PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[1487]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

No.

The apathy is pretty endemic here. And I really could care less about the power plants and refineries. That shows me that we're a city where stuff is still made; which I think is cool.

Nonetheless. The minute you step out of Center City, every single tree pit has 3 feet of weeds in it. Trash is everywhere. Every high way on ramp / off ramp looks like the grass hasn't been cut in 17 years. It's like there is literally no attention paid, none, to these minor aesthetic issues anywhere in the city.

It really grates on you after a while. And the reality is; these things incrementally add up and make a huge difference. Massive I'd argue. And there is literally no excuse for ignoring them.

Last week, I noticed all of Girard Avenue has had the Macadam (sp?) torn up to be replaced through Northern Liberties and Fishtown. Great? Then I noticed, there is literally trash every where in the gutters and it occured to me that the city will probably just come and pave over the trash without sweeping it up. Then, for here until eternity, you'll be able to see bits of trash poking its way through where the curb meets the street.

Then I saw an employee from Paesanos sweeping the sidewalks in front of their store on Girard (yay!). Straight into the gutter. (Frown).

There is no street cleaning. It's so dispiriting.

Im all for more cleaning but your prediction about what will happen on Girard is off base. First of all the STATE, not the city is responsible for that project and many other paving projects (and streets that need to be paved) and no you cannot pave a street with the trash in place. Before they put down the wearing course they will have a street sweeper prep the surface.

Highway maintenance is a state function and PENNDOT doesn't seem to make it a high priority at all. Not sure how to change that. The road shoulders aren't clean outside of Philly either.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by 1487

Im all for more cleaning but...

Didn't you recently say street sweeping isn't politically feasible in Philadelphia or I am I imagining that?

Whatever the situation with Girard Avenue is, I agree with 3rd&Brown's comments completely

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by eixample

Didn't you recently say street sweeping isn't politically feasible in Philadelphia or I am I imagining that?

Whatever the situation with Girard Avenue is, I agree with 3rd&Brown's comments completely

It is in a lot of neighborhoods because it becomes a parking issue and everyone loses their shit over it. People refuse to move their cars from one side of the street for a day once every week or two so that the street sweeper can go through. If you could get around that hold up, we'd have a much cleaner city.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It is in a lot of neighborhoods because it becomes a parking issue and everyone loses their shit over it. People refuse to move their cars from one side of the street for a day once every week or two so that the street sweeper can go through. If you could get around that hold up, we'd have a much cleaner city.

I think to get around that you need to sell it with parking reforms like increased enforcement to get rid of cars that never move, increasing fees for second, third, fourth cars at households in permit districts, cajoling neighborhoods about how filthy the city is and how we really need it, explaining how we need to do it to remain a competitive 21st century City to lure jobs and residents. Start in the wealthier neigborhoods and appeal to their progressive values and then phase it in through the rest of the city over time. lt'd take some political will to get it done for sure, but exactly zero effort is being made to even lay the groundwork for it (unless you count the litter index currently being compiled, whatever that is). 1487 sounded like it was impossible to fit street sweeping into the city budget, which sounded pretty wrong to me.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by eixample

I think to get around that you need to sell it with parking reforms like increased enforcement to get rid of cars that never move, increasing fees for second, third, fourth cars at households in permit districts, cajoling neighborhoods about how filthy the city is and how we really need it, explaining how we need to do it to remain a competitive 21st century City to lure jobs and residents. Start in the wealthier neigborhoods and appeal to their progressive values and then phase it in through the rest of the city over time. lt'd take some political will to get it done for sure, but exactly zero effort is being made to even lay the groundwork for it (unless you count the litter index currently being compiled, whatever that is). 1487 sounded like it was impossible to fit street sweeping into the city budget, which sounded pretty wrong to me.

Except the problem is that many of those most vehemently opposed to any changed are retired. They don't want more jobs and they definitely don't want to lure more residents. Their goal in life is to keep the neighborhood exactly as it has always been.

[1487]

Originally Posted by eixample

Didn't you recently say street sweeping isn't politically feasible in Philadelphia or I am I imagining that?

Whatever the situation with Girard Avenue is, I agree with 3rd&Brown's comments completely

Yeah you are imagining that. I said that you will never have universal street sweeping in Philly- never had it and never will. I do hope they bring back what they had before that focused on many of the city's neighborhood commercial corridors. Street sweeping isn't the answer- cutting litter and waste is the better, but more difficult to achieve solution.

They dont leave trash on the street before they pave.

[1487]

Originally Posted by eixample

I think to get around that you need to sell it with parking reforms like increased enforcement to get rid of cars that never move, increasing fees for second, third, fourth cars at households in permit districts, cajoling neighborhoods about how filthy the city is and how we really need it, explaining how we need to do it to remain a competitive 21st century City to lure jobs and residents. Start in the wealthier neigborhoods and appeal to their progressive values and then phase it in through the rest of the city over time. lt'd take some political will to get it done for sure, but exactly zero effort is being made to even lay the groundwork for it (unless you count the litter index currently being compiled, whatever that is). 1487 sounded like it was impossible to fit street sweeping into the city budget, which sounded pretty wrong to me.

Universal street sweeping is not possible in current budget- you are right about that. It was cut to save money years back and even when we had it it was in select areas- mostly commercial.

There is an extensive litter plan that anyone with a computer can read. I do believe they mention street sweeping as a potential long term policy change. The litter index is like one of 100 things mentioned in the Plan but I guess the plan doesn't count as groundwork to improve the status quo.

maybe if more people complained to PennDOT they would do better on highway shoulder maintenance. I suspect most of the people who complain have never actually contacted them to voice their displeasure.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by 1487

Universal street sweeping is not possible in current budget- you are right about that. It was cut to save money years back and even when we had it it was in select areas- mostly commercial.

There is an extensive litter plan that anyone with a computer can read. I do believe they mention street sweeping as a potential long term policy change. The litter index is like one of 100 things mentioned in the Plan but I guess the plan doesn't count as groundwork to improve the status quo.

maybe if more people complained to PennDOT they would do better on highway shoulder maintenance. I suspect most of the people who complain have never actually contacted them to voice their displeasure.

You do understand that the rest of the civilized world has street sweeping, right?

[Boku]

Awesome, another street sweeping discussion. Let's talk about taxes next.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by Boku

Awesome, another street sweeping discussion. Let's talk about taxes next.

They should apply a 'litter tax' to those living in dirty neighborhoods, then use the funds to pay for street sweeping and pre-pre-k.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Londonee

You do understand that the rest of the civilized world has street sweeping, right?

hadn't thought about it. Not something I've normally seen when visiting.

I think anyone expecting citywide sweeping is detached from reality. As noted (multiple times) I hope we get focused commercial cleaning back. Not sure how that keeps getting missed.

I also agree with Kenney's litter panel in that ultimately you have to cut down the source material.

[Frontst17]

I can't name another large city I've been to us or Europe that doesn't have trash on the streets. Other than tourist areas where it's meant to look like Disney world, where there are people eating shopping living, there will be trash. I don't think it's any secret more money is spent within CC boundaries as other neighborhoods. An increase in trash is probably due to an influx of businesses and residents, a lack of trash cans (CC included), and a lack of giving a damn where people throw it. Street sweeping is most definitely not in the budget people definitely need to hold themselves and neighbors accountable. I don't need the city to do it for me. The last thing I do when I travel is see how much trash they have on the streets that doesn't indicate a healthy city. Sure when the cities pockets are overflowing then we can start thinking over street sweeping. Other than that who cares

[iheartphilly]

Manhattan is pretty clean. A lot of it is in human behavior. Some people are taught not to litter and some are not. If people want to treat Philly as a trash bin, they will do it without a second thought. Proud Philadelphians must not contribute to the litter problem as well. And, seeing litter begets more litter. It kinda validates that it is ok to litter when it is not. With all this (new) construction going on it all parts of the city, the city should up its game to keep it clean, and not just outside the touristy areas. Our "care" factor needs to elevate. For the record, I like shiny high rises and clean streets and parks.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Boku

Awesome, another street sweeping discussion. Let's talk about taxes next.

Lets not forget public schools; "for the children"

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by 1487

Im all for more cleaning but your prediction about what will happen on Girard is off base. First of all the STATE, not the city is responsible for that project and many other paving projects (and streets that need to be paved) and no you cannot pave a street with the trash in place. Before they put down the wearing course they will have a street sweeper prep the surface.

Highway maintenance is a state function and PENNDOT doesn't seem to make it a high priority at all. Not sure how to change that. The road shoulders aren't clean outside of Philly either.

Define "outside of Philly".

They're spotless in Delaware, Maryland, DC, and Virginia.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I can't name another large city I've been to us or Europe that doesn't have trash on the streets. Other than tourist areas where it's meant to look like Disney world, where there are people eating shopping living, there will be trash. I don't think it's any secret more money is spent within CC boundaries as other neighborhoods. An increase in trash is probably due to an influx of businesses and residents, a lack of trash cans (CC included), and a lack of giving a damn where people throw it. Street sweeping is most definitely not in the budget people definitely need to hold themselves and neighbors accountable. I don't need the city to do it for me. The last thing I do when I travel is see how much trash they have on the streets that doesn't indicate a healthy city. Sure when the cities pockets are overflowing then we can start thinking over street sweeping. Other than that who cares

OMG.

I am not responsible for my neighbors or people who just walk through my neighborhood.

Case in point. You = apathetic.

And how do you know it's "most definitely not in the budget". There are plenty of discretionary things that can be cut before street sweeping. How 'bout we get the $50 million back that was spent on the now abandoned Provident Mutual building. That would have funded street cleaning for almost 3 years.

And you know what personal responsibility is?

I have a job.
On top of that job, I am starting a company.
On top of that company, I own a rental property.
On top of that rental property, I am renovating another house.

On top of that, I sweep both blocks (not just my house, the entire block) of both properties.

I pay taxes on my income from job 1, the company on 2, and both properties.

And I also need to be responsible for my neighbors?

How about this?

HOW ABOUT I GET SOMETHING FOR MY MONEY, LIKE A SANITATION DEPARTMENT THAT CAN GET THE TRASH IN THE TRASH TRUCK AND A CITY THAT CAN RUN A SWEEPER DOWN THE GOD DAMNED STREET ONCE A MONTH.

Yeah. It's not that hard. If you think I'm asking for a lot, then you really are a part of the problem.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

You do understand that the rest of the civilized world has street sweeping, right?

I mean.

He doesn't realize the bureaucracy around maintaining a "litter index" will outstrip any budget needed for street sweeping.

Can you imagine next?

We won't be able to have street sweeping because we don't have budget because that budget is needed to maintain the litter index.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Manhattan is pretty clean. A lot of it is in human behavior. Some people are taught not to litter and some are not. If people want to treat Philly as a trash bin, they will do it without a second thought. Proud Philadelphians must not contribute to the litter problem as well. And, seeing litter begets more litter. It kinda validates that it is ok to litter when it is not. With all this (new) construction going on it all parts of the city, the city should up its game to keep it clean, and not just outside the touristy areas. Our "care" factor needs to elevate. For the record, I like shiny high rises and clean streets and parks.

Manhattan sweeps every street 2-3X a week.

You think people just miraculously don't litter in NYC?

[El Duderino]

^thank you, that was very awesome.

in other lowrise/general development news, steel is above ground at the national. it will have a massive presence even at six floors. also, does anyone know what's going on at a big reno at 11th and brandywine? it's in a great spot (right near union transfer) and already is looking good.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

No.

The apathy is pretty endemic here. And I really could care less about the power plants and refineries. That shows me that we're a city where stuff is still made; which I think is cool.

Nonetheless. The minute you step out of Center City, every single tree pit has 3 feet of weeds in it. Trash is everywhere. Every high way on ramp / off ramp looks like the grass hasn't been cut in 17 years. It's like there is literally no attention paid, none, to these minor aesthetic issues anywhere in the city.

It really grates on you after a while. And the reality is; these things incrementally add up and make a huge difference. Massive I'd argue. And there is literally no excuse for ignoring them.

Last week, I noticed all of Girard Avenue has had the Macadam (sp?) torn up to be replaced through Northern Liberties and Fishtown. Great? Then I noticed, there is literally trash every where in the gutters and it occured to me that the city will probably just come and pave over the trash without sweeping it up. Then, for here until eternity, you'll be able to see bits of trash poking its way through where the curb meets the street.

Then I saw an employee from Paesanos sweeping the sidewalks in front of their store on Girard (yay!). Straight into the gutter. (Frown).

There is no street cleaning. It's so dispiriting.

No? No to what?

You went on a long screed against littering, a topic of which my post barely dealt with but I agreed I wished the city was cleaner. My post was regarding my lack of desire to erect giant concrete barriers too block the vision of some neighborhoods from some very dainty tourists amd visitors.