PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Leviathant

You're going to need quite the imagination to think THAT is where SEPTA would build a new train station.

Just like you need a healthy imagination to consider the houses in Poplar to be "—-boxes."

I lived in one of those "—-boxes" for years, right at 12th and Poplar - it was actually really nice. Maybe you don't like the style, but I had nice hardwood floor, more than ample power, with plenty of outlets in each room. When we bought the house, it had rental-grade kitchen cabinets, but we ripped them out and installed nice hardwood cabinetry. The only issue we had, really, was taking the time to mow our lawn. The central air & heat was effective and efficient, although by the mid-2000s, we did end up having to replace the fan in the condensing unit outside. I think I spent about $200 total and was able to do that work myself. Not bad for a, what, 15 year old HVAC system. We re-painted the porch about three years ago.

Most of the people in the neighborhood had replaced their shingle roofs by the time we'd moved in. Our was in decent enough shape that it wasn't really a bother. We eventually turned most of our back yard into a garden - with a shed for our tools and stuff. 3 bedrooms, 1300sqft, parking for two cars, modern construction and utlities, a fenced backyard, big tree-lined sidewalks, and friendly neighbors, a couple of blocks from the Broad Street Line? I felt like I was spoiled, but I didn't pay out the nose for the privilege.

You know what else? I couldn't hear my nextdoor neighbor through the walls. In fact, I would practice drumming in the basement, and several times over the years, asked if they were cool with it. "We can barely hear anything at all coming through."

But sure, call them —-boxes. Keep proclaiming this idea that the neighborhood is not improving. Have I seen you at *any* West Poplar neighborhood meetup? Were you ever there during the quarterly cleanups in Carrie Turner park? Or are you just making sweeping generalizations based on classist assumptions?

I mean, if you're okay with courting controversy, it sure seems to me like the people getting upset about Nehemiah Poplar seem to have this notion that market forces will force lower-middle-class African-American homeowners out of a really great spot before they get too accustomed to comfortable living. So yeah, keep telling people they're PHA —-boxes that need to be torn down. It's one thing to complain about the architectural choices made in the mid-90s, but your specific disgust at this particular neighborhood telegraphs something else entirely.

Are we done being controversial?

Stop turning this racial... it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has absolutely nothing to do with the people living in the neighborhood. It has EVERYTHING to do with the style of development in the core of the city.

I have no problem with the built form of Hawthorne, or who the hell lives there, because it passes as a mostly urban, intact city street.

These are nice houses, but they're just not the development we want in the core of the city. These would be nice in Malvern, or Bensalem, or even Northeast or Northwest Philadelphia for crying out loud. One mile from City Hall? Unacceptable. I couldn't imagine this kind of development one mile from Houses of Parliment in London, or City Hall in NYC.

Again, if PHA could redevelop the area similar to what they're doing in Sharswood, then why not?? Build more urban style homes the likes of Hawthorne. Build mixed use developments, and mix in low income/subsidized housing with market rate housing. Build a commercial corridor along 13th Street to pair with Broad Street. Build up Girard St. New SEPTA Regional Rail station at Girard.

The possibilities are endless, and this thought of not doing something just because is not a world class, forward thinking 21st century mentality.

We're not talking tomorrow... we're talking 10-20 years down the road. Stop being so sensitive.

Philadelphia has to continue to think ahead to the future. We have to continue to do everything we can to build a better city. If not, we're going to continue to get left behind by DC, Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, Austin, Seattle, etc... in many ways, we already are.

[El Duderino]

^i'm pretty sure sharswood is not the reason why philly isn't held in the same esteem as those other cities you've mentioned.

not to stir the pot, but using the phrase "these people" (your exact words from a previous post) when talking about an established community in relation to completely redeveloping a neighborhood may elicit a strong response; be careful who you call sensitive.

[FtGreeneNY]

What he said... These posts can very easily devolve into classist fantasies that conveniently ignore the fact that we're often talking about real people's homes and neighborhoods.

My Dad ran the East Poplar CDC when I was growing up and I'm sure some of these same folks would bulldoze the house I grew up in on Hoffman Place and the others like it there and on Marshall Place, despite the fact that those homes have provided safe and solid housing for middle-class, mostly African-American families for decades.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

^i'm pretty sure sharswood is not the reason why philly isn't held in the same esteem as those other cities you've mentioned.

not to stir the pot, but using the phrase "these people" (your exact words from a previous post) when talking about an established community in relation to completely redeveloping a neighborhood may elicit a strong response; be careful who you call sensitive.

Lol... yes, people are being sensitive. I never once stated anybody had to move or be relocated.

PHA redeveloped a block of outdated housing near Temple.... and replaced it with shiney, new, quasi-urban homes. I'm sure anybody who had to move for this project was offered first dibs at the new product. Now look what they're building right across the street:
https://philly.curbed.com/2017/8/2/16075992/affordable-housing-philadelphia-design-review-recap

I'm sure we would rather this kind of smart, urban development in Poplar than what is there now. If PHA is doing this for the Norris Apartments, why not Poplar??

What's wrong with replacing outdated product with new development?

It's happening now in many rental buildings across the city which are being renovated. People are being forced to move out of their homes (rental apartments) so they can be updated.

That is part of what this entire forum is about... no? It's about development in cities. We constantly praise new development all throughout the city... a lot of which may displace people who currently live in a home, in a building, etc... that is going to be knocked down and replaced with a taller building.

What's wrong with talking about the redevelopment of a neighborhood? A suburban style neighborhood close to the Center of the City no doubt.

Nobody has to be forced to move. People can sell their houses willingly if they want to move, or their relatives can sell the houses as they get older and move away or pass on.

The PHA housing can be strategically developed in a way that would minimize displacement, and would offer newer, more modern and urban product.

We're talking about the gradual redevelopment of a neighborhood over 10-20-30 years... 10-20-30 years from now. Most of us won't even by alive by then.

Cities are constantly changing... that's a good thing. Philadelphia should be constantly changing. We can't expect this neighborhood to stay low-density, suburban sprawl, 1-mile from City Hall forever.

[jjv007]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Stop turning this racial... it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has absolutely nothing to do with the people living in the neighborhood. It has EVERYTHING to do with the style of development in the core of the city.

I have no problem with the built form of Hawthorne, or who the hell lives there, because it passes as a mostly urban, intact city street.

These are nice houses, but they're just not the development we want in the core of the city. These would be nice in Malvern, or Bensalem, or even Northeast or Northwest Philadelphia for crying out loud. One mile from City Hall? Unacceptable. I couldn't imagine this kind of development one mile from Houses of Parliment in London, or City Hall in NYC.

Again, if PHA could redevelop the area similar to what they're doing in Sharswood, then why not?? Build more urban style homes the likes of Hawthorne. Build mixed use developments, and mix in low income/subsidized housing with market rate housing. Build a commercial corridor along 13th Street to pair with Broad Street. Build up Girard St. New SEPTA Regional Rail station at Girard.

The possibilities are endless, and this thought of not doing something just because is not a world class, forward thinking 21st century mentality.

We're not talking tomorrow... we're talking 10-20 years down the road. Stop being so sensitive.

Philadelphia has to continue to think ahead to the future. We have to continue to do everything we can to build a better city. If not, we're going to continue to get left behind by DC, Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, Austin, Seattle, etc... in many ways, we already are.

Very well said. Sad that so many in this city think so parochially.

[1487]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Stop turning this racial... it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has absolutely nothing to do with the people living in the neighborhood. It has EVERYTHING to do with the style of development in the core of the city.

I have no problem with the built form of Hawthorne, or who the hell lives there, because it passes as a mostly urban, intact city street.

These are nice houses, but they're just not the development we want in the core of the city. These would be nice in Malvern, or Bensalem, or even Northeast or Northwest Philadelphia for crying out loud. One mile from City Hall? Unacceptable. I couldn't imagine this kind of development one mile from Houses of Parliment in London, or City Hall in NYC.

Again, if PHA could redevelop the area similar to what they're doing in Sharswood, then why not?? Build more urban style homes the likes of Hawthorne. Build mixed use developments, and mix in low income/subsidized housing with market rate housing. Build a commercial corridor along 13th Street to pair with Broad Street. Build up Girard St. New SEPTA Regional Rail station at Girard.

The possibilities are endless, and this thought of not doing something just because is not a world class, forward thinking 21st century mentality.

We're not talking tomorrow... we're talking 10-20 years down the road. Stop being so sensitive.

Philadelphia has to continue to think ahead to the future. We have to continue to do everything we can to build a better city. If not, we're going to continue to get left behind by DC, Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, Austin, Seattle, etc... in many ways, we already are.

do you understand these areas were seen as undesirable for market rate development as recently as 5 years ago? When they redid this area they were trying to make sure it didn't look like pubic housing and 99% of folks likely would agree what is there now is far less depressing than what was there before. You act like all the areas between City Hall and Poplar street are densely packed and popping with development. We don't even have consistent development between Vine and Spring Garden east of broad. THAT needs to be the area of focus for the next decade. Not these houses.

The idea that these houses are key to the future of Philadelphia's reputation on the national or world stage is bizarre and baseless. You are trying to solve a "problem" that doesn't exist. If development pressure and prices rise to the point that these homes are purchased by developers in 20 years so be it. We are a long way from that being on the table. Just east of here there are still countless vacant lots that need to be filled.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by 1487

do you understand these areas were seen as undesirable for market rate development as recently as 5 years ago? When they redid this area they were trying to make sure it didn't look like pubic housing and 99% of folks likely would agree what is there now is far less depressing than what was there before. You act like all the areas between City Hall and Poplar street are densely packed and popping with development. We don't even have consistent development between Vine and Spring Garden east of broad. THAT needs to be the area of focus for the next decade. Not these houses.

The idea that these houses are key to the future of Philadelphia's reputation on the national or world stage is bizarre and baseless. You are trying to solve a "problem" that doesn't exist. If development pressure and prices rise to the point that these homes are purchased by developers in 20 years so be it. We are a long way from that being on the table. Just east of here there are still countless vacant lots that need to be filled.

Dude... lol. I'm not saying let's knock the damn neighborhood down tomorrow. I'm saying in a hypothetical future, 20 years from now, if Philadelphia keeps growing in people or and jobs and continues on its positive, upward trajectory. If every neighborhood around this - Francisville, North Broad, Callowhill/Loft District, Speing Arts, Etc. - is built out. Do we continue to just accept this form of suburban development this close to city hall? Or does the neighborhood get redeveloped into a vibrant, mixed-use, urban area?

[summersm343]

Civic Design Review committee approves Penn 3601 Spruce



http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/09/0...committee-approves-penn-dranoff-projects

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Also you kind of just answered your own question -- owners (or owners' heirs) cashing out to developers will probably drive change in the area.

This. Once the PHA deed ends a developer can swoop in (presuming the 'hood to the south continues to become more desirable), buy two corner properties - and then build 8 row-homes on the same footprint lots. So long as a % of the development is low-income housing, the rest could be market rate. Increase the density, same # of units for low-income families, increase the tax-base, etc.

[summersm343]

CDR asks 4200 Monument to come back



Read more here:
http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/09/0...committee-approves-penn-dranoff-projects

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This. Once the PHA deed ends a developer can swoop in (presuming the 'hood to the south continues to become more desirable), buy two corner properties - and then build 8 row-homes on the same footprint lots. So long as a % of the development is low-income housing, the rest could be market rate. Increase the density, same # of units for low-income families, increase the tax-base, etc.

Exactly. Every single person living in this neighborhood could also stay in the neighborhood. You can probably fit every single one of these housing units into 3 blocks in a more densely built, urban, mixed-use neighborhood.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Dude... lol. I'm not saying let's knock the damn neighborhood down tomorrow. I'm saying in a hypothetical future, 20 years from now, if Philadelphia keeps growing in people or and jobs and continues on its positive, upward trajectory. If every neighborhood around this - Francisville, North Broad, Callowhill/Loft District, Speing Arts, Etc. - is built out. Do we continue to just accept this form of suburban development this close to city hall? Or does the neighborhood get redeveloped into a vibrant, mixed-use, urban area?

Agreed that this, or any, suburban type development in a historic urban area was a big mistake and should not be repeated. But how much of the area you're talking about is actually controlled by PHA? If these houses/homes that both you and I think aren't appropriate are privately owned then market forces along with zoning will rule the day. But if they are PHA buildings/homes then like I think you're saying, they probably won't last that long and in 20 or 30 years they'll be toast.
Of course if all the surrounding areas vastly improve then there might be pressure for PHA to maintain these wrongly designed homes, then it will be interesting to see how that plays out. But in any case, there are a lot of "ifs", and a big time window in play here.

What I don't get, and maybe for you its not a major part, but what's the big deal about this or that being or not being some kind of example of world class city? I don't want Philly to be London or Paris or NYC. I want it to be Philly with all its bumps and bruises, and beauty.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Agreed that this, or any, suburban type development in a historic urban area was a big mistake and should not be repeated. But how much of the area you're talking about is actually controlled by PHA? If these houses/homes that both you and I think aren't appropriate are privately owned then market forces along with zoning will rule the day. But if they are PHA buildings/homes then like I think you're saying, they probably won't last that long and in 20 or 30 years they'll be toast.
Of course if all the surrounding areas vastly improve then there might be pressure for PHA to maintain these wrongly designed homes, then it will be interesting to see how that plays out. But in any case, there are a lot of "ifs", and a big time window in play here.

What I don't get, and maybe for you its not a major part, but what's the big deal about this or that being or not being some kind of example of world class city? I don't want Philly to be London or Paris or NYC. I want it to be Philly with all its bumps and bruises, and beauty.

Apparently everything east of 12th Street is PHA owned. Everything west of 12th Street is owned privately.

I'm not saying Philly should be NYC or London, just that we should strive to continue to build urban, vibrant mixed use neighborhoods surrounding Center City.... not leafy, green, sleepy suburban neighborhoods.

[summersm343]

Philadelphia port sees continued growth in imports

Read more here:
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/tr...ontinued-growth-in-imports-20170906.html

[1487]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Dude... lol. I'm not saying let's knock the damn neighborhood down tomorrow. I'm saying in a hypothetical future, 20 years from now, if Philadelphia keeps growing in people or and jobs and continues on its positive, upward trajectory. If every neighborhood around this - Francisville, North Broad, Callowhill/Loft District, Speing Arts, Etc. - is built out. Do we continue to just accept this form of suburban development this close to city hall? Or does the neighborhood get redeveloped into a vibrant, mixed-use, urban area?

I can accept it if it means we get denser development to the south. As I've stated before- lots of North Philly is low density by default after 100k+ people moved out over 50 years. Lot of north philly is lacking an in tact urban fabric. So the notion that this pocket is vastly different from other parts of this area or that it alone is the hole the donut is pretty crazy.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by 1487

I can accept it if it means we get denser development to the south. As I've stated before- lots of North Philly is low density by default after 100k+ people moved out over 50 years. Lot of north philly is lacking an in tact urban fabric. So the notion that this pocket is vastly different from other parts of this area or that it alone is the hole the donut is pretty crazy.

I don't care about the rest of North Philly right now, or how it's built. I care about this area 1 mile from City Hall. I understand WHY it was built, but can/should we redevelop the area in the future if Lower North Philly continues on it's upward trajectory, and every neighborhood surrounding this gets built out?

I'm sure you'll continue to argue against every little thing I say though, so it's rather pointless talking to you.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by 1487

I can accept it if it means we get denser development to the south. As I've stated before- lots of North Philly is low density by default after 100k+ people moved out over 50 years. Lot of north philly is lacking an in tact urban fabric. So the notion that this pocket is vastly different from other parts of this area or that it alone is the hole the donut is pretty crazy.

urban fabric, what means you?

If people want the suburbs, fine, move to the suburbs.

[summersm343]

Field Operations, OLIN, West 8 among finalists to redesign Philly airport landscape

Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2017/9/6/16261...t-landscape-design-competition-finalists

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 1487

I can accept it if it means we get denser development to the south. As I've stated before- lots of North Philly is low density by default after 100k+ people moved out over 50 years. Lot of north philly is lacking an in tact urban fabric. So the notion that this pocket is vastly different from other parts of this area or that it alone is the hole the donut is pretty crazy.

Lots of North Philly is grassy lots as once-existing residencies were demolished or fell apart. Walk around Sharswood and you'll see what I mean. No reason to maintain that either. And we're not. There's lots of new development filling in these vacant lots now. Appropriately urban development.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Whether it's faux suburbia in N. Philly or failure to fully cap the VSE at Logan Square, I don't understand the notion that wishing for something better is somehow a negation of the good that has been achieved. Asking public agencies to think a little bigger (which doesn't necessarily cost more in the long run) is not too much to ask.