PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

If they did the primary campus at SY / secondary campus at NY, we would get the BSL extension FOR SURE. Maybe even a PATCO connection to it from the other side of the river.

I'm pretty sure that back when the latest sports stadiums were built that it was stated that the WW bridge wasn't designed to have trains added to it, unless traffic lanes were given up. How about a tunnel! Then extend PATCO to the airport.
In Seattle Amazon seems to very much like to group their employees in one area as much as possible and their 'specs' for HQ2 indicate that is a practice they want to continue. So I don't think a HQ2 being split between two locations is going to fly.
Is there some problem with the 'official' City proposal identifying more then one site that Amazon should consider? I've forgotten if their 'specs' say anything about that.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Justin7

When you lived in Boston, didn't you feel like you could get pretty much anywhere you needed to go on the T? Do you feel the same way in Philadelphia? That's all I meant. We're largely in agreement so let's leave it at that.

A lot of this forum is very defensive. I think Philadelphia is a great city or I wouldn't be here posting here. I just think that when it comes to a competition for Amazon it would be wise to keep the focus on the city's comparative strengths.

To you first question. Yes. That's why I rated it as superior to philly and dc.

However I was totally without a car, before the rise of uber, there were occasions we wanted to leave the inner metro to go to the beach or some such and the Regional Rail was pretty bad. Unless things have changed dramatically in less than a decade, regional rail was incredibly infrequent, and the cars were really old and they always broke down or delayed. I remember one time we went to Manchester by the sea to go to the beach. We missed an early evening train to get back to Boston. New to Boston and used to Philly I assumed at worst we'd wait an hour or so. The next train wasn't until the following morning at like 6AM!

There are things that philly does better than boston. Boston does more things better and more important things better while serving more people. But Philly's system is definitely in Boston and DC's league. I spoke up not because I was being defensive but because I believe you are wrong. New York? Chicago? Ok. But Boston and DC do not have FAR superior systems than we do. We shouldn't concede that in this Amazon competition at all. This city's transit system is full of flaws but the bar is pretty low in America and our system is a huge comparative strength when compared to virtually the entire country.

[summersm343]

Market East begins its next phase…

Both the Fashion District and the Lit Brothers project also plan to follow East Market into the new “mixed use” phase of Market Street. Plans for a residential tower atop the Lit Brothers building have been announced, and Coradino told the audience that he hoped to see the three towers that the Gallery was designed to support become reality as residential structures. “We’re adding the structures needed to support those towers at some cost,” he said.

Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/property/2017/0...-market-street-east/#3o0LHEGtWGHUqKeX.99

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Market East begins its next phase…



Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/property/2017/0...-market-street-east/#3o0LHEGtWGHUqKeX.99

There was an old thread about this tower, wasn't there? Time to revive it I guess...

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Market East begins its next phase…



Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/property/2017/0...-market-street-east/#3o0LHEGtWGHUqKeX.99

So, today's announcements included the fact that towers atop the Fashion District will occur, the Lit Bros tower may actually happen after years of speculation, and that National Development is relocating to the city?! What a damn good day for Market East, as well as the city!

I really hope that everything will work out between the two projects, and I have confidence that it will. If the Market East corridor can become a happening place again, then I could imagine that things will move faster with PREIT's assemblage of land along the 1000 block of Market. With 1300 Market thrown in the mix, the stretch between City Hall and Independence Mall will no longer look dreary!

[Urbanthusiat]

A great day for Market East indeed. That area has so much potential. It's really at the convergence of the city's office/government, retail, and hospitality sectors, with important institutions like City Hall, Jefferson University, the Inquirer, and the constitution center nearby... all over suburban rail, MFL, PATCO, trolley line, and intercity bus access. Philly is blessed with wonderful transit infrastructure, and Market East in particular. Getting people here won't be a problem, you just need to give them a reason to go. Now if only we could get the sixers to build an arena at 8th and Market!

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by 1487

not really. Just saying Boston is more compact so by default a greater % of the city is reachable by their subway system. It definitely reaches in more directions than the one here- but that isn't saying much.

Not really. Philly and Boston have similar-size urban areas (~1,770 sq mi vs. ~1,800 sq mi) and three-deckers yield a similar pop density as rowhomes.

It's fair to say, though, that Boston and Philly each have their transportation advantages and disadvantages. Boston still doesn't have that North-South Rail Link they've been wanting since like forever, for example.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

So, today's announcements included the fact that towers atop the Fashion District will occur, the Lit Bros tower may actually happen after years of speculation, and that National Development is relocating to the city?! What a damn good day for Market East, as well as the city!

I really hope that everything will work out between the two projects, and I have confidence that it will. If the Market East corridor can become a happening place again, then I could imagine that things will move faster with PREIT's assemblage of land along the 1000 block of Market. With 1300 Market thrown in the mix, the stretch between City Hall and Independence Mall will no longer look dreary!

These are all tremendously positive steps, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I asked Sandy Smith, the author of the article on Lit, and he said that he was not referring to anything more recent than Brickstone's releasing of renderings about three years ago for an apartment tower next to the Lits Building. And the Fashion District towers are also aspirational at this point. Coradino is outfitting the building to ready them for towers, but nothing is in play yet. I don't doubt we'll see some or all of these towers IF absorption and occupancy of the towers further West and closer to City Hall goes as plan. It's just a question of when. Also, Brandywine bought the parking garage at 6th & Market a couple years back and got it rezoned. It has stated that it may build a tower there when the time is right. That will hopefully happen eventually too.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by allovertown

To you first question. Yes. That's why I rated it as superior to philly and dc.

However I was totally without a car, before the rise of uber, there were occasions we wanted to leave the inner metro to go to the beach or some such and the Regional Rail was pretty bad. Unless things have changed dramatically in less than a decade, regional rail was incredibly infrequent, and the cars were really old and they always broke down or delayed. I remember one time we went to Manchester by the sea to go to the beach. We missed an early evening train to get back to Boston. New to Boston and used to Philly I assumed at worst we'd wait an hour or so. The next train wasn't until the following morning at like 6AM!

There are things that philly does better than boston. Boston does more things better and more important things better while serving more people. But Philly's system is definitely in Boston and DC's league. I spoke up not because I was being defensive but because I believe you are wrong. New York? Chicago? Ok. But Boston and DC do not have FAR superior systems than we do. We shouldn't concede that in this Amazon competition at all. This city's transit system is full of flaws but the bar is pretty low in America and our system is a huge comparative strength when compared to virtually the entire country.

I'm not going to get into a argument over whether something is "better" vs "much better" in comparison to something else.

For the record though, I wasn't referring to you with comment on defensiveness. I should have been clearer about that.

[1487]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

These are all tremendously positive steps, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I asked Sandy Smith, the author of the article on Lit, and he said that he was not referring to anything more recent than Brickstone's releasing of renderings about three years ago for an apartment tower next to the Lits Building. And the Fashion District towers are also aspirational at this point. Coradino is outfitting the building to ready them for towers, but nothing is in play yet. I don't doubt we'll see some or all of these towers IF absorption and occupancy of the towers further West and closer to City Hall goes as plan. It's just a question of when. Also, Brandywine bought the parking garage at 6th & Market a couple years back and got it rezoned. It has stated that it may build a tower there when the time is right. That will hopefully happen eventually too.

I was thinking the same thing with regards to the Lit tower- they were just talking about old news- a dead project.

Based on the zoning permit info I saw I do think the PREIT plans are actually advancing however. They need to build up to accommodate 140 apts for sure.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 1487

I was thinking the same thing with regards to the Lit tower- they were just talking about old news- a dead project.

Based on the zoning permit info I saw I do think the PREIT plans are actually advancing however. They need to build up to accommodate 140 apts for sure.

That would be great if true! That will hopefully spur some new upmarket retail on the other side of 1000 block of Market.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

A great day for Market East indeed. That area has so much potential. It's really at the convergence of the city's office/government, retail, and hospitality sectors, with important institutions like City Hall, Jefferson University, the Inquirer, and the constitution center nearby... all over suburban rail, MFL, PATCO, trolley line, and intercity bus access. Philly is blessed with wonderful transit infrastructure, and Market East in particular. Getting people here won't be a problem, you just need to give them a reason to go. Now if only we could get the sixers to build an arena at 8th and Market!

8th and Market is the hole for sure. Plans for the Gallery and East Market - which include lots of retail, a grocery, restaurants, and even a long awaited movie theater are great news but of course that also means those concepts are no longer viable options for that lot. I really hope for office or some mixed use - hotel, office, and residential towers with at least one building exceeding 500 feet. What I fear is a short stubby apartment building with a garage taking over half the site (like 1919).

Office is the real linchpin to get height and ensure that this part of town remains mixed use. Right now, there a huge chunk of open space at the Aramark Tower and if that goes residential, that would be a death knell for maintaining and marketing this area as a legitimate location for offices. Which would be real shame b/c the transit and other nearby amenities should be a really strong draw.

[hammersklavier]

The thing that's always confused me is why Goldenburg junked Market8 altogether when they failed to get the casino license. It had big open podium floorplates and a tower on top -- more or less the same as the East Market project. Especially now that that and the Gallery redevelopment are humming along, you'd think they could easily retool it for retail and a hotel/resi flex (depending on whether they can find an operator of course) in the tower.

[1487]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

The thing that's always confused me is why Goldenburg junked Market8 altogether when they failed to get the casino license. It had big open podium floorplates and a tower on top -- more or less the same as the East Market project. Especially now that that and the Gallery redevelopment are humming along, you'd think they could easily retool it for retail and a hotel/resi flex (depending on whether they can find an operator of course) in the tower.

casino revenue could subsidize the other parts of the project.

[1487]

Originally Posted by McBane

8th and Market is the hole for sure. Plans for the Gallery and East Market - which include lots of retail, a grocery, restaurants, and even a long awaited movie theater are great news but of course that also means those concepts are no longer viable options for that lot. I really hope for office or some mixed use - hotel, office, and residential towers with at least one building exceeding 500 feet. What I fear is a short stubby apartment building with a garage taking over half the site (like 1919).

Office is the real linchpin to get height and ensure that this part of town remains mixed use. Right now, there a huge chunk of open space at the Aramark Tower and if that goes residential, that would be a death knell for maintaining and marketing this area as a legitimate location for offices. Which would be real shame b/c the transit and other nearby amenities should be a really strong draw.

I see no way 1100 market goes residential.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by 1487

casino revenue could subsidize the other parts of the project.

The point being, NREA is making a similar project happen WITHOUT casino revenue, in case you haven't noticed.

Originally Posted by 1487

I see no way 1100 market goes residential.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

That said, the Water Department has a lot of office space in that building as well.

[1487]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

The point being, NREA is making a similar project happen WITHOUT casino revenue, in case you haven't noticed.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

That said, the Water Department has a lot of office space in that building as well.

8th and market is even larger than the front half of the Girard estate project and the NREA project includes reuse of three existing buildings over time. I'm not saying some sort of similar project couldn't work, I'm saying that whatever they proposed before was dependent on the casino being a generator of funds that could make the rest palatable. So I see know way they could just remove the casino and then move forward. Remember, Blatstein had same issue with the Inky HQ building. Once he lost a chance at license the building sat vacant with no real profitable use until the city bailed him out.

I say Aramark isn't good for residential because a) it sitll has huge office component b)an office building lacks terraces and other design features that high end apt buildings typically have c) the existing tenants likely would be totally against partial conversion to residential units and C) once Aramark leaves they will have one of the largest blocks of contiguous space on the market in a market where there aren't many such blocks for large tenants. The liberty place condo conversion has been a modest success at best and it's one of the few (if not only) such projects of its kind in Philly where high end office was converted in a building that retains office functions.

[Boku]

Is it me or does none of this make sense?

Yo, Philly! We crunched the numbers and we’re not Amazon’s prime location

[Late1]

Originally Posted by Boku

Is it me or does none of this make sense?

Yo, Philly! We crunched the numbers and we’re not Amazon’s prime location

It's way beyond flawed.

Look at their ranking for Philly in terms of traffic/transit: the initial methodology completely ignores transit, and the second supposedly factors it but ignores the fact that 30 mins spent riding a train makes for a very different commute than 30 mins stuck in traffic.

We know good transit is important to Amazon. Regardless of who ultimately wins, I think Amazon is smart enough to have Schuylkill Yards on their short list.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Late1

It's way beyond flawed.

Look at their ranking for Philly in terms of traffic/transit: the initial methodology completely ignores transit, and the second supposedly factors it but ignores the fact that 30 mins spent riding a train makes for a very different commute than 30 mins stuck in traffic.

We know good transit is important to Amazon. Regardless of who ultimately wins, I think Amazon is smart enough to have Schuylkill Yards on their short list.

It's beyond stupid. The fact that car driving = "transit" to this schmohawk is almost an immediate DQ.

According to this metric: Los Angeles - a city not really even trying for the bid for a variety of reasons, mostly b/c of the logical fact that Amazon will probably want an East Coast foot print;

Then, Phoenix - a city with 1 bad school (sorry ASU) and almost ZERO public transit - also located in both the PST and MWT zones which, again, would almost immediately disqualify it;

And, finally, Tampa - I mean, do I even need to explain - are the top qualifiers?

This is like when ESPN developed the QBR stat - significant time and investment to develop a stat for comparative purposes - and then when the numbers spit out you have guys like Matt Schaub finishing above Tom Brady. If that's the case then it's time to rethink your methodology. There's just a common sense test - that this thing fails.