O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[rocketphish]

So where's this environmentally significant land they talk about? It seems to me that it's currently a scrubby strip that runs between Corkstown Rd and the woods, which I don't think are being touched by this proposal.

They're just grasping at straws, I think, trying to come up with a new angle for not having the station at the most sensible location.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I will bear this comment in mind (a) the next 400 times the city of Ottawa blows off any suggestion of building urban transit in, you know, urban areas, and (b) when the city of Ottawa starts removing dozens of bus stops on Bank, Rideau, Montreal, Somerset-Wellington-Richmond, etc., in the name of "service improvements".

#thewholepointoftransit

Good! Many bus routes have stops too close together which adversely affects service by increasing travel times.

[roger1818]

The problem is, unless they expropriate some land to build Multi Use Pathways (MUPs) in Crystal Bay, the station will only be within reasonable walking distance of a handful of homes (the closest access street is about 600m away). At a minimum they would need a MUP from Corkstown to the bend in Cleadon Dr. Optimally it would be extended to Harlowe Cres. and Herrington Ct. Maybe even one to Solva Dr. With that, about half of Crystal Bay would be within an easy walk of the station.

None of those will ever be built though.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Good! Many bus routes have stops too close together which adversely affects service by increasing travel times.

I think Uhuniau was saying the opposite. I do agree with you and bus stops should never be less than 150m apart (between 200 and 300 m is better). I have seen stops that are less than 100m apart though. Once a stop is added, it is difficult to remove.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

So where's this environmentally significant land they talk about? It seems to me that it's currently a scrubby strip that runs between Corkstown Rd and the woods, which I don't think are being touched by this proposal.

They're just grasping at straws, I think, trying to come up with a new angle for not having the station at the most sensible location.

Yeah, this brand new McMansion built nearby out of nowhere is affecting the trees way more than the station. I'm still perplexed how it got approved. Thought it was Greenbelt or something.

[Horus]

Nothing says "pristine wilderness" like a woodlot next to a highway offramp

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Yeah, this brand new McMansion built nearby out of nowhere is affecting the trees way more than the station. I'm still perplexed how it got approved. Thought it was Greenbelt or something.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the owner of this house is somehow behind the protest (just a guess, I have no evidence). They are probably the only ones who will be negatively affected by the LRT but, judging by their massive garage, are unlikely to use it.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Moodie LRT station location irks Crystal Beach residents

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: September 5, 2017 | Last Updated: September 5, 2017 6:29 PM EDT

It looks like the station design has improved a bit since the last presentation.

Before both east and westbound buses needed to access the station via Cookstown.

Now it looks like they will make use of the new underpass they are building for eastbound buses to access the station from Moodie.

[zzptichka]

Received this newsletter from CA explaining their position in regards to Moodie station and after reading it I actually find it quite reasonable.

There has been a lot of sensational reporting on what transcribed at the Fedco (financial economic development committee) meeting yesterday. Unfortunately there were a lot of false facts especially the CBC report that said "Residents of Ottawa's Crystal Beach neighbourhood are "violently opposed" to the proposed location of the Moodie LRT station and want it moved."

Ian McComnnachie who presented the CBLCA position on the station location has written the following report. Please read it and balance it against the false news that the media reported.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update on Status of LRT to Moodie

We want to bring the community up to current speed with respect to the LRT project to Moodie and its approval process. This is of added importance given the media reports today and their rather significant deviation from reporting on what actually took place.
The Draft Environmental Project Report was presented by the Stage 2 LRT team to a committee of Ottawa City Council yesterday. The Finance and Economic Development Committee (FEDCO both received the document as well as taking a presentation on this project from city staff and hearing submissions from interested parties. Crystal Beach Lakeview Community Association was among those parties, with my submission representing the association, as well as our President, Peggy McGillivray, speaking to specific elements of the issue.

1. Where Does the CBLCA stand on location of the LRT Station?

You are aware of the results of the survey of the community that we took over the summer to gauge community preferences on a number of items related to this project. A majority of those who responded indicated a preference for a west of Moodie Drive location. That was only one of several findings from the survey. Since that survey, we have continued our efforts to learn more about the project and what is possible on issues such as locations for the station and impacts of those locations. We have known all along that each of the locations has positives and negatives. We have heard, and have chosen to accept as accurate that the Light Maintenance and Storage Facility positioned as it will be between Corkstown Rd and the 417 will cause one of two options for a west side station:

· The station on the west side would need to be where the current planned location for the LMSF with the LMSF repositioned to the south side of the 417. Estimated additional cost for this approach is about $50 Million. This money is currently unavailable to the city.

· The station would be built in a space currently occupied by Wesley Clover Parks, probably the entire segment where there is now 1 soccer pitch with plans for several other soccer pitches and volleyball courts. This would significantly undermine to goals for the Parks and is likely to be unacceptable to the NCC

With this in mind, in combination with other problematic aspects of the west side location, the Transportation Committee of CBLCA chose to accept in principle the east side location for the LRT Station as the better option. This depended, however, on obtaining from the city a list of assurances that certain conditions be met in the design, location, and construction of an East side location

2. What Have We Done to Achieve Those Conditions

The draft EPR was released last week on Thursday morning. It did not even contain a diagram of the LRT Station or its location. We received the diagram late Thursday afternoon. The document is also missing a number of important details around the station that we needed in order to accept the plan. Clearly, our preferred option was to request of the FEDCO committee to defer receipt of the document until such time as the missing pieces were filled in. We did this in the submission that I presented to committee. We knew, however, that it was unlikely for FEDCO to defer receiving of the document. A delay would create difficulties and additional costs to the project. All of these unbelievably short timelines are predicated on city contracting with construction companies involved in Stage 1 construction with immediate rollover into Stage 2. It saves the city money. As a result of our concerns and working with a Plan B, Peggy and I met with Councilor Taylor in advance of the committee meeting; I reviewed with Councilor Taylor the content of my submission and specifically the 7 conditions that we had with respect to an east side station. These conditions centre around protection of wetlands, Stillwater Creek and the greenbelt, detailed plans for connectivity of pedestrians and cyclists in the entire plan area, and a detailed traffic and safety study of the Corkstown /Moodie intersection given over 1000 buses using that intersection and 8500 DND employees, many of whom will choose to walk to DND from the station. The specific directions to city staff are as follows:

That staff continue to work with the Crystal Beach Lakeview Community to optimize all aspects of the Moodie Drive LRT station consistent with the following points:

1. That a detailed traffic study of the Crosstown Rd./Moodie Drive intersection be carried out consistent with complete streets philosophy and considering both a fully occupied DND facility and the anticipated 1000 buses entering into the LRT Station on a daily basis
   
2. That a full review of all aspects of cycling needs be carried out for the entire corridor including connectivity to Bells Corners on Moodie Drive over Highway 417
   
3. That a raised and lighted sidewalk be installed on the North side of Corkstown Road from Crystal Beach Drive to Moodie Drive
   
4. That an ECO design be used for the Moodie Station consistent with the greenspace location of the station and the Views and Vistas approach preferred by the NCC
   
5. That the wildlife corridor from Holly Acres Drive to Stillwater Creek damaged and disrupted by the BRT construction be restored to its former healthy state at the time of conversion to LRT
   
6. That optimal environmentally sound methods be utilized in construction of the Station to maximize stormwater absorption within the lands adjacent to Stillwater Creek and minimize pollutants from the Station complex
   
7. That when LRT is extended to Kanata, every effort be made to return lands no longer required for the Station to a natural state

To his credit, with rather short time to digest the information, Councilor Taylor during the question and answer portion of the agenda item read into the record verbatim the seven “asks” of staff. In all cases, the senior staff person overseeing the LRT, Chris Swail, indicated that he had no problem with complying with those items.

3. Next Steps

The draft EPR now goes to city council next week for acceptance. It is our hope to further clarify between now and then similar inclusion of “direction to staff” on these or similarly worded points of concern. We then continue to work with city staff, who have already committed to provide to the CBLCA all update information on the LRT Station as it develops. This is clearly a long-term issue for the community. It is indeed possible that the detailed design will bring forward problems that would cause the staff to relook at the west side option. We assume also that some of their plans going forward will cause us concern and that further discussion and, if necessary, revisions would need to take place.

The CBLCA commits to you that we will do our best to keep you informed and involved as we move through this multi-year process.

Ian McConnachie

Chair, Transportation Committee

[rocketphish]

This is laughable!

The author is making the bogus assumption that the only reason the station is being placed on the East side is that there are some expensive reasons why it can't be placed on the West side! As any sensible proponent of good transportation planning can immediately understand though, is that the station is actually being placed on the East side because that's where the ridership is.

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Received this newsletter from CA explaining their position in regards to Moodie station and after reading it I actually find it quite reasonable.

1. That a detailed traffic study of the Crosstown Rd./Moodie Drive intersection be carried out consistent with complete streets philosophy and considering both a fully occupied DND facility and the anticipated 1000 buses entering into the LRT Station on a daily basis
2. That a full review of all aspects of cycling needs be carried out for the entire corridor including connectivity to Bells Corners on Moodie Drive over Highway 417
3. That a raised and lighted sidewalk be installed on the North side of Corkstown Road from Crystal Beach Drive to Moodie Drive

1. I'm assuming the 1000 buses per day came in before they saw the ramp directly into the station for eastbound buses? Because that seems like an aggressively high number.
2. I don't really see why reviewing cycling across the highway and into Bells Corners should be a requirement for the people building the LRT
3. Why do you need a sidewalk when there's a MUP 5 metres to the north that follows the exact same alignment as Corkstown Road?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Yeah, this brand new McMansion built nearby out of nowhere is affecting the trees way more than the station. I'm still perplexed how it got approved. Thought it was Greenbelt or something.

Found this old report from 2004 relating to that site; apparently it was always privately owned. The committee refused the application; maybe it was overturned at the OMB?

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2004/10-27/pec/ACS2004-DEV-APR-0195

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

3. Why do you need a sidewalk when there's a MUP 5 metres to the north that follows the exact same alignment as Corkstown Road?

It's probably more about the stretch between the station and Crystal Beach drive. MUP is winding (adds 200m) and unlit. Even with Corkstown being pedestrian-hostile as it is right now, 90% of people still choose it over MUP walking on the shoulder. It definitely needs a sidewalk.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Good! Many bus routes have stops too close together which adversely affects service by increasing travel times.

Which would be easily remedied if OCTranspo would put artics on these major routes, and the operators would allow rear-door boarding, on a consistent basis. Getting over OCTranspo's anti-nearside-stop fetish would also help.

Forcing too many passengers onto 40-foot pieces of crap is what slows up the dwell times on busy downtown streets, not the location or frequency of stops.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think Uhuniau was saying the opposite. I do agree with you and bus stops should never be less than 150m apart (between 200 and 300 m is better). I have seen stops that are less than 100m apart though. Once a stop is added, it is difficult to remove.

Unless you live in Mathieu Fleury or Tobi Nussbaum's wards.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I have seen stops that are less than 100m apart though.

Examples?

I know of exactly one, and even I agree it should be (slightly) changed: the two eastbound stops on the same block of Rideau (one kitty-corner to Blawblaws, the other near the corner of King Edward). This is partly due to that same age-old OCTranspo bugaboo, their fetish against near-side stops.

Otherwise, can't think of any <100m spacings anywhere. A few in the 110-115m range, sure, but not less than 100.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

1. I'm assuming the 1000 buses per day came in before they saw the ramp directly into the station for eastbound buses? Because that seems like an aggressively high number.

I'm sure the residents are similar concerned about the impact of the - how many? - of their own personal automobiles that drive into, out of, and within their own community every day.

Right?

They have that concern, too, right?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

The author is making the bogus assumption that the only reason the station is being placed on the East side is that there are some expensive reasons why it can't be placed on the West side! As any sensible proponent of good transportation planning can immediately understand though, is that the station is actually being placed on the East side because that's where the ridership is.

The reality is there won't be significantly higher ridership on the west side because of the way the Crystal Bay community was built and there is no changing that any time soon. Also, by using that tack, it probably better appeases some of the NIMBYs in the CA's ear.

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

1. I'm assuming the 1000 buses per day came in before they saw the ramp directly into the station for eastbound buses? Because that seems like an aggressively high number.
2. I don't really see why reviewing cycling across the highway and into Bells Corners should be a requirement for the people building the LRT
3. Why do you need a sidewalk when there's a MUP 5 metres to the north that follows the exact same alignment as Corkstown Road?

1. Possibly, though they are still entering the station and all will need to leave the station via Corkstown Rd. Also buses from the North (DND) will need to use Corkstown Rd.
2. Because the station could provide a physical barrier for a future 417 crossing. Also, if they are disturbing the land now, might as well prepare it for a cycling crossing rather than having to disturb it again in whenever they get around to building the crossing.
3. Likely issues of safety and personal security. The MUP is dark, is surrounded by trees and has many blind corners. A well light sidewalk is visible from the road. Also the MUP entrance is 100m away from Crystal Beach Dr. and houses prevent it from being much closer.

I don't see any of the conditions as being unreasonable.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm sure the residents are similar concerned about the impact of the - how many? - of their own personal automobiles that drive into, out of, and within their own community every day.

Right?

They have that concern, too, right?

Exactly. Maybe they should tear up Corkstown Rd between Crystal Beach drive and the Abbott Point of Care driveway. That way any bus traffic on the western part of Corkstown Rd. won't affect them.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Examples?

I know of exactly one, and even I agree it should be (slightly) changed: the two eastbound stops on the same block of Rideau (one kitty-corner to Blawblaws, the other near the corner of King Edward). This is partly due to that same age-old OCTranspo bugaboo, their fetish against near-side stops.

Otherwise, can't think of any <100m spacings anywhere. A few in the 110-115m range, sure, but not less than 100.

Looks like the example I had has been fixed and the only ones I can find are in the 130m range. Still way too close IMHO. The absolute minimum should be 200m unless they are serving different routes.