Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[delts145]

Haha, Love the comparison to an old school washing machine. So true. While I do like the majority of the Vivint Arena, like many have said in the past, I do wish they would make some improvements to the backside. Especially now that that street behind is becoming more than just an after thought.

[Utah_Dave]

Does anyone have access to the population density comparison for our downtown core vs other cities downtown core? I can't seen too look backwards anymore

[Comrade]

The Viv is ugly. It looks like a concrete box or a suburban office building. It's got zero street engagement, even after the renovations. Is it the ugliest in the NBA? No. But it's nowhere near the top and I'd wager MOST NBA fans would agree with that. It's not dogging on SLC to point out reality.

With that said, the arena has the best atmosphere, or one of the best atmospheres, in the NBA. It's just not an attractive looking building.

But some national takes on NBA arenas:

10 Best NBA Arenas (no Viv)

Ranking Every NBA Arena (Viv is 25th)

What the Phoenix Suns did with Talking Stick Resort Arena is what I had wished the Jazz did with the Viv:



Take an ugly, boxy design and add a huge atrium-style entrance that opens up the street engagement and offers a modern touch. That section of their arena is so much nicer than the half-assed design we got with the Viv's renovation.

[delts145]

That the Vivint is simply an ugly box is only your opinion, let's just leave it at that.

I agree as does everyone, that whole area around the Vivint Arena could use more infill and street engagement. As that area continues to build up, hopefully projects like the one proposed by The Richie Group will come to pass. I would much rather see classy vibrant projects surround Vivint like Richie than that accumulation of a hot mess of designs in the Phoenix photo. Frankly, L.A. Live has a much more attractive immediate grouping along with the Figueroa surroundings under construction, than what I see in that photo of Phoenix. The Richie Group style proposals, and an evolving Gateway as planned are more along the line of what I would prefer to see surrounding Vivint.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Comrade

The Viv is ugly. It looks like a concrete box or a suburban office building. It's got zero street engagement, even after the renovations. Is it the ugliest in the NBA? No. But it's nowhere near the top and I'd wager MOST NBA fans would agree with that. It's not dogging on SLC to point out reality.

With that said, the arena has the best atmosphere, or one of the best atmospheres, in the NBA. It's just not an attractive looking building.

But some national takes on NBA arenas:

10 Best NBA Arenas (no Viv)

Ranking Every NBA Arena (Viv is 25th)

What the Phoenix Suns did with Talking Stick Resort Arena is what I had wished the Jazz did with the Viv:



Take an ugly, boxy design and add a huge atrium-style entrance that opens up the street engagement and offers a modern touch. That section of their arena is so much nicer than the half-assed design we got with the Viv's renovation.

The bowl is also way too steep. It really hurts the viewing experience for most seats. The upper bowl is almost completely worthless seats and the lower bowl has fewer seats than it could have(they just reduced the number of lower bowl seats too). I'd much rather have a big open lower bowl like Madison Square Garden or Air Canada Centre than an echo chamber that gets loud but most seats are at a horrible angle to watch basketball from.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by delts145

That the Vivint is simply an ugly box is only your opinion, let's just leave it at that.

I agree as does everyone, that whole area around the Vivint Arena could use more infill and street engagement. As that area continues to build up, hopefully projects like the one proposed by The Richie Group will come to pass. I would much rather see classy vibrant projects surround Vivint like Richie than that accumulation of a hot mess of designs in the Phoenix photo. Frankly, L.A. Live has a much more attractive immediate grouping along with the Figueroa surroundings under construction, than what I see in that photo of Phoenix. The Richie Group style proposals, and an evolving Gateway as planned are more along the line of what I would prefer to see surrounding Vivint.

It's my opinion but it's shared by a lot of people. I think it's just extreme to say it has elegance. The arena has a lot of work to do to even come close to being a top10 arena in the league.

That doesn't take away from the atmosphere or the fans but it's not a top10 arena outside intimidation and noise. It's old. It's boxy. It's not architecturally bold or significant like some of the modern arenas or the older ones. It's a concrete box with windows. And frankly, the renovations, at least in the exterior, feel half-assed. I had always hoped the Viv would get a radical face lift and look less 1980s. But to me, it's only marginally better than Target Center or the Bradley Center.





Of course, the Bradley Center doesn't exist anymore. The Bucks are set to move into this arena...



Which, to me, pushes the Viv down even further among NBA arenas.

Great fans. Great atmosphere. Crappy exterior. Which does kinda suck because, for better or worse, sports arenas play a huge role in the fabric of a city. The Viv is cold and isolated from downtown. Some of that can be corrected but it would've been nice to expand the arena on the north side out toward 300 West and South Temple, allowing for maybe a bar or restaurants that front the street. Oh well.

[Stenar]

... nm

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

The Viv is ugly. It looks like a concrete box or a suburban office building. It's got zero street engagement, even after the renovations. Is it the ugliest in the NBA? No. But it's nowhere near the top and I'd wager MOST NBA fans would agree with that. It's not dogging on SLC to point out reality.

With that said, the arena has the best atmosphere, or one of the best atmospheres, in the NBA. It's just not an attractive looking building.

But some national takes on NBA arenas:

10 Best NBA Arenas (no Viv)

Ranking Every NBA Arena (Viv is 25th)

What the Phoenix Suns did with Talking Stick Resort Arena is what I had wished the Jazz did with the Viv:



Take an ugly, boxy design and add a huge atrium-style entrance that opens up the street engagement and offers a modern touch. That section of their arena is so much nicer than the half-assed design we got with the Viv's renovation.

Sorry but I think that thing is an ugly mess. I would take Vivint over that any day. It looks like somthing that you would find hidden behind the Vegas strip that has been added on to 100 times. I think they could have done a reclad or somthing on the building, but I actually kind of like the cemetery of it and how it has open space on the 3 corners. That would have been hideous if they tried to add a parking structure on the block. I do wish they would put windows on the SW side of the building.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Sorry but I think that thing is an ugly mess. I would take Vivint over that any day. It looks like somthing that you would find hidden behind the Vegas strip that has been added on to 100 times. I think they could have done a reclad or somthing on the building, but I actually kind of like the cemetery of it and how it has open space on the 3 corners. That would have been hideous if they tried to add a parking structure on the block. I do wish they would put windows on the SW side of the building.

I agree the parking structure would've been bad but the open space around the Viv is exactly why it's disconnected from downtown. It'd be a cool arena in West Valley, though.

There is nothing special about the Viv beyond the fans. It's one of the most nondescript, generic arenas in the NBA. And because of that, you'll rarely see it top any list of best arenas in the NBA despite a few other arenas, like the United Center (which, oddly, sits in the middle of a parking lot) built in that same era.

Let's be honest: The Jazz botched the exterior renovations. It's a shame, too, because it's actually a great venue for basketball. It's just ugly as fuck. But that's not a surprise - all the basketball arenas in Utah, from the Huntsman Center to the Marriott Center and Spectrum up in Logan, are ugly as fuck.

[Liberty Wellsian]

"Scientology" apartments from the library

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by i-215

Thank heaven for the sprawl. Some of us can't afford $5k/mo. apartments downtown.

(Both are important; a city shouldn't be 100% sprawl nor 0% sprawl)

Can you afford the 300k (and shooting upward) avg. home price? Because that's a result of sprawl.

You could also take away car payments, gas, registration, insurance, and maintenance and put that towards your rent.

There's definitely a cost to sprawl.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Hey Outdoor Retailers check this photo out

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/26/545583...as-development

number of Natural gas wells
Utah 8,739
Colo 46,322

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_prod_wells_s1_a.htm

[Orlando]

Hahaha! Oh Peter Metcalf.... did you know about this??!!

[bob rulz]

Comrade, you have your opinion and we have ours. I couldn't care less about the subjective rankings of "best arenas". I think Vivint's basic design is decent. I never said it was one of the best in the NBA, or that it was great or exceptional, but I would take the sleek, bluish-grey design of Vivint over that boxy stucco mess that Phoenix has, or the cruise ship/office tower crossover that is the Brooklyn arena.

Did they miss opportunities when they renovated? Yes. That block needs more street engagement, and they could do some updates to the design. But in my opinion, it is in the upper half of arenas in the NBA in its basic exterior design.

That is my opinion, and you have your opinion. I don't see any reason why either of us has to convince the other that their opinion is right.

[delts145]

downtown Milwaukee arena

The Milwaukee window side is okay. Nothing special, but okay. Though, can anyone imagine allowing that giant brown wall to abutt a street anywhere in the downtown vicinity? I wouldn't even wish it on Sandy or West Valley.

Seriously, the Vivint arena design itself fits very well into its vicinity. Most of these other designs would be grotesque in Salt Lake City's downtown.

Just for hypothetical dreaming, the Dallas design would fit well in that vicinity. Particularly because of the Union Pacific Depot and the Devereaux. It would be great if a similar Dallas pattern were used for a future MLB stadium in the downtown area.

If the current design is too simple for some, and we could build whatever we wanted, then IMO I think a design very much like the Main Library would be outstanding at that location. As is though, I think Vivint is great as far as the Arena exterior design itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the so called arena rankings related to the Vivints past 'state of the art' bones within? With this new 125 million dollar update, hasn't that been resolved? I mean the argument should be about whether the interior effectiveness has been greatly elevated, not about its exterior design. I think most on this forum like myself either really like or are at least fine with the current exterior design.

Where I think the critics would say Salt Lake City is now lacking as far as its NBA arena experience goes, is what surrounds it across the street. This should be the topic of discussion.

Will stepping across the street to an evolved Gateway, and completed projects like Richie not only resolve the negatives, but give us a much more attractive result than a Phoenix mess? Or for that matter, a Milwaukee Noah's Arc plopped down on one of the downtown streets...

.

[delts145]

To be fair to the Milwaukee design. I like the curvature of the roofline. The giant brown wall could be easily resolved if structural issues would allow. Double the amount of window placement, and do something with the street level engagement.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Vivint Arena is already what, the second oldest? Third oldest? Correct me if I'm wrong. The few arenas that are older have replacements under construction or in the works. Even some that are younger. With Vivint's light remodel, and it is a "light" one, it will soon become the oldest and most dated of the NBA arenas, especially now that it's expected to be in use at least another 2 decades.

[Mountain man]

My goodness you guys Drop It. Its a basketball stadium, get over it. Is it nice? Yes! Is it perfect or one of the top? No. Its extremely subjective to ones opinion, so sorry Delts and Comrade but I think arguing it and trying to prove it with things or pictures isn't going to change anyones opinions. I swear you guys argue about the most subjective and dumbest things on earth like best mountains, best basketball stadiums, best scenery, some of the best downtown sites and restaurant scenes in the country. (all of which have been argued over the past few pages.) Well last I checked all that is just ones opinion. Do you want to know my opinion? Mountains- most stunning goes to Salt Lake and Colorado Springs, Most beautiful goes to Colorado as a whole including right outside of Denver, and Sierra Nevadas.-- Basketball stadiums-I like the Vivant Arena, was not overly impressed. --Best scenery? Yes Salt lake is one of the most beautiful cities in America, but I think most major cities in California and Honolulu definitely are more beautiful. Does Salt Lake have an impressive restaurant scene? Maybe but not from what I've noticed from my experience.

Okay now just like everyone else I have noted my opinions. I have no doubt in my mind that someone is going to argue me on MY OPINION. Which aren't going to change and neither will anyone else's.

As Salt Lake being one of my favorite cities and a city I visit on a monthly basis I come on this forum because I'm excited to see what development is going on and to see what this city has in store. But my gosh you all have ruined the Salt Lake forum and made it completely unenjoyable to read anymore. How many other people from out of town come onto this forum because they are excited to see whats going on here just to find an almost completely pathetic mess? For a little bit there I thought you guys were able to actually stay positive and on subject with development, but man was I wrong.

I honestly don't think I'll be following the Salt Lake forum all that much longer because its become pathetic.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by delts145

downtown Milwaukee arena

The Milwaukee window side is okay. Nothing special, but okay. Though, can anyone imagine allowing that giant brown wall to abutt a street anywhere in the downtown vicinity? I wouldn't even wish it on Sandy or West Valley.

Seriously, the Vivint arena design itself fits very well into its vicinity. Most of these other designs would be grotesque in Salt Lake City's downtown.

Just for hypothetical dreaming, the Dallas design would fit well in that vicinity. Particularly because of the Union Pacific Depot and the Devereaux. It would be great if a similar Dallas pattern were used for a future MLB stadium in the downtown area.

If the current design is too simple for some, and we could build whatever we wanted, then IMO I think a design very much like the Main Library would be outstanding at that location. As is though, I think Vivint is great as far as the Arena exterior design itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the so called arena rankings related to the Vivints past 'state of the art' bones within? With this new 125 million dollar update, hasn't that been resolved? I mean the argument should be about whether the interior effectiveness has been greatly elevated, not about its exterior design. I think most on this forum like myself either really like or are at least fine with the current exterior design.

Where I think the critics would say Salt Lake City is now lacking as far as its NBA arena experience goes, is what surrounds it across the street. This should be the topic of discussion.

Will stepping across the street to an evolved Gateway, and completed projects like Richie not only resolve the negatives, but give us a much more attractive result than a Phoenix mess? Or for that matter, a Milwaukee Noah's Arc plopped down on one of the downtown streets...

.

MLB won't happen. Without even thinking about who the billionaire owner would be or the lack of corporate sponsors there just isn't enough spare entertainment dollars in the metro to support 81 MLB home games. NFL is more feasible in this regard due to having just 8 home games but Billionaire, Corporate sponsors, LV Raiders, Uofu Byu, and the Sunday thing.

That leaves NHL and MLS. Real Salt Lake could become much more popular and require a larger stadium but if that happens it won't be soon. I could see NHL but Vivint isn't a good fit. Vivint is super fugly with ice. Maybe we get an NHL arena and the E-center becomes an office park? That's the only option that seems at all plausible to me.

Edit: Vivint is an awful arena for basketball imo. Basketball is a vertical game. Jumping is a huge part of it. When you watch it from such a steep angle you lose the vertical perspective of the game. A more shallow bowl would offer a better view of the game and have more lower bowl seats.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I agree the parking structure would've been bad but the open space around the Viv is exactly why it's disconnected from downtown. It'd be a cool arena in West Valley, though.

There is nothing special about the Viv beyond the fans. It's one of the most nondescript, generic arenas in the NBA. And because of that, you'll rarely see it top any list of best arenas in the NBA despite a few other arenas, like the United Center (which, oddly, sits in the middle of a parking lot) built in that same era.

Let's be honest: The Jazz botched the exterior renovations. It's a shame, too, because it's actually a great venue for basketball. It's just ugly as fuck. But that's not a surprise - all the basketball arenas in Utah, from the Huntsman Center to the Marriott Center and Spectrum up in Logan, are ugly as fuck.

I think it’s disconnected from down town because of The Salt Palace, The 2 Block strip of unused land along South Temple, The Japan Town Block, the under utilization of The Triad Center, The fact that Gateway is practically abandons, the non utilization of the ground floors of the 100s hotels.... It seems isolated because it is isolated.

200 South is coming along, and it sounds like redevelopment of the Japan Town Block is on the way. With operation Rio Grand, the shelter closing, and the gateway getting Dave and Busters as a new anchor... that should spur development to the west and south.... unfortunately the LDS church has absolutely nothing in the near future pipeline for the land along South Temple or better use of The Triad Center... so there is going to be a huge disconnect on that end for some time to come.

The corner plazas are not that big... filling them with structure is not going to connect them to down town. It’s actually nice to have some open space. Gallivan Center Plaza, City Creek Center, and many other places around the city have more open space then Vivint and they are perfectly engaged with the city... it’s just the fact that nothing is going on around Vivint witch is the problem.

Perhaps they should have built the main entrance/plaza on the SE corner of the block instead.... The South Of Vivint will probably start to become more engaging within the next 4 years... it will probably be 30-40 years before anything happens on the south side... and when it does it’s going to be a BYU campus... not really anything of interest.