranoia.

I hope the 3 bidder finalists take note of all the ideas - and the problems - as per the Trillium Line STOP blow-by just revealed. We shall see.

EnJoy?

IIRC the reason they rebuilt Bayview was because the original collapsed by accident.

I think the western platform for the Trillium Line will be in its final location once Stage 1 is complete. For Stage 2, they'll just need to build the other platform and lay the rail down. If they do cheap out, at least there will be one platform that could be continued to the bridge.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

IIRC the reason they rebuilt Bayview was because the original collapsed by accident.

I think the western platform for the Trillium Line will be in its final location once Stage 1 is complete. For Stage 2, they'll just need to build the other platform and lay the rail down. If they do cheap out, at least there will be one platform that could be continued to the bridge.

Good Day...

nope, the reason they rebuilt Bayview is because they planned to rebuild Bayview. The plan is being executed as per contract plan, which was to have the station integral to the bridge. The pre-contract plans having the station just to the east were redrawn by RTG for several reasons, including for a better alignment, more compact construction, and -critically - the old bridge was dead, rotted out by possibly poor construction and definitely excess salt. RTG, being responsible for 30 year maintenance, make the absolutely sensible decision to rebuild from scratch, rather than try to reuse and re-purpose as per the originally expressed intent to reduce costs. The old bridge collapsed 19 Feb 2016 as it was being demolished, crashing down on top of a demolition machine and just missing the driver. A beam of the bridge utterly flattened a rail of the old PoW connector. There was a report to the city from RTG, and there was an investigation of the collapse by Ontario Ministry of Labour, neither of the results of which we ever heard, AFAIK.
April 3 2016 WestSideAction website: http://www.westsideaction.com/bayview-station/
As for alignments for present use and future expansion - the reality is that we know absolutely nothing. We are still, even at this point, all guessing as to possibilities and potential plans, since both the City and RTG have never released any plans nor intentions since the contract began (total silence and 'confidentiality' !). We have only seen what is to be built as it was being built, and making assumptions and expressing hopes based on those observations. Naturally we are all hoping for the best, or at least reasonable. We fear the worst, and get no reassurances from any quarter.
Thus the saga continues, and we will see what we get, and how it works, as a fait accompli, finished.

Hopefully EnJoy!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

leaving room still for freight and or Moose on that West side ?)

Not sure anyone will ever run freight trains on that track again. As for Moose, no point having a separate platform for them. As discussed in the Rural Commuter rail thread, the trains Moose plan on using can't share the track with the O-Train, so their plan revolves around OC Transpo deciding to stop running the O-Train between Greenboro and Bayview in favour of Moose trains.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not sure anyone will ever run freight trains on that track again. As for Moose, no point having a separate platform for them. As discussed in the Rural Commuter rail thread, the trains Moose plan on using can't share the track with the O-Train, so their plan revolves around OC Transpo deciding to stop running the O-Train between Greenboro and Bayview in favour of Moose trains.

Good Day..... agreed, mostly.

I only kept those two (remote) possibilities in the loop for the sake of completeness. I sincerely and extremely doubt anything but LRT (I hope, with separate sides of pedestrians and cycles) will ever run on PoW ever again. That being said, as was mentioned earlier, the original PoW connector was at base groundlevel, and could have accommodated even bilevel commuter trainsets, and if Moose could have been happy to terminate at Bayview, then a separate single platform on the west side could conceivably accommodate a dead-end terminus. No way Moose would ever accept, agree to, or be satisfied with that, so it is indeed a non-starter now. IMHO, Moose is only needle-under-the-fingernails nit-picking a fight at this location. But that's my opinion. The only question remaining is WHEN will OC-T, City, NCC, and Gatineau get off their tails and run an LRT over the PoW to anywhere. <sigh>

[Catenary]

Does the construction update this week seem more in-depth than usual? In the past, there was lots of technical language used, but there wasn't a huge level of detail. Some items might have been repeated a few weeks in a row ("works start soon"). Now, there is lots of technical language, and some fairly in-depth details, like which concrete pour they're working on.

They also mention that work continues on the Hurdman Bus Loop, which should really be the Hurdman PPUDO.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

What did the engineer/planner reply?

He was dumbfounded for a second. So was I think a lot of the audience. There were a lot of loud groans from the audience. And then the engineer proceeded to calmly reiterate various issues on capacity through the core, etc. The questioner kept saying, "But we're not Toronto....I don't understand...." Eventually, one of the councillors simply said, "We have to take other questions." and moved on.

But people like this exist. They are clueless. And remarkably, they actually participate in the civic process.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He was dumbfounded for a second. So was I think a lot of the audience. There were a lot of loud groans from the audience. And then the engineer proceeded to calmly reiterate various issues on capacity through the core, etc. The questioner kept saying, "But we're not Toronto....I don't understand...." Eventually, one of the councillors simply said, "We have to take other questions." and moved on.

But people like this exist. They are clueless. And remarkably, they actually participate in the civic process.

To a person like that I think a more convincing argument would be that Ottawa's roughly the same size Toronto was when it built its first rail rapid transit line.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To a person like that I think a more convincing argument would be that Ottawa's roughly the same size Toronto was when it built its first rail rapid transit line.

Vancouver would be an even better example, but I think there's no convincing people like that. Ottawa is now on that border between mid size city and big city, and we're starting to get big city things. There's a lot of resistance to that idea I find, people seem to want to keep Ottawa frozen the way it was.

[caveat.doctor]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He was dumbfounded for a second. So was I think a lot of the audience. There were a lot of loud groans from the audience. And then the engineer proceeded to calmly reiterate various issues on capacity through the core, etc. The questioner kept saying, "But we're not Toronto....I don't understand...." Eventually, one of the councillors simply said, "We have to take other questions." and moved on.

Well, it's reassuring that at least some of the audience also thought it was a dumb perspective and groaned along with the rest of us! Would have been better for the councillor to have made a more spirited defence of rail, but at least the questioner was cut off.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To a person like that I think a more convincing argument would be that Ottawa's roughly the same size Toronto was when it built its first rail rapid transit line.

Perhaps - comparing to other cities works if the opponent is of the sort who wants Ottawa to "keep up", but not if they're fine with stagnation. Helping them realise that the status quo actually makes their life personally worse could also work (e.g. "Don't you hate it when you're driving and get stuck behind a slow bus? I do too. It's only going to get worse with more buses. But a train runs on its own track so it stays out of your way.")

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To a person like that I think a more convincing argument would be that Ottawa's roughly the same size Toronto was when it built its first rail rapid transit line.

The engineer made several comparisons to Calgary and Edmonton and European cities of about the same size as Ottawa in the presentation.

Do you think this makes a difference to such people?

His basic complaint was that the government was blowing money and that Ottawa didn't need such a "fancy" system. I suspect, the guy was probably not even a transit user.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Vancouver would be an even better example, but I think there's no convincing people like that. Ottawa is now on that border between mid size city and big city, and we're starting to get big city things. There's a lot of resistance to that idea I find, people seem to want to keep Ottawa frozen the way it was.

What I find is that a lot of people are just clueless to how big Ottawa really is. We're the capital of a a G8 country. We have the 5th largest metro population in Canada. The CMA population is even greater than Edmonton.df And no rail transport yet. That's incredible.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Vancouver would be an even better example, but I think there's no convincing people like that. Ottawa is now on that border between mid size city and big city, and we're starting to get big city things. There's a lot of resistance to that idea I find, people seem to want to keep Ottawa frozen the way it was.

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

Perhaps - comparing to other cities works if the opponent is of the sort who wants Ottawa to "keep up", but not if they're fine with stagnation. Helping them realise that the status quo actually makes their life personally worse could also work (e.g. "Don't you hate it when you're driving and get stuck behind a slow bus? I do too. It's only going to get worse with more buses. But a train runs on its own track so it stays out of your way.")

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The engineer made several comparisons to Calgary and Edmonton and European cities of about the same size as Ottawa in the presentation.

Do you think this makes a difference to such people?

His basic complaint was that the government was blowing money and that Ottawa didn't need such a "fancy" system. I suspect, the guy was probably not even a transit user.

I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make a difference anyway and you're right that this person is probably just happy with the status quo and wouldn't want to change it. I was just thinking if their issue is that Ottawa's too small compared to Toronto for this, than comparing the situation to Toronto (which is directly comparable) would be a more convincing argument than capacity, etc.