Amazon HQ2 thread

[llamaorama]

Originally Posted by JoeMusashi

The level of jerking off of Amazon we are seeing is remarkable. Remember when people hated Walmart? Amazon is Walmart on steroids. You don't even need to get off your fat ass with Amazon unlike Walmart that at least required you to drive your car and walk around. Amazon is the company that we see in science fiction and dystopian entertainment. I hope they do build in Detroit or Chicago, Robocop style. Their power is so great that they, along with their partner in crime NYT, run a partisan news & propaganda wing.

And then we get to the people working there. I keep hearing about 'Amazon culture'. Holy fucking shit. Reminds me of the movie Metropolis, except it will be a bunch of progressive wunderkinds doing yoga in the clouds above the slaves. The whole Silicon Valley culture makes me cringe.

Some of this I agree with, some of it I don't.

It's true that Amazon is getting kind of big for its britches, but it's a ways off from being "dystopian".

I don't know if criticizing them for their company culture is fair, nobody is forcing you to work there. That said I wouldn't want to work there either.

One side benefit of a mostly crappy future where the US isn't the only superpower and there's a low grade cold war between powers(which hopefully stays cold, I hope there is never another world war) is that there will be less tolerance of monopolistic multinational companies. The Francis Fukuyama Milton Friedman vision of the future is going to go in the "dustbin of history". Greed is self defeating- a free market requires everyone to follow the rules, and in an international system with no dominant power there is no reason for greedy players to not cheat since nobody can tell them they can't. China doesn't want western corporations to have too much power in their domestic economy so they'll use protectionist policies to keep them out. The USA will inevitably do the same if it's a Chinese company growing too large here.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

It's not that there's not enough room. It's that there are not enough unemployed programmers and engineers (and probably that those who exist would have to be paid too much).

I don’t buy it. But, if that is indeed the case, that they’ve somehow exhausted their ability to pay for people to move there, and that the housing prices are too high, then basically the only answer is an enormous southern city with relatively cheap housing prices. That leaves basically Texas.

[casper]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

I would view Toronto has being in the running specifically because the tech sector there has had a big hole to fill with the demise of Nortel and RIM. amazon could swoop and in and take some of the workforce that was built up for those companies and which is now fallow.

I'm less convinced about the other reasons for toronto (internationalism, etc)

The only issue is Nortel was actually based in Ottawa. RIM is based in Waterloo.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I don’t buy it. But, if that is indeed the case, that they’ve somehow exhausted their ability to pay for people to move there, and that the housing prices are too high, then basically the only answer is an enormous southern city with relatively cheap housing prices. That leaves basically Texas.

Or a city that is relatively inexpensive and also big enough that 50,000 new white collar jobs won't change its dynamics too much. That is why Chicago and Philly both make sense.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I don’t buy it. But, if that is indeed the case, that they’ve somehow exhausted their ability to pay for people to move there, and that the housing prices are too high, then basically the only answer is an enormous southern city with relatively cheap housing prices. That leaves basically Texas.

Based on some stories I've read in the Seattle Times it sounds like the city council in Seattle is not business friendly at all and is doing next to nothing to increase the housing supply. I wonder how much of a factor this is in Amazon wanting to go elsewhere to expand.

[mhays]

Seattle is increasing the housing supply at a decent rate, but we're piling on huge costs. It's happening, but only because the economy is supercharged.

Some of the cost is fees for low-income housing, or onsite low income housing. That produces a few units but mostly it adds costs and resets everyone's (everyone's) rents to the new normal of development cost.

Also only 15% of the city (central 83.9 sm) allows urban-type development, and land in those areas is becoming really expensive.

And we make it next to impossible to build accessory units. And we cut way back on micro units. Both were the Council saying "f you" to the affordability concept.

[JManc]

Holy crap. Are we still going on about this? I think Amazon is going to settle on Whittier, Alaska. Far away from arguing SSP'ers as possible. Perhaps Guam or Saipan?

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by JoeMusashi

The level of jerking off of Amazon we are seeing is remarkable. Remember when people hated Walmart? Amazon is Walmart on steroids. You don't even need to get off your fat ass with Amazon unlike Walmart that at least required you to drive your car and walk around. Amazon is the company that we see in science fiction and dystopian entertainment. I hope they do build in Detroit or Chicago, Robocop style. Their power is so great that they, along with their partner in crime NYT, run a partisan news & propaganda wing.

And then we get to the people working there. I keep hearing about 'Amazon culture'. Holy fucking shit. Reminds me of the movie Metropolis, except it will be a bunch of progressive wunderkinds doing yoga in the clouds above the slaves. The whole Silicon Valley culture makes me cringe.

its all just class posturing. if its primarily a less sexy brand that caters to the poorer/rural population while engaging in race to the bottom consumerism and ruthless negotiating tactics its something to be mocked/derided/fretted over/protested. remember how so much of the back to the city movement revolved around turning away from big box consumerism, and returning to supporting local businesses as an idealistic notion? yea, that lasted long....

when its a popular brand among the neo liberal tech class, then its something to be glorified and all that other idealism around what community and social responsibility should be, well, as long as i get my toilet paper delivered by drone in 30 minutes...who cares how suppliers are treated, warehouse workers, what it does to local economies.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by JManc

Holy crap. Are we still going on about this? I think Amazon is going to settle on Whittier, Alaska. Far away from arguing SSP'ers as possible. Perhaps Guam or Saipan?

You can't be serious. This is the biggest local economic development event of the decade, or the multiple decades I've been watching. Especially with these average wages. This is really about 200,000 jobs if it achieves full buildout including my guess of a 3:1 multiplier.

[LMich]

The numbers just keep getting bigger. Before you know it, the claim will be half-a-million jobs. And by the time Amazon announces it's pick, they'll be the sole employer on planet earth. lol This is exactly what he's talking about. Amazon apparently sells Kool-Aid, too, go figure.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

its all just class posturing. if its primarily a less sexy brand that caters to the poorer/rural population while engaging in race to the bottom consumerism and ruthless negotiating tactics its something to be mocked/derided/fretted over/protested. remember how so much of the back to the city movement revolved around turning away from big box consumerism, and returning to supporting local businesses as an idealistic notion? yea, that lasted long....

when its a popular brand among the neo liberal tech class, then its something to be glorified and all that other idealism around what community and social responsibility should be, well, as long as i get my toilet paper delivered by drone in 30 minutes...who cares how suppliers are treated, warehouse workers, what it does to local economies.

Walmart and Amazon are not about retail. It is all about logistics and controlling the supply chain. Both companies are excellent at it.

The problem with the little independent retailer, is they need to buy at wholesale and those independent wholesales are slowing going to disappear.

If Walmart can skin the website Walmart.com or jets.com they can put sams club or Walmart on the store sign. They will use whatever banner on the consumer facing side generates the most revenue. It does not matter, they want to control the supply chain, once they do that they can force the small guys out of the game.

And, yes they are both evil, if you want to see small independent retailers make a go of it and a living wage for retail or delivery workers.

This competition is about what city will house the army of software developers that create all this software and the people that turns the knobs on the systems. They are probably making ok money.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JoeMusashi

The level of jerking off of Amazon we are seeing is remarkable. Remember when people hated Walmart? Amazon is Walmart on steroids. You don't even need to get off your fat ass with Amazon unlike Walmart that at least required you to drive your car and walk around. Amazon is the company that we see in science fiction and dystopian entertainment. I hope they do build in Detroit or Chicago, Robocop style. Their power is so great that they, along with their partner in crime NYT, run a partisan news & propaganda wing.

And then we get to the people working there. I keep hearing about 'Amazon culture'. Holy fucking shit. Reminds me of the movie Metropolis, except it will be a bunch of progressive wunderkinds doing yoga in the clouds above the slaves. The whole Silicon Valley culture makes me cringe.

Except Amazon actually employs a lot of skilled people with high salaries at HQ, and would attract an ecosystem around it that employs many more.

The warehouse staff are probably paid comparable wages to Wal-Mart's warehouse staff, and there are of course no low paid retail workers, but neither of these matter when talking about the attractiveness of winning a corporate headquarters.

[10023]

Originally Posted by bnk

Interesting read.


http://www.slate.com/articles/business/m...ose_the_contest_for_amazon_s_new_hq.html



Your City Will Lose the Contest for Amazon’s New HQ


...

This article unintentionally makes another point in support of the benefits to a winning city.

"Expensive" investment in transit infrastructure would not be a giveaway or subsidy to Amazon, but a boon to local residents. The fact that Amazon would demand infrastructure investment (and expect follow through) from its host city is one of the best reasons to root for one's city to be chosen.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JoeMusashi

The level of jerking off of Amazon we are seeing is remarkable. Remember when people hated Walmart? Amazon is Walmart on steroids. You don't even need to get off your fat ass with Amazon unlike Walmart that at least required you to drive your car and walk around.

Ironic you should mention Walmart becaue there are a lot of very smart people who think the duo of Walmart and Amazon are on their way to dominating American retail in a way that would have been unthinkable only recently.

You don't actually have to "get off your fat ass" to shop at Walmart. Walmart is really stepping up its online game. I'd say I now do maybe 20% of my online shopping at Walmart.com and more all the time. It has gotten so I never buy anythng from Amazon without first checkig to see if Walmart.com sells it and for how much because they are often cheaper than Amazon, ship just as fast and ship for free on order over $35 with no annual fee (like for Amazon prime).

And while Walmart is becoming real competition for Amazon, Amazon is opening (or buying in the case of Whole Foods) brick and mortar stores of its own.

And if you hate one, you should now hate the other for pretty much all the same reasons since they are coming to resemble the same business model from 2 different directions.

And finally, this may be yet another reason the Bay Area isn't in the race for Amazon's HQ2: Because Walmart runs its online presence, Walmart.com, out of San Bruno, CA

[tastybunns]

I think Cleveland would be a great fit for HQ2. Here are some of the things they considered requirements, and additional factors that Cleveland fulfills as a bidding city.
==========================================================

-Cleveland has plenty of low cost land for development. 500,000 + sq/ft requirement and up to 8,000,000 + sq/ft expansion/phase II.

-Has a metropolitan area population of around 2.077 million people.

-Cleveland is sustainable with increasing residential additions to the city, closing the ratio between business to resident.

-Cleveland also has a booming residential industry, going through a renaissance.

-They could find plenty of room to develop with the vast amount of surface lots.

-Plenty of Renovated buildings for both office and residential.

-Awesome regional public transport including light rail/metro from airport and Medical district, with countywide busing courtesy of the GCRTA.

-Two world class hospitals right down the road. Three major hospital systems within the city. University Hospital, Cleveland Clinic, and Metro Hospital.

-Amazon loves clean energy, Cleveland will be the first city in the world to be home to the first wind farm in fresh water over Lake Erie with cutting edge Ice Breaker foundations.

-Two public universities/colleges and three private universities/institutes. This specializes technical jobs within the vicinity of Cleveland Amazon needs.

-Great means of entertainment downtown with the second largest functioning theater district in the U.S. Three major sports teams, two minor teams as well. Including beach fronts, Wildlife reserves (Cleveland Metroparks), and bike paths. Science, History, and art museums. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Nearby 45 minute to an hour drive to Cedar Point, Cuyahoga Valley National Park, and Blossom Music Center Amphitheater.

-Lots of world renown restaurants and food. Not to mention a large market district in a neighborhood called "Ohio City".

-Major port city for large freight with connection to the Great lakes which means freight can easily be transported into Canada via great lakes up through Montreal, Toronto, and Ottowa. Can easily access rust belt cities such as Buffalo, Rochester, Erie, Sandusky, Toledo, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Green Bay. There are connections to the Mississippi through Canals built to the Ohio and Illinois and Michigan Canals.
Vast amount of Rail-Road connections to most surrounding Rust Belt Cities like Pittsburgh, Detroit, Columbus, Akron/Canton, and Toledo.

-Two major highways run from Cleveland to southern states I-77 to Columbia, SC and I-71 to Louisville, KY. Two from east to west one of which is a turnpike I-90 from Boston, MA to Seattle, WA and Ohio Tpke I-80 from New York, NY to San Francisco, CA with several highway connections around the city I-480, I-490, and I-271. All highways are easily accessible at least 2 miles from downtown

-At&t are planting fiber connections throughout the city

-Could be great business partners with Sherwin Williams, their HQ is right down the street where the iconic LeBron mural hangs.

==========================================================

Believe it or not Cleveland is a Central Hub with plenty of Wiggle Room. Plenty of room to develop, with plenty of accommodations city-wise and transport wise. Amazon has recently bought and committed to creating a fulfillment center just southeast of Cleveland in an abandoned mall. It seems like it would make the most sense to setup their HQ2 in Cleveland. They built themselves an empire in Seattle and they have outgrown their shells, a place with plenty of developmental room which lies so close together sounds like something Cleveland was destined for.

[10023]

^ Thanks, Cleveland Chamber of Commerce.

Sherwin Williams

[The ATX]

Amazon's corporate campus would also appreciate those canals allowing for a connection to the Mississippi and the Great Lakes transport destinations that include Erie and Rochester.

[James Bond Agent 007]

After a bit of discussion in the moderator's section it has been decided that this thread needs to be put on hold for a while. Some people here need to get out more. There's too much city-vs-city crap here, too much ridiculous boosterism, and so on. It will be re-opened at some later time, yet to be determined.

[James Bond Agent 007]

OK, today is the "due date" for Amazon's RFP so I'm re-opening this thread. Before we proceed, a few reminders:

1. Your city is almost certainly NOT going to get the HQ2 so you are wasting your time trying to defend it.
2. Jeff Bezos is NOT going to read your arguments in favor of your city so you are wasting your time trying to defend it.
3. Since the deadline has now passed, your city has already submitted its proposal, and so your defenses of your city have ZERO chance of making their way into your city's proposal.

Therefore the only sane thing to do at this point is to just chill out and wait for the results, sometime next year.

I'll inaugurate the re-opening of this thread with this:

Bids for Amazon's second headquarters are due Thursday — here are the cities in the running

Albany, New York
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Arlington County, Virginia
Atlanta
Atlantic City, New Jersey
Austin, Texas
Baltimore
Bayonne, New Jersey
Birmingham, Alabama
Boston
Bridgeport, Connecticut
Buffalo - Rochester, New York
Calgary, Alberta
Camden, New Jersey
Charlotte, North Carolina
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Columbia, Maryland
Columbus, Ohio
Concord, California
Dallas/Fort Worth
Danbury, Connecticut
Dayton, Ohio
Denver
Detroit
Edmonton, Alberta
El Paso, Texas
Fall River, Massachusetts
Fresno, California
Frisco, Texas
Gary, Indiana
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Hamilton, Ontario
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Hartford, Connecticut
Houston
Huntsville, Alabama
Indianapolis
Irvine, California
Kansas City, Missouri
Langford, British Columbia
Las Vegas
Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
London, Ontario
Long Island, New York
Los Angeles
Loudoun County, Virginia
Louisville, Kentucky
Madison, Wisconsin
Manchester, New Hampshire
Maumee, Ohio
Memphis, Tennessee
Miami
Milwaukee
Minneapolis - St. Paul
Mobile, Alabama
Montreal, Quebec
Nashville, Tennessee
New Bedford, Massachusetts
New Haven, Connecticut
New York
Newark, New Jersey
Oak Brook, Illinois
Oklahoma City - Tulsa
Ottawa, Ontario
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Pittsburgh
Portland, Oregon
Prince George's County, Maryland
Providence, Rhode Island
Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina
Richmond, Virginia
Sacramento, California
Salt Lake City
San Diego
San Francisco
San Jose, California
Seattle
Spokane, Washington
St. Louis
Stamford, Connecticut
Stonecrest, Georgia
Tacoma, Washington
Tampa - St. Petersburg, Florida
Toledo, Ohio
Toronto, Ontario
Tucson, Arizona
Vallejo, California
Vancouver, British Columbia
Virginia Beach, Virginia
Washington, D.C.
Wilmington, Delaware
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Worcester, Massachusetts

[Steely Dan]

i'm calling it.

it's totally going to Stonecrest, GA (wherever the fuck that is).

we can re-lock the thread now.