ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Dettmann1

ATL-J - Complete agree with everything you said. I'd argue trying to talk any sense into some people on this forum won't work (ATL3k specifically). They live in a fantasy land where trying to balance a projects financial feasibility and urban design principles doesn't exist (It has to be super urban or is bad development).

Feel free to respond directly to me D-Mann.

I am not sure how long you have lived in Atlanta, but if you were here 6 - 8 years ago and rode through O4W it was equivalent to what Summerhill is today. It ONLY TOOK ONE PROJECT - PONCE CITY MARKET and now home prices and rental rates in O4W are off the charts. So don't tell me my logic is fantasy land.

Speaking of fantasy land - let's examine the pic that GA State and Carter used to bamboozel the COA taxpayers to sell them 72 acres of prime land for $30 Million. Perkins + Will is the architectural firm GA State and Carter contracted to create a vision for the Turner Field redevelopment. Do you also think Perkins + Will was/is in fantasy land as well with their rendering?

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by ATLSkyPalaceOwner

It is pay-walled for me, but what is the gist of it? The opening paragraph says that it "could" start in Q4. Given the projects history that doesn't really seem worthy of a lot of excitement.

Exactly and only 32, meh, the 45 plan was much sexier.

[Street Advocate]

Is his only for buckhead or all of Atlanta?!?

http://citycouncil.atlantaga.gov/Home/Components/News/News/252/175?backlist=%2F

[shivtim]

Accenture adding 800 jobs at Tech Square in Midtown.

[Dettmann1]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Feel free to respond directly to me D-Mann.

I am not sure how long you have lived in Atlanta, but if you were here 6 - 8 years ago and rode through O4W it was equivalent to what Summerhill is today. It ONLY TOOK ONE PROJECT - PONCE CITY MARKET and now home prices and rental rates in O4W are off the charts. So don't tell me my logic is fantasy land.

Speaking of fantasy land - let's examine the pic that GA State and Carter used to bamboozel the COA taxpayers to sell them 72 acres of prime land for $30 Million. Perkins + Will is the architectural firm GA State and Carter contracted to create a vision for the Turner Field redevelopment. Do you also think Perkins + Will was/is in fantasy land as well with their rendering?

I'm happy to respond and have done so in the past and I've lived in the city for 14 years.
Those are two entirely different in town markets. PCM and Old Fourth Ward was eventually going to get squeezed with Piedmont Park to its west, Virginia Highlands to its north and Decatur further east as well as Midtown nearby. It was prime real estate and the Beltline was a major catalyst for the area. PCM may have been the springboard, but without the old City Hall Building being there, that area wouldn't have changed as quickly. Jamestown picked it up on the cheap and was able to repurpose it to make a profit.

With Summerhill, they are doing something similar, but it has constraints:
1. The existing buildings are smaller in nature, which is going to up construction costs for anything bigger (good luck for getting a loan for what is shown in that render now for that area).
2. The surrounding neighborhoods aren't as valuable from a real estate perspective as what PCM walked into or Old 4th Ward was. Which again makes it hard to justify giving the go ahead to any big development at that location.

That's not to say that the site could look like that render 30 years from now which would be great. The main driver to making that happen though is GSU as Higher Ed development can be done in areas where a normal market condition development can't. Summerhill is also located in the lower right of that picture which seems to show the existing low rise buildings.

I really want the Turner Field redevelopment to succeed, but its not going to be something that can be transformed in 5 years. Its going to take a while and a lot of investment by GSU to make that "vision" a reality. I actually think the Summerhill development as proposed has the chance to turn our really nice. Sometimes the smaller developments in town end up being a catalyst as well.

[nab911]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Is his only for buckhead or all of Atlanta?!?

http://citycouncil.atlantaga.gov/Home/Components/News/News/252/175?backlist=%2F

It specifically states Buckhead and areas of I85 between peachtree rd. It also says they are using downtown as a measuring stick for how many spaces to allow. Looks like it goes into effect immediately while it makes it's way through senate cause Reed signed an executive order. I wonder what sparked this?

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Dettmann1

I'm happy to respond and have done so in the past and I've lived in the city for 14 years.
Those are two entirely different in town markets. PCM and Old Fourth Ward was eventually going to get squeezed with Piedmont Park to its west, Virginia Highlands to its north and Decatur further east as well as Midtown nearby. It was prime real estate and the Beltline was a major catalyst for the area. PCM may have been the springboard, but without the old City Hall Building being there, that area wouldn't have changed as quickly. Jamestown picked it up on the cheap and was able to repurpose it to make a profit.

With Summerhill, they are doing something similar, but it has constraints:
1. The existing buildings are smaller in nature, which is going to up construction costs for anything bigger (good luck for getting a loan for what is shown in that render now for that area).
2. The surrounding neighborhoods aren't as valuable from a real estate perspective as what PCM walked into or Old 4th Ward was. Which again makes it hard to justify giving the go ahead to any big development at that location.

That's not to say that the site could look like that render 30 years from now which would be great. The main driver to making that happen though is GSU as Higher Ed development can be done in areas where a normal market condition development can't. Summerhill is also located in the lower right of that picture which seems to show the existing low rise buildings.

I really want the Turner Field redevelopment to succeed, but its not going to be something that can be transformed in 5 years. Its going to take a while and a lot of investment by GSU to make that "vision" a reality. I actually think the Summerhill development as proposed has the chance to turn our really nice. Sometimes the smaller developments in town end up being a catalyst as well.

D-Mann - I think you are significantly under selling this area. Given Summerhill's proximity to Downtown, airport, GWCC, universities, highway, skyline view and relative closeness to MARTA many corporation and wealthy urban dwellers would find this area desirable if the development is designed appropriately.

Why do you find it unimaginable for a Summerhill developer to get a loan for a mid-rise/high-rise office, hotel, apartment or condo when developers are getting loans in less desirable areas of Atlanta (Westside, Underground, South Downtown - Newport). I did a quick search on Zillow and was pleasantly surprised at the prices homes are selling for pre-gentrification. The median home price in Atlanta is $230K. As you can see below, Summerhill homes are at or significantly above the median home price.



Why do you feel the size of the existing stock of buildings, homes and apartments in Summerhill should limit or dictate the size of the future development? I live in a single family house and my yard backs to Park Regency (22 story condo) and I live in frickin' Buckhead. Why do you think Summerhill's density should be less than other areas of Atlanta?

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

D-Mann - I think you are significantly under selling this area. Given Summerhill's proximity to Downtown, airport, GWCC, universities, highway, skyline view and relative closeness to MARTA many corporation and wealthy urban dwellers would find this area desirable if the development is designed appropriately.


Why do you feel the size of the existing stock of buildings, homes and apartments in Summerhill should limit or dictate the size of the future development? I live in a single family house and my yard backs to Park Regency (22 story condo) and I live in frickin' Buckhead. Why do you think Summerhill's density should be less than other areas of Atlanta?

I don't think anyone on here is underselling the area- they're just trying to communicate that you can't have it all at once. Summerhill shouldn't be treated like some mega-project being built all at once to satiate everyone's pro-development boners.

Also-not sure how you're characterizing other areas like the Westside, Underground, South Downtown areas are less desirable to justify your point- they're full of existing building stock that's already been (or in the process of being) redeveloped. The momentum was there long before the mega-development projects jumped on board. This was the case with PCM in O4W- the area already had 2 apartment complexes before the O4W park broke ground and before Jamestown bought City Hall East.

Redevelopment of the neighborhoods like Summerhill, Peoplestown, and even spill-over developments in the Mechanicsville neighborhood is more complex than just shoving in high density uses right next to the current neighborhood's building stock; using Buckhead as a case study to justify shoving high-rises next to single family homes doesn't make your argument any more sound.

Perkins+Will's plan/rednerings illustrate a "best case scenario" where density is maxed out where appropriate and illustrates how the redevelopment should be sensitive in scale/density to the current residential areas that surround the sites. That being said the rendering is over-hyped with unrealities (have you ever seen a city with that many green roofs?). Their plan illustrates trees in the most precarious places.

[Dettmann1]

[QUOTE=Atlanta3000;7927798]D-Mann - I think you are significantly under selling this area. Given Summerhill's proximity to Downtown, airport, GWCC, universities, highway, skyline view and relative closeness to MARTA many corporation and wealthy urban dwellers would find this area desirable if the development is designed appropriately.

Why do you find it unimaginable for a Summerhill developer to get a loan for a mid-rise/high-rise office, hotel, apartment or condo when developers are getting loans in less desirable areas of Atlanta (Westside, Underground, South Downtown - Newport). I did a quick search on Zillow and was pleasantly surprised at the prices homes are selling for pre-gentrification. The median home price in Atlanta is $230K. As you can see below, Summerhill homes are at or significantly above the median home price.

Why do you feel the size of the existing stock of buildings, homes and apartments in Summerhill should limit or dictate the size of the future development? I live in a single family house and my yard backs to Park Regency (22 story condo) and I live in frickin' Buckhead. Why do you think Summerhill's density should be less than other areas of Atlanta?

Your again picking specific cases that have special cases. Do you know how long it took for Westside to gain momentum? Or how about South Downtown, which as of right now is just a "paper redevelopment". Westside took the redevelopment of Atlantic Station and 5-10 years plus after that to get to where it is now which is in a full development swing and still continues to have non-urban development (Cookout and chick-fil-a come to mind). It helps that GT bought up a bunch of the southern property between Coke and GT as well and cleaned up that area (GT has much much deeper pockets than GSU has to do things like that as well, plus a well funded endowment run by a bunch of really bright RE and PE folks).

Underground is also at this point a "paper redevelopment". I can't tell you the number of times I've witnessed projects be announced only to fade due to Mistiming etc. (The redevelopment of City Hall East was talked about when I moved here in 2003-4. It didn't come to fruition until much later).

The land values you cite aren't all that high compared to Atlanta as a whole. Midtown/Piedmont park are much higher and even then you only see highrises in select areas where companies can justify a $2+ per SF rent number. You can't get that in an area south of downtown at this point, not by a longshot even with Higher Ed Money.

As I said, the Summerhill proposal is a start. They are proposing the right things to start to create density and character: Using existing buildings, street fronting new buildings and placing parking at the rear/internal to the blocks. I'd view those as wins and the potential start to a much more urban fabric the further north and west you go in the Turner field redevelopment.

[BlueSangha]

Blah blah blah

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

I don't think anyone on here is underselling the area- they're just trying to communicate that you can't have it all at once. Summerhill shouldn't be treated like some mega-project being built all at once to satiate everyone's pro-development boners.

Where did I say everything had to be built at once? Just so you are clear, what I am saying is don't build Phase I less dense (and in this case shitty looking as well) in hopes that Phase II, III...getting denser and/or nicer. Build Phase I the right way or don't build at all.

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Also-not sure how you're characterizing other areas like the Westside, Underground, South Downtown areas are less desirable to justify your point- they're full of existing building stock that's already been (or in the process of being) redeveloped. The momentum was there long before the mega-development projects jumped on board. This was the case with PCM in O4W- the area already had 2 apartment complexes before the O4W park broke ground and before Jamestown bought City Hall East.

Seriously, are you saying the Westside, Underground and South Downtown areas are NOT less desirable than Midtown, West Midtown, O4W, VA Highlands and Buckhead? If you are even debating this point it is very difficult to even begin to have an intellectual conversation with you.

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Redevelopment of the neighborhoods like Summerhill, Peoplestown, and even spill-over developments in the Mechanicsville neighborhood is more complex than just shoving in high density uses right next to the current neighborhood's building stock; using Buckhead as a case study to justify shoving high-rises next to single family homes doesn't make your argument any more sound.

How about you enlighten us plebeians on the "complexities" of building a high density development in area (Summerhill) that is 0.8 mile (from 876 Fulton St SW to GA State Capital building) from the densest area of Atlanta? How is it high-rises are being built next to single family homes in HomePark, Lindbergh, Buckhead Village, Brookhaven, Peachtree Hills, Midtown, O4W, VA Highlands, Ansley Park...etc, but me illustrating my point in my own back yard doesn't make my argument "any more sound"?

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Perkins+Will's plan/rednerings illustrate a "best case scenario" where density is maxed out where appropriate and illustrates how the redevelopment should be sensitive in scale/density to the current residential areas that surround the sites. That being said the rendering is over-hyped with unrealities (have you ever seen a city with that many green roofs?). Their plan illustrates trees in the most precarious places.

I will agree Perkins + Will used creative license with the green roofs and a blimp picturesquely hovering above, but that is it. The land GA State and Carter bought are fucking parking lots and shanties. To describe them otherwise is borderline delusional. I have taken the liberty to highlight the areas on Google Maps in question if you are confusing the area, city, state and or forum we are debating

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by BlueSangha

Blah blah blah

Thought I was the only one...

[Atlanta3000]

[QUOTE=Dettmann1;7927913]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

D-Mann - I think you are significantly under selling this area. Given Summerhill's proximity to Downtown, airport, GWCC, universities, highway, skyline view and relative closeness to MARTA many corporation and wealthy urban dwellers would find this area desirable if the development is designed appropriately.

Why do you find it unimaginable for a Summerhill developer to get a loan for a mid-rise/high-rise office, hotel, apartment or condo when developers are getting loans in less desirable areas of Atlanta (Westside, Underground, South Downtown - Newport). I did a quick search on Zillow and was pleasantly surprised at the prices homes are selling for pre-gentrification. The median home price in Atlanta is $230K. As you can see below, Summerhill homes are at or significantly above the median home price.

Why do you feel the size of the existing stock of buildings, homes and apartments in Summerhill should limit or dictate the size of the future development? I live in a single family house and my yard backs to Park Regency (22 story condo) and I live in frickin' Buckhead. Why do you think Summerhill's density should be less than other areas of Atlanta?

Your again picking specific cases that have special cases. Do you know how long it took for Westside to gain momentum? Or how about South Downtown, which as of right now is just a "paper redevelopment". Westside took the redevelopment of Atlantic Station and 5-10 years plus after that to get to where it is now which is in a full development swing and still continues to have non-urban development (Cookout and chick-fil-a come to mind). It helps that GT bought up a bunch of the southern property between Coke and GT as well and cleaned up that area (GT has much much deeper pockets than GSU has to do things like that as well, plus a well funded endowment run by a bunch of really bright RE and PE folks).

Underground is also at this point a "paper redevelopment". I can't tell you the number of times I've witnessed projects be announced only to fade due to Mistiming etc. (The redevelopment of City Hall East was talked about when I moved here in 2003-4. It didn't come to fruition until much later).

The land values you cite aren't all that high compared to Atlanta as a whole. Midtown/Piedmont park are much higher and even then you only see highrises in select areas where companies can justify a $2+ per SF rent number. You can't get that in an area south of downtown at this point, not by a longshot even with Higher Ed Money.

As I said, the Summerhill proposal is a start. They are proposing the right things to start to create density and character: Using existing buildings, street fronting new buildings and placing parking at the rear/internal to the blocks. I'd view those as wins and the potential start to a much more urban fabric the further north and west you go in the Turner field redevelopment.

This is my last response on this subject so we don't highjack this thread.

In my opinion Gwinnett, Cobb, Sandy Springs and Alpharetta are more ambitious with their expectations of developments and developers than you feel we should with GA State and Carter. Not to mention, GA State and Carter fleecing the COA taxpayers to sell them 72 acres @ $30 Million with a full court PR spread detailing a dense mixed-use urban development with green roofs and a f'en blimp hovering over the horizon. Honestly I feel sad and quite frankly disturbed you or anyone else is fine with this.

I'm out.....

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by BlueSangha

Blah blah blah

Please feel free to post articles on Atlanta developments or pictures of Atlanta developments - ASAP. I am very eager for your contribution to this forum BS (BlueSangha) which up to now has been nothing.

[BlueSangha]

My contribution is what it is, I don’t need you or anyone else’s guidance on it either. I’m here as a skyscraper enthusiast and that it’s all. That said, it does get tiresome scrolling through long drawn out arguments which amount to opinions half the time by experts who often times in the end come to ad hominem conclusions. My trite comment should be the least of your worries, but apparently it is. Whatever.

[Pemgin]

Everyone be happy! Eviva is coming!!

[jwbab]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Everyone be happy! Eviva is coming!!

Sigh.... I .... just.... can't ...... anymore....

I promised myself not to get excited about Eviva until I see equipment actually breaking ground.

The ABC article included the following:

It would become one of a series of apartment towers in what Samuelson calls “The Village of Midtown,” an area around Juniper Street in walking distance of MARTA and Piedmont Park.

I live in the area and have never heard of "The Village of Midtown." Does this moniker have any history?

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by jwbab

Sigh.... I .... just.... can't ...... anymore....

I promised myself not to get excited about Eviva until I see equipment actually breaking ground.

I feel similar to this on a few projects. I'm ready for the next wave to break ground. 1105 W. Peachtree, Opus, Eviva, JR Crickets, and whatever is proposed at the O4W Georgia Power site developments would make a big impact.

SLS, Yoo on Peachtree, 1125 Peachtree, and StarMetals I'm considering dormant until we receive some news from the developers, though I would love either to break ground.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

It's funny how some people on here always find themselves in arguments... but that's none of my business

In other news, it looks like the possibility of a tower 2 to complement the 22 14th and Whole Foods development are dim. The Whole foods has steel warehouse style of construction capping the top floor which can't support a high-rise building on it.


And for Eviva, I know the guy that brokered the sale of land. They are paying a hefty penalty every month they don't start construction as part of the retail ownership agreement. On top of that, they had an offer that would have netted a 10% return a few months after they sold and they rejected the offer. Those two things combined make it a strong bet that construction has to start soon or they will have to sell.

[Verge]

BTW-- The Perkins + Will Drawings for the GSU/ Turner site were commissioned by The Atlanta Regional Commission as a part of the area's LCI planning process-- It has/ had NOTHING to do with GSU or Carter or the reality of today's latest plans. No bait and switch at all-- though perhaps some disappointment. $416K an acre in this area is NOT insubstantial or a 'rip-off' of anyone. This is not Midtown--