Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Express691]

http://globalnews.ca/video/3754425/surrey-mayor-urges-quick-action-on-lrt

News Clip on Global BC: Hepner pushes BC Gov't and T/L to 'Hurry Up' on LRT decision, Daryl makes a statement in the clip regarding the cost-benefit analysis/business case.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Express691

http://globalnews.ca/video/3754425/surrey-mayor-urges-quick-action-on-lrt

News Clip on Global BC: Hepner pushes BC Gov't and T/L to 'Hurry Up' on LRT decision, Daryl makes a statement in the clip regarding the cost-benefit analysis/business case.

...and the province won't make a decision until it gets business cases for both phase 2 options. That doesn't sound good for LRT on Fraser Hwy.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Sheba

That doesn't sound good for LRT on Fraser Hwy.

Good.

[Metro-One]

This will be a big one for me regarding the NDP.

If they choose Skytrain to Langley, I will gain some respect for them knowing that they have put the vitality of transportation before politics.

If they choose LRT, then I know they are just pandering.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

these things should be taken out of politicians hands and given to engineers and planners to decide where the next line should go. planners and engineers come up with location, routing, lengths, technology taking into consideration current usage, technology integration, projected populations and current populations. they should come up with a 10 year plan to replace the mayors 10 year plan. that way instead of pandering to the mayors and building crap, it is actual the best for the region. but that will never happen; oh well, such is life.

Honestly, statements like this really imply that you don't understand how cities actually function. Mayors don't just sit around and think these things up in a vacuum, they rely heavily on city staff and consultants who are actually planners and engineers. It's the city staff and consultants who largely come up with location, routing, lengths, and technology that the mayors then vote on. It's very rare that a mayor or councillor bikesheds to the extent that they're dictating the details. They'll dictate the larger visions and whatnot, but the details are left to the actual professionals that you say should be in charge of the details.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Geof

The Canada Line decision was 13 years ago. You think it makes a case that an entirely different group of mayors are incompetent buffoons? Never mind that your argument is only weakened when all you point to is one debatable event from yesteryear.

Not so... just like the recent posts here confirm, complete dysfunction. The streetcar is a Hepner pet project. No one in Surrey or Langley wants it "snailing" along 104th or down Fraser Hwy. The NDP in all conscience won't approve anything but an extension of the Expo line to Langley. Good luck Hepner with your "pushing".

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Honestly, statements like this really imply that you don't understand how cities actually function. Mayors don't just sit around and think these things up in a vacuum, they rely heavily on city staff and consultants who are actually planners and engineers. It's the city staff and consultants who largely come up with location, routing, lengths, and technology that the mayors then vote on. It's very rare that a mayor or councillor bikesheds to the extent that they're dictating the details. They'll dictate the larger visions and whatnot, but the details are left to the actual professionals that you say should be in charge of the details.

well of course they do. but the politicians come up with the idea such as LRT and then task staff to come up with the details. or look at the Millennium-Line. thought up by politicians to service NDP areas. sure planners came up with the details, but the terrible idea, such as Surrey LRT, was thought up by politicians.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

If they choose Skytrain to Langley, I will gain some respect for them knowing that they have put the vitality of transportation before politics.

Why do you want to extend Skytrain to Langley? While the ALRT has a top speed of 80 km/h (which is still slower than a bus on the freeway), with all the stops its average speed is just under 55 km/h. As a result, it will take close to an hour to get downtown from Langley on Skytrain. That might be acceptable during rush hour when traffic is snarled up, but the trains will be largely empty outside of that.

It still doesn't do anything about the fact that you are funnelling everyone through the Dunsmuir Tunnel in the same direction. What Vancouver really needs is a network of grade separated trains (regardless of technology) that work together, sharing the load. The Canada Line was a step in the right direction (even though it was under-built because of opposition from the Mayors Counsel) and the UBC-Broadway Line will connect the two as well as provide crosstown service (though it will really expose the limitations of the Canada Line underbuild).

To me, the next line (it actually should have pre-dated the Millennium Line and possibly even the Surrey bridge) should be an extension from Waterfront, along Powell or Cordova to E. Hastings and then on to the PNE and Kootenay Loop. This would provide an alternate route downtown and would use the Dunsmuir Tunnel more effectively as full trains would be travelling through it in both directions during the rush hours.

If we really want to promote sprawl up the valley more than it already is, some type of express service (bus or train) on a dedicated corridor would be much more effective.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you want to extend Skytrain to Langley? While the ALRT has a top speed of 80 km/h (which is still slower than a bus on the freeway), with all the stops its average speed is just under 55 km/h. As a result, it will take close to an hour to get downtown from Langley on Skytrain.

Would it be technically possible (I don't care about the cost) to upgrade the technology of the SkyTrain or tune it to allow for a higher speed?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you want to extend Skytrain to Langley? While the ALRT has a top speed of 80 km/h (which is still slower than a bus on the freeway), with all the stops its average speed is just under 55 km/h. As a result, it will take close to an hour to get downtown from Langley on Skytrain. That might be acceptable during rush hour when traffic is snarled up, but the trains will be largely empty outside of that.

It still doesn't do anything about the fact that you are funnelling everyone through the Dunsmuir Tunnel in the same direction. What Vancouver really needs is a network of grade separated trains (regardless of technology) that work together, sharing the load. The Canada Line was a step in the right direction (even though it was under-built because of opposition from the Mayors Counsel) and the UBC-Broadway Line will connect the two as well as provide crosstown service (though it will really expose the limitations of the Canada Line underbuild).

To me, the next line (it actually should have pre-dated the Millennium Line and possibly even the Surrey bridge) should be an extension from Waterfront, along Powell or Cordova to E. Hastings and then on to the PNE and Kootenay Loop. This would provide an alternate route downtown and would use the Dunsmuir Tunnel more effectively as full trains would be travelling through it in both directions during the rush hours.

If we really want to promote sprawl up the valley more than it already is, some type of express service (bus or train) on a dedicated corridor would be much more effective.

An hour from Langley to downtown is still a hell of a lot better than any transit option currently available, not to mention that not everyone will be heading downtown.

Besides, I think a lot of people here aren't huge supporters of SkyTrain to Langley. We're just anti-LRT, and if rapid transit does have to go to Langley, it should at least be the right kind.

[Bdawe]

Yes, the skytrain is slower than a freeway bus.

The skytrain also goes a lot more destinations than a freeway bus can (while still being a freeway bus).

The skytrain would like together the employment centers of Langley City (25,000 jobs, 2011), Surrey Central (22,000 jobs), New Westminster (9,000 jobs), Metrotown (27,000 jobs) and Downtown Vancouver (262,000 jobs in 2011)

The freeway serves none of those employment centers directly, and looking at Google Maps at 2:25 PM on a weekday, it still would take 57 minutes right now to drive from Downtown Vancouver to Langley City

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

An hour from Langley to downtown is still a hell of a lot better than any transit option currently available, not to mention that not everyone will be heading downtown.

Besides, I think a lot of people here aren't huge supporters of SkyTrain to Langley. We're just anti-LRT, and if rapid transit does have to go to Langley, it should at least be the right kind.

I'm for Skytrain down Fraser Hwy to Langley - it just doesn't need to be built all at once. It would make more sense if they built it in 2 or 3 phases, with phase 1 going to Fleetwood (that deals with the problem of driving through Green Timbers). As it'll be an elevated line it's not a huge issue to extend it in phases.

People in Langley are far more likely to be travelling to downtown Surrey, New West or even Metrotown than they are to be travelling to anywhere in Vancouver.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you want to extend Skytrain to Langley? While the ALRT has a top speed of 80 km/h (which is still slower than a bus on the freeway), with all the stops its average speed is just under 55 km/h. As a result, it will take close to an hour to get downtown from Langley on Skytrain. That might be acceptable during rush hour when traffic is snarled up, but the trains will be largely empty outside of that.

It still doesn't do anything about the fact that you are funnelling everyone through the Dunsmuir Tunnel in the same direction. What Vancouver really needs is a network of grade separated trains (regardless of technology) that work together, sharing the load. The Canada Line was a step in the right direction (even though it was under-built because of opposition from the Mayors Counsel) and the UBC-Broadway Line will connect the two as well as provide crosstown service (though it will really expose the limitations of the Canada Line underbuild).

To me, the next line (it actually should have pre-dated the Millennium Line and possibly even the Surrey bridge) should be an extension from Waterfront, along Powell or Cordova to E. Hastings and then on to the PNE and Kootenay Loop. This would provide an alternate route downtown and would use the Dunsmuir Tunnel more effectively as full trains would be travelling through it in both directions during the rush hours.

If we really want to promote sprawl up the valley more than it already is, some type of express service (bus or train) on a dedicated corridor would be much more effective.

Find, you can have your LRT if, and only IF WCE is run every half hour, BOTH ways All DAY.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Yes, the skytrain is slower than a freeway bus.

The skytrain also goes a lot more destinations than a freeway bus can (while still being a freeway bus).

The skytrain would like together the employment centers of Langley City (25,000 jobs, 2011), Surrey Central (22,000 jobs), New Westminster (9,000 jobs), Metrotown (27,000 jobs) and Downtown Vancouver (262,000 jobs in 2011)

The freeway serves none of those employment centers directly, and looking at Google Maps at 2:25 PM on a weekday, it still would take 57 minutes right now to drive from Downtown Vancouver to Langley City

We also need to keep in mind that most people commuting from Langley and Surrey, are commuting to Surrey. This was confirmed by a translink study a year ago (I think). The Skytrain extension would significantly serve people that live and WORK in the cities South of Fraser AND it would also connect everyone else to the job centres that you mentioned . Again, an hour long commute is very reasonable.

I'm for Skytrain down Fraser Hwy to Langley - it just doesn't need to be built all at once. It would make more sense if they built it in 2 or 3 phases, with phase 1 going to Fleetwood (that deals with the problem of driving through Green Timbers). As it'll be an elevated line it's not a huge issue to extend it in phases.

I disagree with doing it in phases only because it will just increase the price of construction, and building it all at once would disrupt the Fraser Highway less. As far as I can tell (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), the skytrain extension to Langley is a very simple and inexpensive extension. There isn't any difficult topography or complicated neighbourhoods that it is passing through. If it's being designed to be elevated over the Fraser Highway then the only relatively expensive part of this extension would be the stations themselves. We should give this extension the Milennium line treatment, and just build the damn thing all at once to cut on inflation, and then reap the benefits as they come (if one is concerned with TOD).

[scryer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you want to extend Skytrain to Langley? While the ALRT has a top speed of 80 km/h (which is still slower than a bus on the freeway), with all the stops its average speed is just under 55 km/h. As a result, it will take close to an hour to get downtown from Langley on Skytrain. That might be acceptable during rush hour when traffic is snarled up, but the trains will be largely empty outside of that.

Two things:

1. An hour for commuting is completely acceptable.

2. The trains on the Expo line are already significantly quieter inbetween rush hour. But they do not sit empty. Translink already reduces the amount of trains they send out inbetween popular commute times.

It still doesn't do anything about the fact that you are funnelling everyone through the Dunsmuir Tunnel in the same direction. What Vancouver really needs is a network of grade separated trains (regardless of technology) that work together, sharing the load. The Canada Line was a step in the right direction (even though it was under-built because of opposition from the Mayors Counsel) and the UBC-Broadway Line will connect the two as well as provide crosstown service (though it will really expose the limitations of the Canada Line underbuild).

I definitely don't mean to be rude but you kind of defeated your own point.

But to highlight with my thoughts: I don't think that Vancouver has enough demand to justify relief lines yet. But the plans to extend the Millennium line to connect to Broadway station will provide a similar relief service as you described. This extension will be a good test to see if people would be willing to commute east from Broadway station to their destination, whether it be to Commercial Drive or beyond. And it will also be a good test to see if how effective a relief line would be, etc.

And for the record, I also think that the Canada Line was underbuilt.

To me, the next line (it actually should have pre-dated the Millennium Line and possibly even the Surrey bridge) should be an extension from Waterfront, along Powell or Cordova to E. Hastings and then on to the PNE and Kootenay Loop. This would provide an alternate route downtown and would use the Dunsmuir Tunnel more effectively as full trains would be travelling through it in both directions during the rush hours.

If we do not extend the Millennium line this time to UBC then I think that we should continue extending it until it's at UBC. IMO the current plans just push the B-line overcrowding issues to Arbutus and it doesn't actually solve the problem or carry people to their obvious destination.

Translink just opened up a B-line to go through east Van. So the demand isn't there quite yet. But I love the idea as a relief line sometime in the future.

If we really want to promote sprawl up the valley more than it already is, some type of express service (bus or train) on a dedicated corridor would be much more effective.

I agree that if we start aggressively sprawling beyond the city of Langley and beyond Maple Ridge that we should seriously consider express train service (as I do not like drivers with salaries lol). However we are not at that point yet. The WCE was built before its time, and I truly mean that in the best sense possible; the WCE express not only serves the people in municipalities deep into Fraser valley but it also serves as a reliable measuring stick for the demand for long distance suburban rail.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Find, you can have your LRT if, and only IF WCE is run every half hour, BOTH ways All DAY.

My LRT? I never said anything about LRT. Having said that, I don't understand why people would prefer extending Skytrain (with its expensive elevated guideways and expensive elevated stations) when a cheaper, at grade, LRT solution would be more than adequate (I'm thinking something closer to Calgary's C-Train than Ottawa's O-Train, which really isn't an LRT).

Originally Posted by scryer

Two things:

1. An hour for commuting is completely acceptable.

Fair enough, though why promote mediocre. Whatever you build, you will be stuck with for a long time. I'm always a believer in doing it right the first time.

2. The trains on the Expo line are already significantly quieter inbetween rush hour. But they do not sit empty. Translink already reduces the amount of trains they send out inbetween popular commute times.

As are transit systems all over the globe, but the further you get from the core, the larger the difference becomes.

I definitely don't mean to be rude but you kind of defeated your own point.

How so? The vast majority of people from the Expo, Millennium and Evergreen lines will still be travelling through the Dunsmuir tunnel. The UBC line might help a bit, but it would be a long detour (and add the two transfers) for someone to switch to the Canada Line.

But to highlight with my thoughts: I don't think that Vancouver has enough demand to justify relief lines yet. But the plans to extend the Millennium line to connect to Broadway station will provide a similar relief service as you described. This extension will be a good test to see if people would be willing to commute east from Broadway station to their destination, whether it be to Commercial Drive or beyond. And it will also be a good test to see if how effective a relief line would be, etc.

So all Tunnels downtown should terminate at Waterfront and thus run at 50% capacity by design?

If we do not extend the Millennium line this time to UBC then I think that we should continue extending it until it's at UBC. IMO the current plans just push the B-line overcrowding issues to Arbutus and it doesn't actually solve the problem or carry people to their obvious destination.

I 100% agree. Sorry if my original post wasn't clear on that. It would also provide an alternate route for those who live in the communities east of UBC to travel further east.

Translink just opened up a B-line to go through east Van. So the demand isn't there quite yet. But I love the idea as a relief line sometime in the future.

Isn't that what they said about the Canada Line? Judging transit need by bus use on a congested corridor is like judging where bridges are needed by the number of people who swim. Besides, if the Millennium Line had used this route instead of going to Commercial, it would have served more than just East Van. If followed by a push towards transit-oriented development (TOD), it would make the line more successful (though the NIMBYs will resist the desertification along the route).

I agree that if we start aggressively sprawling beyond the city of Langley and beyond Maple Ridge that we should seriously consider express train service (as I do not like drivers with salaries lol). However we are not at that point yet. The WCE was built before its time, and I truly mean that in the best sense possible; the WCE express not only serves the people in municipalities deep into Fraser valley but it also serves as a reliable measuring stick for the demand for long distance suburban rail.

The WCE has its own set of problems. The biggest is that the CPR gouges TransLink for access to the line, limiting the affordability of offering decent service. It also doesn't have any stops between Moody Centre and Waterfront (admittedly the route doesn't allow for one). Also, since it is on an active rail line, they had to use, large, heavy, slow commuter rail vehicles. With a dedicated corridor, they could use smaller, lighter, faster, more agile vehicles, but the upfront cost for that would be prohibitively expensive.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The WCE has its own set of problems. The biggest is that the CPR gouges TransLink for access to the line, limiting the affordability of offering decent service. It also doesn't have any stops between Moody Centre and Waterfront (admittedly the route doesn't allow for one). Also, since it is on an active rail line, they had to use, large, heavy, slow commuter rail vehicles. With a dedicated corridor, they could use smaller, lighter, faster, more agile vehicles, but the upfront cost for that would be prohibitively expensive.

What you say makes a fair bit of sense, but you're also missing some of the local nuance that infrastructure needs around here.

WCE basically breaks even with whatever CPR charges, so it's not unaffordable what they charge. There are almost no areas for stations between Port Moody and Vancouver. It doesn't matter that they're not there, because the port is security restricted and the rail line is at the bottom of a cliff face in Burnaby with next to zero public access.

Also, CPR doesn't want to sell more track time. They want to service the port. The port is king when it comes to rail use on those lines.

For the Expo Line, you don't want to keep extending it. It's already pretty long for a transit line with short headways. If the Langley extension goes ahead, it may be prudent to end the line and force a transfer. Same goes for a Hastings Line. The advantage of forcing a transfer would be that any delays or service interruptions don't spill out across the entire system.

If Expo ran to Langley, then was extended east along Hastings, a single outage could disrupt almost 60km of transit line. Much better to have it be a couple different trips when it's unlikely that someone is going to ride from Langley to Hastings and Nanaimo.

A line coming out the east side of waterfront would be very handy, but the Dunsmuir Tunnel isn't underutilized. The stations are maxing out at their safe capacity as is. Making them busy in both directions at the same time would mean that Granville, Burrard and Waterfront would all need to be greatly expanded.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

What you say makes a fair bit of sense, but you're also missing some of the local nuance that infrastructure needs around here.

I grew up in Abbotsford, so I am not a total foreigner, though maybe a bit out of date.

WCE basically breaks even with whatever CPR charges, so it's not unaffordable what they charge.

Interesting. But that is for peak period service. Extending outside of peak would likely be unaffordable.

There are almost no areas for stations between Port Moody and Vancouver. It doesn't matter that they're not there, because the port is security restricted and the rail line is at the bottom of a cliff face in Burnaby with next to zero public access.

That is what I meant by "the route doesn't allow for one." The limitation is because the route used, not them choosing not to build another station. They didn't have much choice as to the route though.

Also, CPR doesn't want to sell more track time. They want to service the port. The port is king when it comes to rail use on those lines.

Agreed. Another limitation of the route used. Symptomatic of passenger rail across the country. VIA has troubles maintaining on-time performance on all of their routes because, unlike any other country in the world (including the USA), in Canada freight trains are allowed to have priority over passenger trains.

For the Expo Line, you don't want to keep extending it. It's already pretty long for a transit line with short headways. If the Langley extension goes ahead, it may be prudent to end the line and force a transfer. Same goes for a Hastings Line. The advantage of forcing a transfer would be that any delays or service interruptions don't spill out across the entire system.

If Expo ran to Langley, then was extended east along Hastings, a single outage could disrupt almost 60km of transit line. Much better to have it be a couple different trips when it's unlikely that someone is going to ride from Langley to Hastings and Nanaimo.

What your saying is very true for buses, but less true for SkyTrain. It is not affected by traffic so timing is predictable. As for outages, most will be local and the tracks do have crossovers, so the trains could stop one station before the outage and then turn around, so unless they are needing to add more trains and the blockage prevents them from getting there, a problem at one end of the line shouldn't have much of an effect at the other end. Connecting to the Millennium Line would create a giant circle, giving an alternate route for redundancy. If an outage affects the entire line (a power failure for example) it will likely affect all lines, so a spit won't help.

A line coming out the east side of waterfront would be very handy, but the Dunsmuir Tunnel isn't underutilized. The stations are maxing out at their safe capacity as is. Making them busy in both directions at the same time would mean that Granville, Burrard and Waterfront would all need to be greatly expanded.

That point is well taken. They would be using separate platforms, so that wouldn't be an issue. The only issue would be the exits. Staggering the arrival of trains in opposite directions would help, but they likely would need additional escalators. An added cost yes, but cheaper than digging an entirely new tunnel with new stations though.

I do find it humours that some say we are a long way from approaching the capacity of the Dunsmuir Tunnel and yet you say the downtown stations are at capacity. They can't both be true.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by roger1818

How so? The vast majority of people from the Expo, Millennium and Evergreen lines will still be travelling through the Dunsmuir tunnel. The UBC line might help a bit, but it would be a long detour (and add the two transfers) for someone to switch to the Canada Line.

This has been debunked many times before - the vast majority of people are not travelling into downtown Vancouver. Someone from Langley isn't likely to take the train all the way to Waterfront for work.

Also it's the Evergreen extension of the Millennium Line, so only two lines vs the three you seem to think it is. Having the Millennium Line connect with the Canada Line will help more than a bit, as many people currently take the Expo Line to downtown Vancouver and transfer to the Canada Line there. With a Millennium Line connection people will be able to transfer to the Canada Line south of downtown Vancouver.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Sheba

This has been debunked many times before - the vast majority of people are not travelling into downtown Vancouver. Someone from Langley isn't likely to take the train all the way to Waterfront for work.

Fair enough, but it doesn't explain why the SkyTrain should be extended all the way out to Langley. The ALRT is great for moving large volumes of people over a medium distance by providing ultra frequent trains. During peak periods the Expo Line runs 4 and 6 car trains and I don't see Langley having a large enough population base to fill that size of train without dropping the service frequency significantly. If they are running trains every 15 or 20 minutes during peak periods (and even less during off peak), why do you need an expensive, computer controlled train? If it is to allow direct service, you are saying most people in Langley are going to Surrey anyway, and for those who want to travel on across the Fraser, transferring to a much more frequent train isn't that bad.

Also it's the Evergreen extension of the Millennium Line, so only two lines vs the three you seem to think it is.

That is just semantics. People are coming from three different directions.

Having the Millennium Line connect with the Canada Line will help more than a bit, as many people currently take the Expo Line to downtown Vancouver and transfer to the Canada Line there. With a Millennium Line connection people will be able to transfer to the Canada Line south of downtown Vancouver.

Point well taken. I was never against the Broadway/UBC Line though. IMHO it should have been built prior to the Millennium Line (and thus Evergreen extension). The most successful systems provide a network of lines in the city centre so that you can quickly get around the parts where congestion is the worst. The suburbs are better served by feeder bus routes (with transit priority measures as needed) into the main network.