Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Totally agree with this. People take transit for the convenience, not because they love trains.

*Worn out and graffiti-covered train half-full of homeless people and junkies lighting up or shooting up inside comes screeching into the station*

Everyone: YAY!!!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

*Worn out and graffiti-covered train half-full of homeless people and junkies lighting up or shooting up inside comes screeching into the station*

Everyone: YAY!!!

That's called the New York Subway. It's the busiest metro system in the Western hemisphere and the largest on planet Earth.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

This is the kind of thinking that got us into this situation in the first place. Who cares if it's quality, so long as it's a train.

That's not how people or transportation works.

If it's not quality, then nobody will ride it unless they have to. That's why there's a litany of LRTs in the US with crap levels of ridership, and why Broadway carries more riders on buses than most LRT lines do.

Bang on.

I own a vehicle and started working downtown recently. I take the skytrain because it's more convenient than driving.

Skytrain = hub densification around stations, & good fast movement between hubs.

LRT = transformation along corridors & medium speed movement between stations.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Bang on.

I own a vehicle and started working downtown recently. I take the skytrain because it's more convenient than driving.

Skytrain = hub densification around stations, & good fast movement between hubs.

LRT = transformation along corridors & medium speed movement between stations.

Also in addition to the fast movement, the best thing about the skytrain is the low headway time between trains. I don't even need to check when the next train is coming - they come that often.

[Trainguy]

Here is what's in store for Surrey...

6 October 2017

Pedestrian Wearing Earbuds Fatally Struck by Edmonton LRT

Edmonton Alberta - A 22-year-old pedestrian had earbuds in when he was fatally struck by an LRT train Friday, Edmonton police said.

The police major collision investigation section investigated the collision at 115A Street and 60 Avenue around noon Friday and determined the death to be accidental, police said in an email just after 15:00, Friday.

Photo "This is a very unfortunate accident and very tragic for his family," Sgt. Rick Evans of the major collision investigation unit said in a follow-up news release.

"Investigations reveal that after stopping for the eastbound train to pass, he didn't hear the westbound LRT when walking in the crossing and walked into its path."

It was reported by witnesses that the man was crossing northbound in a marked LRT pedestrian crossing, said police.

City buses replaced LRT service between South Campus and Century Park stations as officers investigated.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Here is what's in store for Surrey...

We've already got that going on in White Rock...

[cornholio]

Trams / LRT is is metal on metal trains. In a urban environment it is anything but pleasant to live on a street with them, or to walk down a street with them. Thats not to say they are not good in some situations I suppose...though the verdict for me is still out on that.

Grade separated skytrain is I can assure you cheaper then LRT in surrey (as far as I know the price to build the guide ways has continually fallen). On top of it skytrain doesn't split a community, doesn't take up as much precious space, and is no louder then LRT and in fact quieter for people on street level, and can be completely silent if proper sound barriers/tubes were built like in many other parts of the world (you cant do that with LRT).

[Reecemartin]

In response to the argument that mode doesn’t matter, that’s certainly not true. More than one study has shown that people are more inclined to ride rail transit than buses with all other factors being the same.

The post about Edmonton harkens back to a conversation we had months ago, people will do reckless stupid things no matter what and someone could just as easily fallen off the platform and had been drunk and not able to get back off before a train rolled in and hit them (yes I know the sensors exist ). Edmonton’s LRT is far from the best anyways with really low speeds and poor design on the Metro Line.

It’s not hard to find plenty of examples of why we shouldn’t ride LRT or Skytrain, or Drive or even ever leave our homes for that matter but it’s not advancing the conversation on how Surreys very likely to be LRT based system can best serve the public.

At this point I’d say there probably at least 80% probability the LRT will be built so once again debating its efficacy is probably a hopeless endeavour.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I've generally heard that the ridership advantage for rail transit relative to buses is primarily based on the perceived permanence of the rail versus a bus route. Since a bus has less infrastructure it's by definition more prone to change than rail modes.

People for instance would more likely to based decisions to move to a location based on rail than on a prominent bus route, because the rail option is less able to be changed.

I think that may have been the subject of Jarrett Walker post a while ago, or something similar. I can't remember where I read it, but it makes sense. If there was a 20% chance the 99 BLine was going to get axed in the next decade, I wouldn't spend money trying to establish a routine based on that being a primary transport mode. If a subway or LRT got built, it's highly unlikely that they'll stop being utilized unless Goodyear, Firestone and GM suddenly decide to start buying transit systems again.

The counter to that argument that I'd think is applicable, is that if you have to worry about the mode permanence being the main attractant (rather than utility), then you're probably throwing money away on underutilized infrastructure regardless.

If the appearance of permanence is a factor, then works that are much cheaper than building an LRT could be implemented on a rapid bus network. Trolley wires for instance, more substantial shelters, queue jumpers, etc.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In response to the argument that mode doesn’t matter, that’s certainly not true. More than one study has shown that people are more inclined to ride rail transit than buses with all other factors being the same.

The post about Edmonton harkens back to a conversation we had months ago, people will do reckless stupid things no matter what and someone could just as easily fallen off the platform and had been drunk and not able to get back off before a train rolled in and hit them (yes I know the sensors exist ). Edmonton’s LRT is far from the best anyways with really low speeds and poor design on the Metro Line.

It’s not hard to find plenty of examples of why we shouldn’t ride LRT or Skytrain, or Drive or even ever leave our homes for that matter but it’s not advancing the conversation on how Surreys very likely to be LRT based system can best serve the public.

At this point I’d say there probably at least 80% probability the LRT will be built so once again debating its efficacy is probably a hopeless endeavour.

No one has died yet being hit by a Skytrain car. However, LRT in Calgary and Edmonton have not been that clean. Mixing trains, cars, and people at street level is a recipe for accidents and death. The design of the Surrey vanity LRT wish project is very poor. Besides, less than 100% funding = no LRT.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

No one has died yet being hit by a Skytrain car. However, LRT in Calgary and Edmonton have not been that clean. Mixing trains, cars, and people at street level is a recipe for accidents and death. The design of the Surrey vanity LRT wish project is very poor. Besides, less than 100% funding = no LRT.

Is that true? I had heard that there are plenty of incidents of people jumping in front of the train. Pretty much most of the time the tracks are shut down for a "medical emergency".

Though I had also been told people are usually just mangled since the trains are slowing down on entry to stations, & there's not much room under the rails because of the LIM panels. Not sure if I believe that 0 have died though.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Is that true? I had heard that there are plenty of incidents of people jumping in front of the train. Pretty much most of the time the tracks are shut down for a "medical emergency".

Though I had also been told people are usually just mangled since the trains are slowing down on entry to stations, & there's not much room under the rails because of the LIM panels. Not sure if I believe that 0 have died though.

The way you word it matters. The computer-controlled SELTRAC system has never been responsible for anyones death, where as human drivers on both grade-separated and at-grade systems have killed pedestrians or people who have fallen into the guideway and hesitated in stopping the train, or the train had too much speed.

Every time someone is killed on a driver-based system, that is one less person capable of driving the train, and one person you will be paying PTSD disability for years. That is a hidden cost of human drivers. Bus drivers tend not kill pedestrians or passengers because they have more stopping distance and move at slower speeds, but even then it still happens.

But has the physical skytrain cars killed anyone (eg by virtue of people purposely falling in or being pushed into the guideway as the train arrives). The LIM itself probably makes it difficult for someone to die by being crushed under the train and more likely people would die from being dragged along that cheese-grater heatsink between the LIM and the rails on the Expo line.

Likewise, there are medical emergencies on the train that we largely don't know about either.

https://www.straight.com/life/458271/skytrain-deaths-examined

Statistics from the B.C. Coroners Service spanning 1985 to May 2015 show 75 deaths on SkyTrain tracks, of which at least 10 were accidental. The Commercial-Broadway (11) and Main Street (10) stations had the most deaths. (None have been recorded on the Canada Line.) Through mid-February 2008, 32 victims were male; 25 of the dead were between 19 and 39 years of age. Nine perished in 1994, the deadliest year on record; in 2014, four died.

I'll also point out that 1994 is when the Surrey section of the Expo line opened. Correlation is not causation.

The other side of the argument is that PED (Platform Edge Doors) would make it safer, rather than trying to put more staff in the station or trains. Yes, we absolutely can retrofit PED into the Skytrain lines, it would be a one-time expense, and it would still do nothing to prevent suicides, they will just do it somewhere else. Once the MK I's are retired that could be revisited.

What is a guaranteed thing, is that Surrey Light Rail, if built at grade will kill or injure far more than 9 people per year, because not only will there be people trying to kill themselves, they won't need to get into the station to do it. They can just lay down in front of the train. Even sticking a fence along the ROW (to prevent jaywalkers) will not prevent that. Fencing it in will reduce pedestrian deaths from track intrusion due to jaywalking. Then you will have the vehicle collisions from people trying to turn left. If you think having half the 6pm news dedicated to Surrey shootings, just wait until the light rail system adds more to the "Surrey Sucks" narrative.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+ne...ilment+people+tracks/13371298/story.html

SkyTrain, which includes the Canada Line, is a fully automated driverless system with technology designed to stop the trains in the event of an intrusion onto the tracks, be it a person or an object such as a backpack. “The intrusion alarms are definitely a core part of the safety of our system,” TransLink spokesman Chris Bryan said on Monday.

Bryan said that SkyTrain, launched for Expo 86, has never had a collision involving two in-service trains, a record that is “unheard of ” in the industry for a long-running system.

That is the statement everyone is looking for. The computer system has NEVER killed anyone by causing trains to derail or drive into each other. Both Toronto TTC and NYC Subway have had disastrous derailments. List https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Subway_FAQ:_Accidents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Transit_Commission_incidents

So nobody should have any reason to pooh-pooh the automated system, as human drivers on both grade separated and at-grade systems have killed far more people over the same amount of time, and that doesn't include suicides on their systems.

Surrey City Concil is grasping at straws trying to justify a light rail system that worse than the existing bus system and has no net positive benefits over BRT or Skytrain. Any argument they've used to justify it can be counter-argued.

Cheaper? Nope, BRT is cheaper to build, Skytrain is cheaper to operate and maintain
Doesn't divide the community? Oh and building a train that snarls traffic and people can't cross doesn't?
Attracts development? Building ANYTHING attracts development.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I've generally heard that the ridership advantage for rail transit relative to buses is primarily based on the perceived permanence of the rail versus a bus route. Since a bus has less infrastructure it's by definition more prone to change than rail modes.

People for instance would more likely to based decisions to move to a location based on rail than on a prominent bus route, because the rail option is less able to be changed.

I think that may have been the subject of Jarrett Walker post a while ago, or something similar. I can't remember where I read it, but it makes sense. If there was a 20% chance the 99 BLine was going to get axed in the next decade, I wouldn't spend money trying to establish a routine based on that being a primary transport mode. If a subway or LRT got built, it's highly unlikely that they'll stop being utilized unless Goodyear, Firestone and GM suddenly decide to start buying transit systems again.

The counter to that argument that I'd think is applicable, is that if you have to worry about the mode permanence being the main attractant (rather than utility), then you're probably throwing money away on underutilized infrastructure regardless.

If the appearance of permanence is a factor, then works that are much cheaper than building an LRT could be implemented on a rapid bus network. Trolley wires for instance, more substantial shelters, queue jumpers, etc.

Jesus fuck. The whole "muh permanence" circlejerk again. Wouldn't painting a lane a certain colour or just putting "BUSES ONLY" every x meters have the same effect as tearing up the road and putting rails there?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

It’s not hard to find plenty of examples of why we shouldn’t ride LRT or Skytrain, or Drive or even ever leave our homes for that matter but it’s not advancing the conversation on how Surreys very likely to be LRT based system can best serve the public.

We've already had that conversation, remember? The best way for it to serve the public would be by tunneling it under Whalley and 104th, or at least putting up some fences and crossing gates... both of which would cost more money, which means the cheapskates in City Council are not interested in either one.

It's ironic how TPTB in Surrey want to save money, but don't want the BRT/SkyTrain option that would allow them to do so.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

At this point I’d say there probably at least 80% probability the LRT will be built so once again debating its efficacy is probably a hopeless endeavour.

So there's an 80% chance of getting the funding or Hepner getting reelected? And a 80% chance that the growing public outcry will fail to change anything?

It ain't over 'till the fat lady sings, is all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by M00dy

Is that true? I had heard that there are plenty of incidents of people jumping in front of the train. Pretty much most of the time the tracks are shut down for a "medical emergency".

Pretty sure that Alex is referring to accidents, rather than intentional suicides.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kisai

What is a guaranteed thing, is that Surrey Light Rail, if built at grade will kill or injure far more than 9 people per year, because not only will there be people trying to kill themselves, they won't need to get into the station to do it. They can just lay down in front of the train. Even sticking a fence along the ROW (to prevent jaywalkers) will not prevent that. Fencing it in will reduce pedestrian deaths from track intrusion due to jaywalking. Then you will have the vehicle collisions from people trying to turn left. If you think having half the 6pm news dedicated to Surrey shootings, just wait until the light rail system adds more to the "Surrey Sucks" narrative.

That should be on the news. Surrey LRT will have a higher death rate due to being run down the center of a busy road. Putting up a fence will limit the number of pedestrian deaths - but that dedicated row will also limit cars being able to share the lanes (something Surrey initially touted) and limit left hand turns to major intersections. All the smaller streets will become right in / right out. I really can't see drivers agreeing to that.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We've already had that conversation, remember? The best way for it to serve the public would be by tunneling it under Whalley and 104th, or at least putting up some fences and crossing gates... both of which would cost more money, which means the cheapskates in City Council are not interested in either one.

It's ironic how TPTB in Surrey want to save money, but don't want the BRT/SkyTrain option that would allow them to do so.



So there's an 80% chance of getting the funding or Hepner getting reelected? And a 80% chance that the growing public outcry will fail to change anything?

It ain't over 'till the fat lady sings, is all I'm saying.



Pretty sure that Alex is referring to accidents, rather than intentional suicides.

Not sure what happened with your quote tagging Migrant, but I didn't (and wouldn't) say that middle one. It was Reecemartin.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Not sure what happened with your quote tagging Migrant, but I didn't (and wouldn't) say that middle one. It was Reecemartin.

Crap - friendly fire, friendly fire!

Fixed.

[M00dy]

Great info by the way, thanks Kisai

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Crap - friendly fire, friendly fire!

Fixed.

lol thanks.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We've already had that conversation, remember? The best way for it to serve the public would be by tunneling it under Whalley and 104th, or at least putting up some fences and crossing gates... both of which would cost more money, which means the cheapskates in City Council are not interested in either one.

Well, the underground portion would make a nice shelter for the homeless junkies, eh?