Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Posted in Provo thread, but this site has Provo as a good choice for Amazon. Guess they better go with CSA numbers instead of MSA.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-ar...r-amazons-second-headquarters-2017-09-07

Of course, Provo! Why didn't I think of that earlier? Now that PVU has commercial air service, all of the amazon execs. could take advantage the twice weekly Allegiant flights from Provo to Mesa, AZ or Oakland.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Always Sunny in SLC

I think things like low stress bike lanes are more important to the development of the city than almost anything else. Very underrated and underappreciated.

Huh? Not sure how you compute that as more important than say, reasonable zoning and height restrictions, land banking and a myriad of other issues. Those lanes screwed change-of-use possibilities for every commercial building in the affected area. They made the lanes and street too narrow for 2012 IFC (fire) to change use. So, it's exactly opposite from the most important thing. It screwed development for that entire strip. They should have only done it in the residential areas east of CBD. I realize that bike-friendly lanes are a freshman city planner wet dream but the implementation was botched and they are a nightmare from a development standpoint. Here is the poster child of the issue. This building might sit like this forever:

[airhero]

Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you comrade! You hit all the points why Salt Lake City lacks the political clout to land Amazon. The mayor is terrible at development, the state gov does not like her and most of salt lakes politicians. I worry a lot that Greg (stick up my butt) Hugh's will screw with all of this.

This is a project that the chamber of commerce and the LDS church really makes this happen on 400s. If anybody can kick Hughs to the curb it's them. Cox is also resonable and can see pros and cons, I suggest reaching out to him and tell him how bad Draper is for this.

I sent a respectful email to Cox last night, and even though I made a few points about why the Draper prison site and the point of mountain in general weren't ideal locations, it was mostly about how ideal the 400 S Main site was.

To an extent, I understand why state leaders want to develop the Draper prison site, and I'm sure it's been on their minds a lot, so when news of HQ2 hit they thought this could be the perfect opportunity. But when it comes down to it, the Draper site is not what Amazon is asking for, and the RFP makes that clear. Although they leave the possibility of a suburban campus open, they still want good transit options, good infrastructure with easy mobility, and proximity to the airport and the center of the urban area. Point of the mountain transit options are as minimal as can be, the infrastructure is lagging considerably--the roads are the most congested place along the Wasatch Front, the infrastructure around the prison for this kind of project isn't even in place yet (which is a problem with a lot of the sites cities around the country will be offering) and it's a considerable distance from the airport and urban center--often more than the times specified in the RFP, when there is congestion. They prefer something that is ready now for this kind of development, Draper isn't even close to ready.

Salt Lake's site not only checks the boxes, it fits everything so perfectly it would be terrible to go with a site that not only can't check several of the boxes, but the ones it does check still pale in comparison to Salt Lake's site.

Also, not sure why that marketwatch article specifies Provo as a great location and not Salt Lake. In the article, he states Omaha, Boise, and Madison don't fit the population criteria. Neither does Provo. The metro population is around 600,000. Even going by the CSA numbers, Amazon still specifies they want to be within 30 minutes from the center of the urban area. The center of the CSA is Salt Lake, and Provo is 45 minutes from Salt Lake on a good day.

I lived in Provo for a long time, and I grew to like it a lot, but it's not ideal for this at all. Salt Lake is a much better fit.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

You are so on and I think we all are on this forum. Salt lakes location is really the best for something like this. Plus google fiber could move into downtown and give 400s another perk. I think the market watch article is thinking along those lines with provo. Also think someone from BYU had a hand in writing that article.

I was talking to a friend that works in tech out east and he says Utah would be a top 5 choice for Amazon. The type of work force we have here is ideal. Stating the tech sector is mature to get the new offices going and also the sales workforce is really good in Utah too.

A lot of people think Amazon has already chosen a site but wants the best tax break insentives they can get and if that means showing off then this is how they are going to do it. This might get very political.

I also think SLC location would help elevate all the universities in Utah not just Utah and BYU.

[Liberty Wellsian]

I'm not sure that 10 acres is big enough. Amazon did say think big. They dont want to drive up property values and then have to purchase more.

What about Mark Miller and Ken Garf? A Trax station could be added on 700 S.

Or Rio Grande.

[Orlando]

Being a resident of Seattle, I have seen all the growth that Amazon has gone through. Most recently, they have built 3 35-story towers. I believe that if they put all their office space into office towers, it would probably be double that. So, 6 35-story towers at the prison site is absurd. Even 6 35-story towers in downtown SLC is overwhelming, and would definitely not fit at the 4th south main block. I really think SLC has a slim chance.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

I'm not sure that 10 acres is big enough. Amazon did say think big. They dont want to drive up property values and then have to purchase more.

What about Mark Miller and Ken Garf? A Trax station could be added on 700 S.

Or Rio Grande.

I think you're right about the block not being big enough. 8,000,000 sq ft is too much, and I don't think they'll be building 40-50 story buildings. I do think between the county lot and the LDS church lot they could easily fit over half that square footage in 8-25 story buildings. Maybe one bigger building on the county lot. And there are plenty of other parcels nearby that could work for later phases, though you're right about them driving up values of nearby parcels.

Rio Grande is fine but I don't think it's as attractive an area. It's further from downtown and despite it being right next to SL Central, I don't think it's as good transit-wise, except for people who would be riding Frontrunner. It's not located on arterial corridors. It's much better suited for residential use, maybe a small amount of office and other uses, but not for the kind Amazon is proposing.

Also, there are large portions of both blocks that are not under government/RDA ownership, only half of the south block is and not even 75 percent of the north block. The acreage of land they could offer up front probably would be marginally more than 400 S Main + county lot (assuming they work with the LDS Church). There are plenty of options to expand campus down the line by snatching up other parcels, but the same is true of 400 S Main, so I don't see any real advantage to Rio Grande over 400 S Main. If a deal could be worked out with owners of the Sheraton (who own 90% of the lot to the west) that would be great, but I don't see that happening so soon.

Also keep in mind that this RFP is for phase 1 (500,000+ sq ft.) I'm sure for the later phases, at this point they will be mostly concerned about being able to build nearby, which they can at 400 S Main. But I think it would be better if they knew they could get all the land they'll need up front.

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Being a resident of Seattle, I have seen all the growth that Amazon has gone through. Most recently, they have built 3 35-story towers. I believe that if they put all their office space into office towers, it would probably be double that. So, 6 35-story towers at the prison site is absurd. Even 6 35-story towers in downtown SLC is overwhelming, and would definitely not fit at the 4th south main block. I really think SLC has a slim chance.

Also as a residence from Seattle- I like your city and all but I do agree that there isn't much of a chance Salt Lake would get it. It may meet criteria but overall it would over whelm the city. Its simply just not that big. Yes I get they said ''over 1 million people" But do you honestly belief Salt Lake could absorb that? I'm not trying to be negative, I'm not airportvids But from the comment above, having to build 8 separate towers just to function may seem ludicrous in the eyes of Amazon. Your not going to like this but the only city in the mountain west I can actually see getting this is Denver. They meet expectations also and they are a much larger more vibrant city and very similar to Seattle in many aspects. Plus the airport, albeit its farther away, does offer much more than Salt Lakes airport and dwarfs it in size and flights and the transit throughout Denver is much larger.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by airhero

I think you're right about the block not being big enough. 8,000,000 sq ft is too much, and I don't think they'll be building 40-50 story buildings. I do think between the county lot and the LDS church lot they could easily fit over half that square footage in 8-25 story buildings. Maybe one bigger building on the county lot. And there are plenty of other parcels nearby that could work for later phases, though you're right about them driving up values of nearby parcels.

.

What are the closest RDA owned properties to the 400 S block? Is there anything worth adding?

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

Also as a residence from Seattle- I like your city and all but I do agree that there isn't much of a chance Salt Lake would get it. It may meet criteria but overall it would over whelm the city. Its simply just not that big. Yes I get they said ''over 1 million people" But do you honestly belief Salt Lake could absorb that? I'm not trying to be negative, I'm not airportvids But from the comment above, having to build 8 separate towers just to function may seem ludicrous in the eyes of Amazon. Your not going to like this but the only city in the mountain west I can actually see getting this is Denver. They meet expectations also and they are a much larger more vibrant city and very similar to Seattle in many aspects. Plus the airport, albeit its farther away, does offer much more than Salt Lakes airport and dwarfs it in size and flights and the transit throughout Denver is much larger.

I question whether there is a city in America that strictly fits all the criteria. I agree Denver from a culture point of view fits much better than SLC, but as far as not having the area in SLC for 8 towers, that problem still is an issue in downtown Denver. I don't know where they would fit a campus unless the parking lots adjacent to the Pepsi Center where used.

[bob rulz]

I would agree with the consensus that Salt Lake has a slim chance, and ZERO chance if they propose the Draper prison site. Amazon is an urban-oriented business, and I just don't think Salt Lake is urban enough in their eyes. Though there are some things about Salt Lake that would give it a leg up over similarly-sized metros.

Then again, an Amazon campus in the heart of downtown would be an incredible boon to Salt Lake, the likes of which we have NEVER seen, and I'm salivating at the thought of a huge campus filled with skyscrapers and an unprecedented surge in high-density housing that would accompany the announcement that would put this current apartment boom to shame.

So let us dream if we want to, just for a while, before our hopes and dreams are crushed beneath the giant boots of reality.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

Also as a residence from Seattle- I like your city and all but I do agree that there isn't much of a chance Salt Lake would get it. It may meet criteria but overall it would over whelm the city. Its simply just not that big. Yes I get they said ''over 1 million people" But do you honestly belief Salt Lake could absorb that? I'm not trying to be negative, I'm not airportvids But from the comment above, having to build 8 separate towers just to function may seem ludicrous in the eyes of Amazon. Your not going to like this but the only city in the mountain west I can actually see getting this is Denver. They meet expectations also and they are a much larger more vibrant city and very similar to Seattle in many aspects. Plus the airport, albeit its farther away, does offer much more than Salt Lakes airport and dwarfs it in size and flights and the transit throughout Denver is much larger.

For something like this it would pull from the population across the commuter rail line(around 30 miles north and south of SLC) That's more like 2.3 million. There are 4 Universities within that area and a 5th just outside it. The Wasatch Front already has an experienced tech labor force and it is growing. One thing SLC can guarantee that many other cities won't be able to is a work force that will continue to expand. Many cities are going to have a stagnating if not declining work force. That will put a strain on companies looking to grow. SLC on the other hand is going to increase the number of 18-24 year olds by a third before 2030(from 300k to 400k). Honestly I think that is a big reason why we have seen a lot of tech investment here thusfar.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Being a resident of Seattle, I have seen all the growth that Amazon has gone through. Most recently, they have built 3 35-story towers. I believe that if they put all their office space into office towers, it would probably be double that. So, 6 35-story towers at the prison site is absurd. Even 6 35-story towers in downtown SLC is overwhelming, and would definitely not fit at the 4th south main block. I really think SLC has a slim chance.

Actually between the county lot and 400 S Main, 6 35 story buildings would fit quite comfortably. The east block of City Creek has 4 highrises, an 18 story, 20 story, 22 story, and 27 story, and they only take up about 30 percent of the land area of the block. On the block west of the WF building, there is a 17 story building, a 22 story building, and two 26 story buildings, those take up a similar percentage of that block. There is room for 8 buildings of those sizes on those blocks. You could put 1 35 story building on the county lot, and 5 on the CCRI block, and still have plenty of room for a parking garage and plaza space. I don't think people realize how big these blocks are. Even Salt Lakers.

The problem is, 6 35 story buildings would, at best, be 5,500,000 sq ft. 8,000,000 sq ft is too much for that area, which is why they would need to expand to other parcels. But I'm sure they're willing to do that. They've done that slowly in Seattle. Why won't they do it in the new city? Especially when they can have half the land they need up front in such an ideal location.

Now the other point you made about it overwhelming the city--I really can't argue with that. The construction would be crazy, 50,000 jobs added, even over 15 years as the RFP says, are a lot to fill. Hiring would be a lot easier in a bigger city. I think they could get a good chunk of local talent but I believe they would need a lot of people from outside. That is doable, but I'm not sure if they want to do that.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

What are the closest RDA owned properties to the 400 S block? Is there anything worth adding?

I don't think RDA owns anything nearby. When I said there are nearby parcels, I meant there are lots of empty lots and underutilized lots, but they would need to be purchased from private landowners...

[grasscom]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

For something like this it would pull from the population across the commuter rail line(around 30 miles north and south of SLC) That's more like 2.3 million. There are 4 Universities within that area and a 5th just outside it. The Wasatch Front already has an experienced tech labor force and it is growing. One thing SLC can guarantee that many other cities won't be able to is a work force that will continue to expand. Many cities are going to have a stagnating if not declining work force. That will put a strain on companies looking to grow. SLC on the other hand is going to increase the number of 18-24 year olds by a third before 2030(from 300k to 400k). Honestly I think that is a big reason why we have seen a lot of tech investment here thusfar.

That sounds like a great plan for a company looking to grow over the next 20-30 years, but what about a company that looks like they are wanting to grow now? Amazon looks like they are in the grow now mode and Denver is currently one of the top 3 cities for millennials in America. I don't think Amazon being the company it is really cares too much about 30 years from now as they are in the moment now

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by airhero

Actually between the county lot and 400 S Main, 6 35 story buildings would fit quite comfortably. The east block of City Creek has 4 highrises, an 18 story, 20 story, 22 story, and 27 story, and they only take up about 30 percent of the land area of the block. On the block west of the WF building, there is a 17 story building, a 22 story building, and two 26 story buildings, those take up a similar percentage of that block. There is room for 8 buildings of those sizes on those blocks. You could put 1 35 story building on the county lot, and 5 on the CCRI block, and still have plenty of room for a parking garage and plaza space. I don't think people realize how big these blocks are. Even Salt Lakers.

The problem is, 6 35 story buildings would, at best, be 5,500,000 sq ft. 8,000,000 sq ft is too much for that area, which is why they would need to expand to other parcels. But I'm sure they're willing to do that. They've done that slowly in Seattle. Why won't they do it in the new city? Especially when they can have half the land they need up front in such an ideal location.

Now the other point you made about it overwhelming the city--I really can't argue with that. The construction would be crazy, 50,000 jobs added, even over 15 years as the RFP says, are a lot to fill. Hiring would be a lot easier in a bigger city. I think they could get a good chunk of local talent but I believe they would need a lot of people from outside. That is doable, but I'm not sure if they want to do that.

I would be interested to know how much difficulty Adobe has had recruiting talent to Utah. I know they had a slick recruitment video years ago that tried to dispel some myths about the area.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by grasscom

That sounds like a great plan for a company looking to grow over the next 20-30 years, but what about a company that looks like they are wanting to grow now? Amazon looks like they are in the grow now mode and Denver is currently one of the top 3 cities for millennials in America. I don't think Amazon being the company it is really cares too much about 30 years from now as they are in the moment now

uhh the median age in metro Denver is 6 years older than SLC right now.

Utah's median age is like 29, 31 SLC. Almost everyone here is a millenial.(exaggeration but not by much)

Honestly Denver isn't a bad choice but SLC wouldn't be either.

[grasscom]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

uhh the median age in metro Denver is 6 years older than SLC right now. Utah's median age is like 29. Almost everyone here is a millenial.(exaggeration but not by much)

Sorry let me clarify, its in the top 3 cities that millennials are attracted too, but I guess that doesn't mean they can all afford to move there. But if there were 50,000 jobs I'm sure all those millennials wanting to move there would take it in a heart beat. But we have a hard time getting millennials wanting/willing to move here unless they are Mormon or a complete outdoor nut. Otherwise we have a hard time attracting them as a city from an urban stand point.

I agree that Salt Lake is a wonderful fit from their criteria and location, I'm just skeptical I guess because with Denver in the mix we almost never have a chance for anything.

But I'm going to stop talking now because I don't want to be the one to start another negative downfall for this page! I do think that for cities in similar size to us we have to have the edge!

[ctobsl]

Here are the cities that match Amazon's wish list for its second headquarters


Salt Lake is on the bottom of the list.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-are...sh-list-for-its-second-headquarters.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/09/07/am...-a-new-silicon-valley-james-thomson.html

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by ctobsl

Here are the cities that match Amazon's wish list for its second headquarters


Salt Lake is on the bottom of the list.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-are...sh-list-for-its-second-headquarters.html

That list has something funky to it. I think both Denver and Salt Lake should both be much higher on that list, I think someone has let personal feelings get involved with this list.