Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

The re-gauging of the height limit will happen one day, but not until a critical mass of saturation in the downtown built structure becomes fact.

Hasn't made a lick of a difference in Vancouver. Downtown is nearly built out and the affordability crisis is as bad as ever yet the view cones are actually being strengthened...

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

This height limit thing has been debated ever since skyscraper forums and the internet have been in existence.

But one argument often gets forgotten: even with our current height limit, not a single developer has sought to reach it since 1992, and the IBM and Le 1000 were hardly sound business propositions (high volume of empty floor space since 1992 in both towers).

The re-gauging of the height limit will happen one day, but not until a critical mass of saturation in the downtown built structure becomes fact.

As of now there is no need to build really high because there is no shortage of empty / parking lots to build on or old buildings to raze / re-develop.

ALSO: There is no culture of building taller for the sake of building taller here in Montreal.

I think Montrealers would love to steal some thunder from Toronto by having the tallest building in the country. It's not a priority I'm sure, but look how excited Edmontonians are to have the tallest building in the west under construction.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I think Montrealers would love to steal some thunder from Toronto by having the tallest building in the country. It's not a priority I'm sure, but look how excited Edmontonians are to have the tallest building in the west under construction.

I don't think they care that much. Montréalers don't care about how many tall buildings there are in the downtown core. Tall buildings is not what brings people downtown.
The new Champlain bridge and the new Turcot will have a much greater impact on people's mind than what a 300m building could bring. Even the REM will be more important.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I think Montrealers would love to steal some thunder from Toronto by having the tallest building in the country. It's not a priority I'm sure, but look how excited Edmontonians are to have the tallest building in the west under construction.

No, really, they wouldn't. This is no hyperbole when I tell you that Montrealers not only don't care about tall buildings, they usually dislike them.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

No, really, they wouldn't. This is no hyperbole when I tell you that Montrealers not only don't care about tall buildings, they usually dislike them.

If anything I'd say this is the dominant perspective among "regular" people across Canada, if not the world.

[Calgarian]

Interesting, I know most people don't care about highrises like we do here, but so many people in so many cities get excited about having a new tallest, or having bragging rights compared to a rival city (Chicago and NYC come to mind). Montreal is more of a cultural city I guess though, that's where a lot of civic pride seems to come from. Need to make a visit there sometime soon, never really had a chance to appreciate that city as an adult.

Calgary is an interesting comparison to Montreal as a lot of people here are interested in skyscrapers (though not on the SSP level, we're special lol). I guess that has helped us set ourselves apart from our peers as we hit well above our weight in this context and has made this city feel larger than it really is for the past 40 or so years. The cultural aspects are doing quite well now, so that helps the city feel more like the city it appears to be when looking at the fairly large skyline we have.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

If anything I'd say this is the dominant perspective among "regular" people across Canada, if not the world.

So why are cities all across the world building highrises in massive numbers? There are cities where highrises are reviled (San Francisco comes to mind), though I don't know if I would say that is the norm, especially looking at how cities like Shanghai and Dubai seem to be building massive skyscrapers for the sake of building skyscrapers (as opposed to satisfying a requirement for residential or commercial space).

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

This height limit thing has been debated ever since skyscraper forums and the internet have been in existence.

But one argument often gets forgotten: even with our current height limit, not a single developer has sought to reach it since 1992, and the IBM and Le 1000 were hardly sound business propositions (high volume of empty floor space since 1992 in both towers).

The re-gauging of the height limit will happen one day, but not until a critical mass of saturation in the downtown built structure becomes fact.

As of now there is no need to build really high because there is no shortage of empty / parking lots to build on or old buildings to raze / re-develop.

ALSO: There is no culture of building taller for the sake of building taller here in Montreal.

The only developer so far is Cadillac Fairview. Although 750 peel is gonna be 180M (as of now) 600 peel looks like 3x 200M from the last renders. Also speaking to people I know in the business, C.F is dedicated to building as high as possible, especially since there's demand for it downtown. The only issue is that it's only in one little area, and although it's pretty impressive, it would be nice for the Western and Eastern portions to start building up (which it will, but at a slow pace).

[logan5]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

I don't think they care that much. Montréalers don't care about how many tall buildings there are in the downtown core. Tall buildings is not what brings people downtown.
The new Champlain bridge and the new Turcot will have a much greater impact on people's mind than what a 300m building could bring. Even the REM will be more important.

If it's a residential tower, people care about tall buildings, ie nice view, prestige, etc. Not sure how much condos are selling for in Montreal right now, but it seems inevitable that conditions will hit a point that makes a 230 meter residential tower feasible. There seems to be a condo boom going on in Montreal right now so those 200m plus towers are probly not that far off.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Djesus777

The only developer so far is Cadillac Fairview. Although 750 peel is gonna be 180M (as of now) 600 peel looks like 3x 200M from the last renders. Also speaking to people I know in the business, C.F is dedicated to building as high as possible, especially since there's demand for it downtown. The only issue is that it's only in one little area, and although it's pretty impressive, it would be nice for the Western and Eastern portions to start building up (which it will, but at a slow pace).

I think a bit of a cone shape to the skyline is good thing

Originally Posted by logan5

If it's a residential tower, people care about tall buildings, ie nice view, prestige, etc. Not sure how much condos are selling for in Montreal right now, but it seems inevitable that conditions will hit a point that makes a 230 meter residential tower feasible. There seems to be a condo boom going on in Montreal right now so those 200m plus towers are probly not that far off.

What's the demand for office space like? mixed use towers seem to make a lot of sense, if someone were to try and go tall that would be a good way to do it.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by logan5

If it's a residential tower, people care about tall buildings, ie nice view, prestige, etc. Not sure how much condos are selling for in Montreal right now, but it seems inevitable that conditions will hit a point that makes a 230 meter residential tower feasible. There seems to be a condo boom going on in Montreal right now so those 200m plus towers are probly not that far off.

the condo boom is not for tall towers. if you look at the stats , much of the condos are low-rise and mid-rise.

Montréal, the second-largest CMA in Canada, ranked 12th in the same list. In this CMA, 8.8% of dwellings were in high-rises; apartment buildings that have fewer than five storeys were the most common, with 4 in 10 dwellings being in low-rise apartments.

41.2% ­} Apartments in a building that has fewer than five storeys

Toronto only 10%

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016005/98-200-x2016005-eng.cfm

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

the condo boom is not for tall towers. if you look at the stats , much of the condos are low-rise and mid-rise.

That's the norm here too, there are a lot of highrises going up, but there are a massive number of low and midrise going up in all parts of the city.

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I think a bit of a cone shape to the skyline is good thing



What's the demand for office space like? mixed use towers seem to make a lot of sense, if someone were to try and go tall that would be a good way to do it.

There's demand for office space, the only thing is most companies here renovate older buildings. For downtown office space, there's a good amount of proposals, at least 6-7 buildings but so far nothing. It's just timing really, 2015 we got Deloitte, this year we got Manulife, NFB, so I'm gonna say the next office building to start will be 2018/19, just a hunch. Maybe we'll get caught off guard and one will start sooner, or we won't get anything for 10 years, it depends on tenants wanting class A office space or fully renovated buildings.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by logan5

If it's a residential tower, people care about tall buildings, ie nice view, prestige, etc. Not sure how much condos are selling for in Montreal right now, but it seems inevitable that conditions will hit a point that makes a 230 meter residential tower feasible. There seems to be a condo boom going on in Montreal right now so those 200m plus towers are probly not that far off.

You don't know how Montreal developers operate. Mtl developers are notoriously cheap. If they think they need to build 60 floors of condo, they'll build 2 X 30 floors instead and cut costs.

Currently, the market is red hot in Montreal, and the tallest condo tower we have planned doesn't even touch 170m.

Also, Montreal developers DO build really tall buildings, Like Candarel's Aura in TO for example.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

That's the norm here too, there are a lot of highrises going up, but there are a massive number of low and midrise going up in all parts of the city.

I think the major difference between Toronto and Montréal is how their suburbs develops. In Montréal's context, most of the suburbs don't have tall towers, they don't exist outside the island, maybe a few in Laval, but

Laval clamps down on multi-storey condo construction

Laval Mayor Marc Demers plans to lay out major restrictions on the new construction of residential condo towers between six and 25 storeys on 82 per cent of the city`s territory.

"A lot of cities in Canada are now starting to turn to policies, meant to encourage the 'missing middle,' [like] low-rise apartment buildings," he said.

"We don't see enough of that being developed."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/laval-mayor-demers-condo-towers-1.4240190

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

You don't know how Montreal developers operate. Mtl developers are notoriously cheap. If they think they need to build 60 floors of condo, they'll build 2 X 30 floors instead and cut costs.

Currently, the market is red hot in Montreal, and the tallest condo tower we have planned doesn't even touch 170m.

Also, Montreal developers DO build really tall buildings, Like Candarel's Aura in TO for example.

maybe they have plans to build something higher later and they don't want to undercut their own projects. that's why you have TDC2 and TDC3 , the same height. the towers south of 750 Peel have the potential to be higher than 170m.

[Rico Rommheim]

Exactly. CF, a Toronto-based company has an opportunity to build 6 220m towers on the lands they currently hold, and yet nothing above 170-180m will be built on these sites.

And who cares really?

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Exactly. CF, a Toronto-based company has an opportunity to build 6 220m towers on the lands they currently hold, and yet nothing above 170-180m will be built on these sites.

And who cares really?

Well, they did ask for a 210M limit and got granted 170M, that said from last I heard 600 peel was/is planned at 3X 200-210M (if they get their way that is). They want to build up, and the city gave them 170 instead of 210. Who knows, maybe if the city gave them 210M, they would've added more units in TDC2 to make it taller. Then there are other developers, my families client is one of the people behind + an investor of paramount/world centre in Miami, she and her team have serious interest in MTL and they love building up, so hopefully, they come here *crossing fingers*

[LeftCoaster]

^ CF built to the height the market dictated, not the max allowable.

Originally Posted by Djesus777

There's demand for office space, the only thing is most companies here renovate older buildings. For downtown office space, there's a good amount of proposals, at least 6-7 buildings but so far nothing. It's just timing really, 2015 we got Deloitte, this year we got Manulife, NFB, so I'm gonna say the next office building to start will be 2018/19, just a hunch. Maybe we'll get caught off guard and one will start sooner, or we won't get anything for 10 years, it depends on tenants wanting class A office space or fully renovated buildings.

The Montreal market is seeing very strong absorption right now but it was starting from a high vacancy rate so until the rate dips below 10 in total or around 8 in the financial core it's unlikely another tower will break ground. The good thing is the vacancy rate is dropping right now so those market conditions may be here sooner rather than later.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

^ CF built to the height the market dictated, not the max allowable.



The Montreal market is seeing very strong absorption right now but it was starting from a high vacancy rate so until the rate dips below 10 in total or around 8 in the financial core it's unlikely another tower will break ground. The good thing is the vacancy rate is dropping right now so those market conditions may be here sooner rather than later.

the TDC1 and the TDC2 got sold out very fast.

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

the TDC1 and the TDC2 got sold out very fast.

Yup, and from what I heard last time I talked to people involved with the project, TDC3 will go on sale mid next year. That one will sell out faster if anything, there are fewer units. We need more developers like C.F, the demand is there now in MTL, we just need developers with balls.