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  #6761  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 2:49 PM
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hollywoodcory hollywoodcory is offline
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AC has made some changes for FRA for the month of October. From 01OCT17 to 17OCT17 it's a B77L instead of B789 and then upgrades to B77W to 28OCT17.
     
     
  #6762  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2017, 5:47 PM
msmariner msmariner is offline
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I'm reading on other social media sights that today's British Airways flight is being operated by a Boeing 747. A rare passenger bird in these parts. Pretty exciting though
     
     
  #6763  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 11:35 PM
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I had an excess of time to kill before a flight at YYC a few days ago – and it was one of only a handful of domestic flights I’ve taken out of there since the new ITB opened last fall.

I thought I'd take advantage of the time to wander all of concourses A, B and C and check out the domestic side of things.

My thoughts and observations … as I wandered like Tom Hanks from ‘The Terminal’:

Renovations at A gates 21-24:
Wow! This space is beautiful ... a great upgrade! These are the old domestic/transborder swing gates in the connector between the A and B concourses. They used to be utterly awful and dreary. Now, they're bright and airy (even with construction happening). And the new carpet is beautiful. A really cool hexagon carpet tile that's a massive improvement over the awful "1980s casino" carpet everywhere else in the domestic terminal.

Ignore the ugly construction hoarding here, but check out the new carpet:



Concourse B, now that U.S. segregation is out:
No updates, other than the segregating wall down the middle (underneath the old customs tunnel) is now removed. But what a difference! That concourse used to be an awful experience, largely because it felt like being in a claustrophobic Habitrail hamster cage. Losing that wall makes a big difference. It still looks dated, but the openness makes a big difference. (Utilization while I was there was pretty high – a lot of AC Express flights)

The C-70s departure experience.
From what I've heard and read, I thought the space there would be awful. It's not. In fact, it's kind of nice (albeit a bit drab and grey). The layout is a bit confusing and could overwhelm some passengers, with the golfcart system terminus and all of the arriving and departing tunnels, but - overall - it's a nice space.

Access to D and E concourse connections
Given YYC's penchant to over-communicate in their interior signage (more below, in my rant on wayfinding!) I was surprised at how small, subtle and almost hidden the access to the D and E concourses is here. I'd have expected it to be a bit grander and more obviously highlighted?

Wayfinding signage:
A lot of changes to wayfinding signs in the domestic terminal so nice my last visit. Some good. Some pretty bad. And surprisingly a lot of inconsistency in signage (which itself is pretty bad in wayfinding).

Across the board, the wayfinding in YYC just strikes me as being ‘too much’ and over-complicated. It always has. Too much info on signs. Too much reliance on full sentences, and too little reliance on simple, universal iconography.

In so many large hubs around the world, wayfinding is beautiful in it’s utter simplicity. Here, the team seems to think that more is better. The paradox in wayfinding is always that signs with less info are easier to digest and follow than signs with more.

My first issue:

When did the word “Security” get plastered all over the domestic terminal? Oddly, signs in the check-in areas across all of A/B/C no longer direct you to Gates (or Portes).

Instead, they've all been changed to direct people to "Security". Why??





Sure, most people will probably get that, since ‘going through security’ has become vernacular for pre-board screening. But it's a really weird change ... and shows a pretty amateur understanding of wayfinding.
  • Problem 1: There's a global standard for wayfinding in airports. It's the word “Gates”. Not "Security". No airport on the planet (at least none that I've seen) directs people to "Security". The norm is "Gates", even at airports where English isn't the first language on signage. In wayfinding, the rules say to stick to the norms because it’s what your users already understand and expect. Especially when there are global, well-understood standards at use in pretty much every other airport!
  • Problem 2: “Security” means lots of different things in airports. Pre-board screening is only one of them. Police are also security. So are Commissionaires. (Ever seen the “sala de body scan” in the TV show “Airport Security”? Yep, that’s “Security” too!). Multiple meanings for a word? Don’t use it on wayfinding signage.
  • Problem 3: Ultimate destination vs. interim points. One of the cardinal rules of wayfinding is that user understanding increases when you use the ultimate destination (i.e. ‘Gates’) on signage rather than an interim stop (‘Pre-board screening’, or ‘security’, or whatever). That’s why the signs on northbound Deerfoot say “to Edmonton” rather than “to Innisfail”)

(Not familiar with the TV show 'Airport Security'? Check it out... http://www.natgeotv.com/za/shows/natgeo/airport-security-colombia and you'll see why "Security" is not a one-size-fits-all word in international airports!)

After scratching my head over that change to their wayfinding, I (admittedly)became a bit obsessed with their signage...


Signage inside the A concourse is generally well done. And sometimes brilliantly simple. (Why "brilliant"? In wayfinding, less is always more. Because 'more' almost always confuses)

One of the best signs I saw ... thanks to its clarity and simplicity:



Signage in B? Half-assed and much seems inconsistent with the rest of the terminal. (There’s one sign for passengers coming off of planes that directs them to concourses A and C only, with absolutely no mention of D or E. Whaaaa?)

Or this one!? Yep, I'm sure everyone who's a skyscraper.com regular (or a frequent flier, or an airport employee) will easily understand sign.

But what about the non-Calgarian, very infrequent flier, senior citizen vacationer who's trying to find their way? Yikes.



Hmmm. So if gates "A 1-24" are to the left, shouldn't it say that "C 50-73" are to the right? (To the unknowing, this sign actually says that A 1-24 are left, and A 50-73 are right.)

And the bottom row, in blue? That's the wayfinding equivalent of a big, fat run-on sentence, and just as confusing. And without any spacing on this line, would the unknowing traveler really be ably to quickly tell what's left versus right?

Let's see: "E" squished next to "American flag" squished next to "Air Canada logo" squished next to "luggage icon". With no spacing, and not much thought about making it easy to understand.

Yes, I get what they're trying to convey. And, no, it's not catastrophically bad. But it's not going to be easily understood by the noobs who actually need this info. They can and should do better than this amateur stuff.

Now on to Concourse C. Lots of “TMI” signs here, and some weird errors.

Coming in at C and connecting to anther flight? On the signs, the visual treatment for A and B concourses is, oddly, totally different than for D and E concourses. For some reason, the signs show D and E under a "Connections" title. But not A and B. Hmmm. That's odd. If I'm arriving at C and connecting to a flight leaving from B, aren't I still connecting? (When the signs point people to the other 4 concourses, all 4 of those concourses should be treated in the exact same way on those signs. The current system isn't unintelligible, but rather jumbly and strange!)

Entering at ‘C preboard screening’, and heading to either A or B? Oops, better back up! After you enter Concourse C through CATSA (and after crossing the tram crosswalk) you'll see a big sign guiding you to turn right to get to the A and B concourses. The problem: the sign comes about 15 or 20 feet after the hallway to A and B. About as effective as putting a highway exit sign after you've already passed the exit. Downright dumb placement.

Directions to "Lounges" … huh?? MLL? Aspire? Priority Pass??

Nope, we actually meant, uhh ...




In both A and C, these big overhead signs guide passengers to a "lounge". But they don't mean "airport lounges" or even plain ol' departure lounge seating. Instead, they apparently try to point people to "bars".

Sure. At one point they kinda meant something similar. But, come on, what does the word "lounge" mean to most people today, especially air travelers, particularly frequent fliers, and especially people in airports?? To most people in an airport, it absolutely does not mean "bar"!

Heck, I can't think of the last time I heard anyone use the word lounge in place of bar -- in any context. ("Hey, guys! Want to hit a lounge to watch the game?" said no-one ever.) And it's a big ditto for "salon", which they've used as the French translation for bar. ‘Salon’ really does not mean 'bar' in French either. In fact, it’s an even bigger leap in French.

C'mon guys. In an airport, users will understand the word 'lounge' to mean, we'll, a 'lounge'. Like Aspire, or Chinook, or Maple Leaf. Not a Chili's.

And that's another bit of weirdness. Those silly 'lounge' signs are really only pointing towards restaurants (that happen to serve alcohol). They're not even really 'lounges' like in the 1970s 'bar' sense of the word. You're just as likely to see a family eating breakfast at the C concourse Chilis 'lounge' as you are to see some guys downing a pint.

Last edited by Tobuz; Sep 18, 2017 at 3:52 AM.
     
     
  #6764  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2017, 12:01 AM
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Thanks for the post, Tobuz! As a signage nerd, I really appreciate the look through the terminal like that.

Signage was never YYC's strong suit, though. That new overhead sign at the end of the Arrivals/Departures road with directions back to the Terminal or to Barlow Trail used to be completely blue, even though the design showed only the Terminal panel to be blue. The Barlow Trail sign is a regular guide sign and should be green! Somehow that was left that way for quite some time with no one noticing or caring at the inconsistency.

Now you also have the signs on Airport Trail saying "AIRPORT YYC" on them, which is some kind of frankensteining of a few different airport signage standards. It's not a very elegant solution to better airport wayfinding.

Thanks to some pretty awful delays in ORD recently, I had almost 6 hours to kill in that airport. I ended up walking all of Terminal 1, 2 and 3, which took about 2 hours. I came to the conclusion that if you were in a rush, you were likely to take a wrong turn somewhere in there due to the amount of concourses they have to list on each sign. It's just a lot to take in, like you mentioned. At one point I saw a sign for Concourse C but it was all but impossible to see the hall it wanted you to take, especially since it's immediately down some stairs to go under the taxiways. If you were racing down Concourse B which seemed to always be packed with people, you'd likely run right past it.

I gotta think if you end up getting used to somewhere like ORD though, YYC would be a piece of cake, haha.
     
     
  #6765  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 5:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post
Directions to "Lounges" … huh?? MLL? Aspire? Priority Pass??

Nope, we actually meant, uhh ...




In both A and C, these big overhead signs guide passengers to a "lounge". But they don't mean "airport lounges" or even plain ol' departure lounge seating. Instead, they apparently try to point people to "bars".

Sure. At one point they kinda meant something similar. But, come on, what does the word "lounge" mean to most people today, especially air travelers, particularly frequent fliers, and especially people in airports?? To most people in an airport, it absolutely does not mean "bar"!

Heck, I can't think of the last time I heard anyone use the word lounge in place of bar -- in any context. ("Hey, guys! Want to hit a lounge to watch the game?" said no-one ever.) And it's a big ditto for "salon", which they've used as the French translation for bar. ‘Salon’ really does not mean 'bar' in French either. In fact, it’s an even bigger leap in French.

C'mon guys. In an airport, users will understand the word 'lounge' to mean, we'll, a 'lounge'. Like Aspire, or Chinook, or Maple Leaf. Not a Chili's.

And that's another bit of weirdness. Those silly 'lounge' signs are really only pointing towards restaurants (that happen to serve alcohol). They're not even really 'lounges' like in the 1970s 'bar' sense of the word. You're just as likely to see a family eating breakfast at the C concourse Chilis 'lounge' as you are to see some guys downing a pint.
Weird. I can't think of any airport that would do this. So what does the Calgary airport call Lounges on its signage?

I googled terminal maps. They have not removed/updated the terminal maps on their website that the google or bing search engine points to. It still shows the old map. They really need to work on removing them from their website.

Source: www.yyc.com
     
     
  #6766  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 6:06 AM
Tobuz Tobuz is offline
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
I googled terminal maps. They have not removed/updated the terminal maps on their website that the google or bing search engine points to. It still shows the old map. They really need to work on removing them from their website
Not sure how you found that old map! When I go to YYC.com, the "Terminal Maps" link from their home page is definitely the updated map ... an interactive map of the full terminal including D and E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casper View Post
Weird. I can't think of any airport that would do this. So what does the Calgary airport call Lounges on its signage?
Good question. I saw the MLL was simply called out by its full name on the wayfinding signs. I didn't notice if Chinook in concourse A is on the wayfinding at all.

As for what YYC is attempting to communicate on those signs that currently point to 'Lounges', who knows what they actually mean? Like I said above, my best guess is that they're instead attempting to point to bars, but - unlike some US airports - YYC doesn't actually have any true 'bars'. So it seems that the "lounge" signs are directing people to sit-down, full service restaurants (that happen to serve booze). Your guess is as good as mine.

Even stranger, the wayfinding in concourse A shows a 'martini glass' icon beside the word lounge (the classic, universal icon for 'bar'). I'm C, though, it's this much more vague icon of 'guy sitting in a really big chair'. Different icons representing the same thing, but hard to know what that 'thing' actually is.

(Also puzzling to me: Why did they write out "coffee shop" and "lounge" in two languages when they used the icons? Icons on signs are meant to replace text, after all. That's the whole point of using icons ... whether on highway signage or in airport wayfinding!)

My hunch: the signs inside concourses D and E seem like they were professionally done by folks who get the art and science of wayfinding. (Yes, there really is such a thing!).

But the new signs throughout the domestic terminal, meanwhile, were likely done 100% in house. My guess is they were done by a junior-ish person who got the job because s/he is really good at Adobe Illustrator or something similar, but who knows sweet-toot-all about wayfinding.

Last edited by Tobuz; Sep 17, 2017 at 6:24 AM.
     
     
  #6767  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 6:18 AM
Tobuz Tobuz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
The airport is aware of how inconsistent and horrific the signage is. This, however, does not mean that they intend to do anything about it.
Really?!? Oh good god. That's — depressing.

Getting the signage right should be a relatively quick and easy fix. A nice one to move over to the 'win' column, if they wanted to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
You have misread what is awful about 70-73, I don't recall the holdroom being among the complaints.
Totally agreed on your points listed above as being the key issues at those gates.

But I was simply referring to the domestic waiting/holdroom experience there ... which was the subject of a fair amount of angry passenger grumbling in the early months after opening. There was a fairly consistent flow of complaints about lack of amenities and lack of seating from domestic departing passengers at those swing gates in the early days.
     
     
  #6768  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 12:26 PM
outoftheice outoftheice is offline
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Thanks for the quality update. I agree the renovated area around A 21-24 is extremely well done. I know the Airport Authority has bigger issues to deal with at the moment but I really hope that the carpet, furniture and signage they used for this renovation is installed in the rest of the A, B and C gates in the not too distant future.

Speaking of awful 80s looks, I really wish the Airport Authority would invest some money into fixing up the food court and space port areas pre-security. Those areas always seem to get missed in every renovation cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post

Renovations at A gates 21-24:
Wow! This space is beautiful ... a great upgrade! These are the old domestic/transborder swing gates in the connector between the A and B concourses. They used to be utterly awful and dreary. Now, they're bright and airy (even with construction happening). And the new carpet is beautiful. A really cool hexagon carpet tile that's a massive improvement over the awful "1980s casino" carpet everywhere else in the domestic terminal.

Ignore the ugly construction hoarding here, but check out the new carpet:


     
     
  #6769  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 2:26 PM
CrossedTheTracks CrossedTheTracks is offline
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Originally Posted by outoftheice View Post
Speaking of awful 80s looks, I really wish the Airport Authority would invest some money into fixing up the food court and space port areas pre-security. Those areas always seem to get missed in every renovation cycle.
Well, not every renovation cycle. I'm wondering if you ever saw cafeteria that the food court replaced. Pretty sure the cafeteria was 1977 original, and wow, was it dark and dank. I can't remember when the food court was constructed, maybe early 90's?

Reminiscing aside, spending much money on pre-security facilities is out of style. I wish they'd have more food options post-security.
     
     
  #6770  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 1:16 AM
Tobuz Tobuz is offline
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Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks View Post
Well, not every renovation cycle. I'm wondering if you ever saw cafeteria that the food court replaced. Pretty sure the cafeteria was 1977 original, and wow, was it dark and dank. I can't remember when the food court was constructed, maybe early 90's?
If I recall, the cafeteria that used to be roughly where the pre-security food court is now was called the "Jolly Chef". It was a totally old school cafeteria, where you'd walk the long line of food options with your tray before getting to the cashier. I remember it fondly ... dining off of a plastic tray before flying off on a Wardair vacation with mom and dad back in the 70s!

Today, the whole Banff Hall area (food court especially) really is looking pretty dated. Even worse, it's starting to look like a tired old mall with lots of vacant spaces.

And the whole SpacePort thing adjacent to that food court? Sadly, it just seems dead now ... I'm not really sure why they even bother keeping it open.

Last edited by Tobuz; Sep 19, 2017 at 1:27 AM.
     
     
  #6771  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2017, 1:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post
If I recall, the cafeteria that used to be roughly where the pre-security food court is now was called the "Jolly Chef". It was a totally old school cafeteria, where you'd walk the long line of food options with your tray before getting to the cashier. I remember it fondly ... dining off of a plastic tray before flying off on a Wardair vacation with mom and dad back in the 70s!

Today, the whole Banff Hall area (food court especially) really is looking pretty dated. Even worse, it's starting to look like a tired old mall with lots of vacant spaces.

And the whole SpacePort thing adjacent to that food court? Sadly, it just seems dead now ... I'm not really sure why they even bother keeping it open.
It is a poor location. The only time I ended up there was when I wrapped up early headed to the airport and the CASTA people were throwing a bit of a fit and not permitting people to enter the gate area until 2 or 3 hours before their flight (cant remember which).

I could see some of the food outlets on the departure or arrival level getting some traffic but a food court that is up one level pre-security is going to do poorly.

I have walked by the SpacePort, but I have no idea what it is. Space museum? Planetarium?
     
     
  #6772  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 4:06 PM
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Frontier has loaded DEN-YYC flights onto their website for sale. Service is 3X (Sun, Tue, Thu) starting May 31. Flights are only loaded until Aug. 9th at the moment though I suspect that they will be extended.

What are the chances this thing gets off the ground? I'm skeptical, but still think it's more likely than progress on a deal for a new arena..

     
     
  #6773  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 4:11 PM
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Interesting flight times..how many departures does Frontier have out of DEN after 10pm that this could reasonably connect to? As of today only 9, but that may increase next summer.

     
     
  #6774  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 6:40 PM
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The redeye bank at DEN is one of the largest in the country all carriers combined. It is quite amazing actually.
     
     
  #6775  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 5:09 PM
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WestJet officially broke ground on their new WideBody Hangar this morning. I've been helping out on this project for the last year or so and can honestly say it's going to be a very nice building.

The first of 10 Boeing 787-9's begin to arrive in Q1 of 2019 and will find their home in the new hangar.

The New WideBody Hanger is connected via indoor walkway to the existing Russ White Hangar and is just South and East of the current building.



http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1269
     
     
  #6776  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 5:13 PM
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Great to see! WestJet's growth has truly been remarkable. Any idea as to the capacity of the new hangar?
     
     
  #6777  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2017, 1:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyc_engineer View Post
WestJet officially broke ground on their new WideBody Hangar this morning. I've been helping out on this project for the last year or so and can honestly say it's going to be a very nice building.

The first of 10 Boeing 787-9's begin to arrive in Q1 of 2019 and will find their home in the new hangar.

The New WideBody Hanger is connected via indoor walkway to the existing Russ White Hangar and is just South and East of the current building.

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1269
Exciting news for sure! A hangar for one aircraft that will service a fleet of 10-14 (if 767s are kept) seems reasonable - if not maybe a little low. However, a smart investment until they get settled in long-haul business.

Any ideas as to who is paying for this? WJ or the airport? This basically confirms I assume that WJ's western international hub will be in Calgary. I wonder how this impacts Vancouver and if some of Westjet's interline partners start moving over to Calgary instead.
     
     
  #6778  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2017, 6:07 AM
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Exciting news for sure! A hangar for one aircraft that will service a fleet of 10-14 (if 767s are kept) seems reasonable - if not maybe a little low. However, a smart investment until they get settled in long-haul business.

Any ideas as to who is paying for this? WJ or the airport? This basically confirms I assume that WJ's western international hub will be in Calgary. I wonder how this impacts Vancouver and if some of Westjet's interline partners start moving over to Calgary instead.
First off, I think their western hub will be Calgary. That is where they have all the regional flights to feed the international flights.

That said, I don't think the hanger proves much of anything other than they have a maintenance base in Calgary and need a widebody hanger.

Vancouver use to be the hub airport for both Air Canada and CP Air/Canadian. That included being the corporate head office for Canadian. There are a number of large hangers that could accommodate a wide-body. I don't think Air Canada has all of them in service. MTU had a large maintenance base that did a fair amount of work for both Air Canada and some the US airlines. They probably could rent existing space.

In Toronto WestJet is in a hanger that is part of a larger complex that predates WestJet and also includes Skyservice.

Back to Calgary, good seeing WestJet expand it campus. With the existing hander and the office block and now this new hanger that looks like quite the complex from the outside.
     
     
  #6779  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 11:17 PM
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I wonder how this impacts Vancouver and if some of Westjet's interline partners start moving over to Calgary instead.
Don't see that happening. WS already has a decent amount of codeshare and interline partners at YYC, including AM, AA, DL, UA, KL, HU, DE, AS, 9M, 5T.

FI is the only partner WS has that doesn't serve YYC and potentially could. However, FI certainly wont drop YVR to start YYC.

The rest are a long shot. Including CX or KE. And again, they certainly wont drop YVR in favor of YYC, if ever they do launch Cowtown.

Last edited by thenoflyzone; Sep 24, 2017 at 11:31 PM.
     
     
  #6780  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acey View Post
You'd love how the new swing gates are setup. Under a particular set of circumstances, pax can stroll directly onto an unattended airplane.
I've been on a plane at that gate where it took a seating conflict ("You're in 23A? But I'm in 23A.") for the already seated passenger to realize they were comfortably settled in on the wrong plane. Bizarrely, they were even on the wrong airline -- an AC CRJ instead of a WJ 737.

Clearly some people don't pay quite as much attention to airplanes and airports as the rest of us do.
     
     
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