New Downtown Calgary Arena

[SteveP]

I don't find the comparison specious at all, and the argument doesn't need to be stopped when people presenting an argument that isn't 100% accurate.

-First off. You do not have any ownership involvement in the library. No more than I do in an new arena.

-secondly, I don't believe the arena supporters care if the studies show economic benefits of the arena pay off or not. Show me studies of the library paying off as an economic benefit. That's not what this is about.

- the pay off of the library via CRL is a dubious connection at best. The library being there did not entice those developers to build in EV. Furthermore part of CRL is covered by buildings as far as Centre street, including the Bow.

-as far as all of it being covered by ticket surcharge? That's great in theory, but that's a slippery slope, as it brings us back to anything that people use being paid for via surcharge. I'd hate to see the ticket surcharge to pay off the library....I wonder how many would visit the library if they had to pay a couple hundred $$ each time. Nobody would at all, which would cause the surcharge to spiral even higher.

Originally Posted by bigtown_smallcity

I really think that the Central Library vs. New Arena is a completely specious comparison and I think we should stop it. Neverthelesss...

* Unlike some posters above, I do believe that I have a stake in a piece of public infrastructure. It belongs to me as much as anyone else in the city. This isn't true of a subsidized business.

* I actually don't mind governments subsidizing business -- directly or indirectly -- so long as the medium or long term benefit is there. Although there are edge cases, there is now a large body of research and analysis into the public subsidy of professional sport facilities, and it's pretty much unanimous in showing that these subsidies do not pay off.

* The library, though not a business, may actually pay off. Part (all?) of its cost is paid for by the CRL. The additional private investment in East Village that the library, the NMC, new parks, together with the rest of the upgrades and costs borne by the CMLC and the City will (and have) generate property taxes that will more than cover those investments.

* The library provides public services. It does not provide services (directly) to every individual in the city, but, regardless, services are provided. We can argue about how to value these services, that's ok. But public money for public services is pretty much how a functioning system should work, regardless of whether in every case, every taxpayer or citizen benefits. Hey, I don't ever benefit from the school system in Calgary, but I recognize that we need one, and am happy to pay for it. I don't begrudge the tax dollars that are spent paving streets I don't drive on.

* A new arena can absolutely provide public value (tangible or not) but probably not public services. It's construction is unlikely to have a large effect on spurring new property tax generating development in Vic park (given that the Stampede grounds and Saddledome are already there). A lot of the benefit is indirect and intangible -- a major venue that's would be a big part of Calgary's claim to being a large, dynamic city or whatever . To be honest, a lot of the descriptions of the public benefit are pretty hand-wavy.

Some people say that they would be happier with the extra few bucks a month of property taxes in order that they can have the opportunity to spend a few hundred dollars to check out a game or a show. If that's so, why not cover the entire city contribution with a ticket surcharge? Sure, it would be a bit more money (not as many contributors -- going to NHL hockey games or Garth Brooks concerts is solidly middle class or richer), but you could just directly pay for the facility.

And each time you did so, you could nod in satisfaction to yourself, thinking "this is mine, I paid for it".

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I don't believe the arena supporters care if the studies show economic benefits of the arena pay off or not. Show me studies of the library paying off

I think libraries may actually help people with literacy, and in particular, spelling.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/bill-smith-for-mayor-calgary-sun-ad-1.4308310

... the old advertising adage "any publicity is good publicity" is not accurate.

"Bad publicity damages the brand you're trying to sell," Middleton said Tuesday, adding the mistakes can impact Smith's credibility, especially among undecided voters.

"So what this would signal to me is, if this guy can't even supervise accurate communication in an ad, how good is he going to be running budgets and looking after legislation as mayor?"

Regarding arena economic benefits, it is all BS unless it brings new dollars into an economic zone. Not many people travel in to Calgary for a game, and as such, it is money used at the game or for other purposes within the city.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by SteveP

-secondly, I don't believe the arena supporters care if the studies show economic benefits of the arena pay off or not. Show me studies of the library paying off as an economic benefit. That's not what this is about.

CSEC has certainly tried to use "economic benefits" as why the city ought to pay up, so it's a relevant point to argue. Sure, some Flames fans may not cite that as a reason for their support, but I'm not arguing against them really.

Originally Posted by SteveP

- the pay off of the library via CRL is a dubious connection at best. The library being there did not entice those developers to build in EV. Furthermore part of CRL is covered by buildings as far as Centre street, including the Bow.

That particular area of EV was pretty nasty. While "a library" may not be the compelling reason why builders have built/will build in EV, something certainly had to be changed to help anchor the improvements in EV. The library isn't the only way that Calgary could have done it, but I don't think it's a "dubious connection".

(Though I don't defend CRLs in general, I think they're more sleight-of-hand magical accounting tricks rather than genuine value creation...)

[Calgarian]

Why are you comparing the Library to the Arena? that's a completely ridiculous comparison as the Library doesn't generate revenue and an arena does. Libraries by their nature are extremely subsidized, otherwise they wouldn't exist. An arena can stand independent of government money, several buildings in several leagues all around the continent are testament to that.

[240glt]

Good god Gary Bettman is a slimy bastard. Not playing politics my arse. The NHL is trying to influence the results of a municipal election while insisting they're not playing politics. How much sleazier can you get. I hope Calgarians are smart enough to not fall for these threats and scare tactics

[McBoo]

LOL, Gary Putin, err Bettman.

Seriously, don't think disingenuous attempts by a New York lawyer to influence a Canadian civic election are doing his, or the Flames cause any good.

Likely quite the opposite.

Anyway, as an outsider myself, not taking a pro or con position, but if I'm Murray Edwards and Nenshi is re-elected, Ken King is gonzo ...

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by McBoo

LOL, Gary Putin, err Bettman.

Seriously, don't think disingenuous attempts by a New York lawyer to influence a Canadian civic election are doing his, or the Flames cause any good.

Likely quite the opposite.

One challenge that some may not fully appreciate is the NHL, NHL Owners, and their key Staff having the inside route to leading Canadian media networks. Ken King, as an example, was publisher of both the Sun and the Herald. The ownership group is well acquainted with the Shaw family who control the Global network. Now while there are arms length editorial committees, the connections actually extend to those also. Ken can call up certain people and plant seeds, and guess what, the things happen.

One who is aware of the full extent of the networks would rightfully commend these folks for running such a complex and comprehensive oligopoly for as long as they have!

Originally Posted by McBoo

Anyway, as an outsider myself, not taking a pro or con position, but if I'm Murray Edwards and Nenshi is re-elected, Ken King is gonzo ...

I'd agree with that. If he doesn't, the ulcer within public opinion is just going to fester as they attempt to get concessions beyond the current city offer.

I actually believe the ownership group is completely aware of this, and that is why they have not directly commented in the public (to my knowledge). That being said, we all know that Ken is simply staff. They pay him to stand up and sit down, though currently he is personally a pinch desperate.

[suburbia]

In a battle they started, Bettman and Flames are getting clobbered
http://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/b...bettman-and-flames-are-getting-clobbered

A campaign joke: What’s the difference between a Russian hacker and NHL commissioner Gary Bettman?

None. They both sit on their butts and try to influence foreign elections.

The Russians seem pretty good at this. Bettman, however, is awful. His attack on Mayor Naheed Nenshi may have tipped the civic campaign toward the incumbent mayor.

<>

Calgary Sports and Entertainment needs to pause for a public-relations reset here. They aren’t getting any closer to an arena and they’re probably helping Nenshi win a third term.

As for Bettman, he could move to Canada and pay some taxes. Otherwise, he should butt out of our election.

Great poignant article.

The mention about Harley Hotchkiss brought back wonderful memories of a true class act.

And through it all, the owners themselves remain completely silent.

Contrast that with the late co-owner Harley Hotchkiss, who called a news conference at the Saddledome in 1999 to say attendance was so poor that the team would have to leave if fans didn’t snap up season tickets.

Hotchkiss was truly stricken by the thought. He rolled out all the facts. He pleaded, but with dignity. Calgarians saw his sincerity and started buying tickets overnight.

It’s hard to imagine a similar scene today.

[suburbia]

Globe editorial: Gary Bettman drops gloves, enters Calgary election
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion...32/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Residents of Calgary will elect their mayor and city councillors in two weeks' time, and now Gary Bettman, the commissioner of the National Hockey League, has inexcusably insinuated himself into the campaign.

Doing so represents an appalling lack of judgment from someone who absolutely knows better.

<>

Perhaps Mr. Bettman has acquired Canadian citizenship and a Calgary address and is entitled to vote in the election.

Or maybe he's just obsessed with Calgary politics. But if that were true he'd have a better grasp of the local attitude toward blackmail.

[suburbia]

What The NHL Is Doing In Calgary Is Pretty Gross
https://deadspin.com/what-the-nhl-is-doing-in-calgary-is-pretty-gross-1818879619

A massive, multinational company is inserting itself into Calgary’s mayoral election, attacking an incumbent whose policies are preventing said company from obtaining hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer handouts, and overtly threatening citizens that unless they vote the way the company wants, they’ll leave town.

Oh, and about all of this, Gary Bettman has the gall to say, “I don’t weigh into politics.”

That description above is, of course, the fundamental conflict at the heart of the entire stadium financing scam, where teams and leagues demand public money for their private business while functionally extorting taxpayers and elected officials with the threat of relocation. But rarely has it been so blatant as this.

[patm]

Beak of the century?

"One of the reasons Calgary is in this situation right now is because so many other cities have so weakly capitulated when Bettman and their billionaire buddies have made the exact same threats," said National Post columnist Jen Gerson.

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success that they needed to sign a scam of a deal to give a sweetheart arena over to (Oilers owner) Darryl Katz. And now all of a sudden the expectation is that Calgary is going to fall in line?"

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-political-panel-flames-nhl-bettman-arena-1.4313740?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by patm

Beak of the century?

"One of the reasons Calgary is in this situation right now is because so many other cities have so weakly capitulated when Bettman and their billionaire buddies have made the exact same threats," said National Post columnist Jen Gerson.

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success that they needed to sign a scam of a deal to give a sweetheart arena over to (Oilers owner) Darryl Katz. And now all of a sudden the expectation is that Calgary is going to fall in line?"

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-political-panel-flames-nhl-bettman-arena-1.4313740?

What's more amusing is that Nenshi most likely doesn't have to utter another word about this whole affair during this election - the media are doing a damn fine job for him and better yet, his opponents now have to tread very carefully with what they say. How will Chabot come out in support of an arena deal that puts out more tax payer monies than what the CoC has currently proposed and sell it as a better deal to voters? Quite a conundrum indeed.

Nenshi's campaign people couldn't have asked for a better scenario than what is now developing - they could probably almost go on cruise control right now and let the other contenders muck it out for second/third/whatever place.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by speedog

What's more amusing is that Nenshi most likely doesn't have to utter another word about this whole affair during this election - the media are doing a damn fine job for him and better yet, his opponents now have to tread very carefully with what they say. How will Chabot come out in support of an arena deal that puts out more tax payer monies than what the CoC has currently proposed and sell it as a better deal to voters? Quite a conundrum indeed.

Nenshi's campaign people couldn't have asked for a better scenario than what is now developing - they could probably almost go on cruise control right now and let the other contenders muck it out for second/third/whatever place.

I don't know about that. Nenshi claiming that he told Bettman that if the Flames leave that it wouldn't destroy Calgary might not go over well with a significant percentage of the population. If the Flames left Calgary it would be a huge psychological blow to the city. We're not Los Angeles where there's so much going on entertainment wise that a pro sports team leaving doesn't hurt it's image. People keep claiming the Flames will never leave Calgary but people also claimed that the U.S. would always be dependent on us for oil. Things can change over night and it's naive to think that there aren't markets that the Flames couldn't move to.

The city needs to be smart in how they negotiate a new arena deal. Nenshi's attitude is not helping matters and as long as he's involved I don't a deal can be reached. He seems to be more concerned with "defeating" the Flames ownership and Bettman than he is with getting us a new arena. I also question if he even wants the city to get a new arena and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[milomilo]

On the other hand, there are many of us (probably more than you think, just less vocal) who couldn't care less if the Flames leave. That doesn't necessarily mean we don't want an arena built but does make the NHL/CSEC's threats to leave ineffective on us and the mayor's handling of the situation look excellent.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I don't know about that. Nenshi claiming that he told Bettman that if the Flames leave that it wouldn't destroy Calgary might not go over well with a significant percentage of the population. If the Flames left Calgary it would be a huge psychological blow to the city. We're not Los Angeles where there's so much going on entertainment wise that a pro sports team leaving doesn't hurt it's image. People keep claiming the Flames will never leave Calgary but people also claimed that the U.S. would always be dependent on us for oil. Things can change over night and it's naive to think that there aren't markets that the Flames couldn't move to.

The city needs to be smart in how they negotiate a new arena deal. Nenshi's attitude is not helping matters and as long as he's involved I don't a deal can be reached. He seems to be more concerned with "defeating" the Flames ownership and Bettman than he is with getting us a new arena. I also question if he even wants the city to get a new arena and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

If Nenshi had told the Flames to pound sand initially, I'd agree with you.

The city offered a fair deal IMO. They put up some money, but didn't completely give into ownership. The Flames' reaction to this decent offer was out of proportion.

From a PR point of view, Nenshi looked better. The Flames came off poorly. This strengthens Nenshi's hand and weakens theirs, especially since he's in an election campaign.

Had the Flames played it smart, they would have worked with Nenshi's strongest opponent quietly. That way, had the opponent won, they'd have the inside track on negotiations, but wouldn't have 'poisoned the well' had Nenshi been re-elected. Call it hedging their bet.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by wave46

If Nenshi had told the Flames to pound sand initially, I'd agree with you.

The city offered a fair deal IMO. They put up some money, but didn't completely give into ownership. The Flames' reaction to this decent offer was out of proportion.

From a PR point of view, Nenshi looked better. The Flames came off poorly. This strengthens Nenshi's hand and weakens theirs, especially since he's in an election campaign.

Had the Flames played it smart, they would have worked with Nenshi's strongest opponent quietly. That way, had the opponent won, they'd have the inside track on negotiations, but wouldn't have 'poisoned the well' had Nenshi been re-elected. Call it hedging their bet.

Agree fully. While I may not be a fan of Nenshi's handling of this, the Flames have made mistakes too.

I guess we'll see what happens after this election. Latest poll shows Smith leading. I wonder if he's already been working with the Flames?

[s211]

Originally Posted by patm

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success

<snip>

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."

Wow, what's the female equivalent of a douche, a douchette? Is it any wonder that the off-the-charts superiority of some people hit such a nerve in Edmonton?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by wave46

If Nenshi had told the Flames to pound sand initially, I'd agree with you.

The city offered a fair deal IMO. They put up some money, but didn't completely give into ownership. The Flames' reaction to this decent offer was out of proportion.

From a PR point of view, Nenshi looked better. The Flames came off poorly. This strengthens Nenshi's hand and weakens theirs, especially since he's in an election campaign.

Had the Flames played it smart, they would have worked with Nenshi's strongest opponent quietly. That way, had the opponent won, they'd have the inside track on negotiations, but wouldn't have 'poisoned the well' had Nenshi been re-elected. Call it hedging their bet.

Nenshi's initial attitude when the Flames first announced CalgaryNEXT was basically very negative and he did more or less tell them to go pound sand if they were expecting any city funding. If you go back to the very start of this it's very hard to defend how Nenshi reacted. It would have been better if he had just said to them something like "this looks interesting, but we need a lot more details."

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Agree fully. While I may not be a fan of Nenshi's handling of this, the Flames have made mistakes too.

I guess we'll see what happens after this election. Latest poll shows Smith leading. I wonder if he's already been working with the Flames?

I wouldn't be surprised if other people have been working with the Flames behind the scenes for awhile and that's why they said they don't want to talk to the city anymore.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Nenshi's initial attitude when the Flames first announced CalgaryNEXT was basically very negative and he did more or less tell them to go pound sand if they were expecting any city funding. If you go back to the very start of this it's very hard to defend how Nenshi reacted. It would have been better if he had just said to them something like "this looks interesting, but we need a lot more details."

... which was followed by the city administration actually investigating the details, such as what else would need to spent to make west village work. In turn, CSEC basically said, "Screw those details!". Or more literally, pretty sure King said something to the effect of, "Cleaning up the creosote isn't a cost, it's an opportunity!"

And then city administration put quite a bit of work into a Victoria Park concept.

I'm not going to make a full-throated defence of Nenshi or the city's every words and actions (because they don't deserve that), but neither do they deserve accusations of blowing off CSEC.

Nenshi has repeatedly stated he is welcome to ideas that include "public money for public benefit". He has practically begged CSEC to follow through. And to me, CSEC is asking for the money, so they need to back it up.

If you feel city council ought to be more generous, that's cool, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm happy to have a council that is not reflexively blowing away $500 million. That's 20 Peace Bridges. Or 1,000 Bowfort Towers.