Winnipeg Construction IX

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Likely just thrown on there for name recognition. Wonder if they're going the syndicated mortgage route for this one

Many of the partners listed are non-Winnipeggers who are involved in crowdfunding schemes, software development, advertising, etc. The lead guy Jess Evan Davis doesn't seem to have much (any?) experience in development. I think the objective is to raise money via crowdfunding.

[buzzg]

Exactly... put this in the Dreamscape pile.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Exactly... put this in the Dreamscape pile.

A reasonable take given the facts at hand.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by biguc

With respect to Independent Jewellers, 10 years ago we could have made the same arguments about Nygard's store on Broadway: not in a great or prominent location, pick our battles, we should be happy there's anything there at all, etc. These days, west Broadway is on the ups, and for the foreseeable future that stupid Nygard parking lot is going to be an impediment to the area's continued development.

IJ is making its neighbourhood and the city worse. For a long time to come. Isabelle north of Notre Dame is showing clear signs of life, and offers a lot of promise for the future. Don't expect me to forgive them for blighting the city.

Like.

[WestEndWander]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Once the intersection opens Portage East will be a vastly improved streetscape. This hotel provides yet one more reason to embrace opening it when the announcement comes. Ps. Soon.

"to embrace opening it when the announcement comes. Ps. Soon"

I feel this hasn't been given the proper SSP reaction of "What!?! When?!? More details please!!! Or any details please!" or level of interrogation/hounding that TV should have gotten with a statement such as this.

[esquire]

^ Looks like you just did it

[optimusREIM]

^I think it was in regards to the new Richardson research facility which we've all been aware was coming for quite some time. But since were talking about it, I too would love some news on this!

[pacman]

Originally Posted by biguc

With respect to Independent Jewellers, 10 years ago we could have made the same arguments about Nygard's store on Broadway: not in a great or prominent location, pick our battles, we should be happy there's anything there at all, etc. These days, west Broadway is on the ups, and for the foreseeable future that stupid Nygard parking lot is going to be an impediment to the area's continued development.

IJ is making its neighbourhood and the city worse. For a long time to come. Isabelle north of Notre Dame is showing clear signs of life, and offers a lot of promise for the future. Don't expect me to forgive them for blighting the city.

Talk about reaching to make a point, have you been around Isabel north of Notre Dame consistently over the last 10-15 years? I challenge you to name one specific thing about this area that has changed recently that proves that there are "clear signs of life" aside from vague statements about immigrants cleaning up the area. I lived in that area previously, drive through it often, I visit my mother-in-law regularly, stop in for slurpees at sev, drop in to Meyer's drugs here and there, and I can honestly say there are less businesses open, less activity in general, and contrary to what you say, nothing concrete that demonstrates promise for the future other than hope and possibilities.

The only major change to the area was the addition of Tim Horton's with their reprehensible drive thru and parking lot, which only came about at the expense of a family grocer that had been around for decades and served the community well. It closed a storefront on Isabel and pulled the building back from the sidewalk to allow vehicle access between the building and the sidewalk. Sound familiar?

Look, I understand that ideally an area can be rejuvenated with guiding principles that could potentially make it better in the future. I understand that people want to see successful CRU's fronting on busy pedestrian corridors so that we can build on that activity to get a snowball effect going in the area. But I get sick and tired of hearing negative spin on everything that anyone ever wants to build here. I'm sorry, but the rainbows and unicorns that everyone wants to see flying out of EVERY SINGLE new development in this town are unrealistic.

The Nygards, Independent Jewellers, Tim Horton's, etc... are the chickens to your idealistic CRU-filled, walkable eggs. To piss on these types of developments and say they are "making its neighborhood and the city worse" is naive and idealistic. And for someone of TV's position and influence to "like" these statements is sad.

[trueviking]

Nah. I wish more people of influence would put urban quality and long term effect ahead of a threat of losing a single small business. Was just thinking that yesterday walking by the lovely surface parking lot demanded by the yoga place on Fort. Same thing happened there. Same thing has happened a few times on Corydon. The jeweler further degrades the street and that can't be regained. No single small business is worth that. At some point we need to stop accepting things out of fear. If you don't want to play by the rules. Enjoy kenaston. Another business will take your place.

It's not idealistic at all to require urban buildings be built to the sidewalk. Most cities do that. It is weak and short sighted to accept the opposite. It's exactly how we have gotten where we are. Where does it end? It's time to stand up and require better. If we ever want streets like this to improve. Maybe it's a short term hit to lose a shop but long term it's better for the neighbourhood to create pedestrian quality at the sidewalk. That makes all the other shops stronger. Creating a car oriented retail street damages all the others.

I stand by it 100% and think it's sad we think so little of ourselves that we can't even enforce our own bylaws. I really thought we were beyond that spineless attitude. Guess not.

It's time to stand up for our city. For the long term. Play by the rules. They are there for a reason. If not. Have fun in your stucco paradise in the burbs.

[biguc]

Whatever. If you don't like living in a good city, don't. Some of us actually care about this place and hate to see making the same mistakes it has for 60 years.

[trueviking]

I guarantee had the city enforced their own rules, the jeweler would have stayed. They wanted to stay for a reason. It didn't hinge on their parking being infront or at the back. They demanded it because they have seen so many other examples where council was spineless and let it happen out of fear. Stop allowing it and businesses won't expect to be able to do it. Time to do what's right for the neighbourhood not just one business.

The jeweler is a destination. It's not a 7/11 that would feel it needs a quick access parking lot. People going to independent jewlers are going there specifically. Their business would not have been affected in any way. They did it because they could. We need to make it so they can't anymore.

[biguc]

Far from being idealistic, city building is a practical endeavor. This statement is so obvious I can't believe I have to say it, but ideas about what makes a city good don't spring out of some kind of mental space, they aren't derived from a deep understanding of reality. They're totally prosaic observations about what works and what doesn't.

Now, if you want me to wax philosophical, I can tell you how governance by rule of law offers a better environment for freedom and prosperity than governance by arbitrary rule. When people know what to expect, it's easy to plan accordingly.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by drew

First - I don't work for the City.

Second, my point stands and you are now dancing around yours. The reason for the tear-down is parking, and maybe having a nice new place to work and sell stuff in. Full Stop. Personally my only beef in this saga is that I would respect the business owner more in being up front and clear about this redevelopment, rather than the route they went by hiding behind some other BS ("won't someone please think of the children") excuse that questions my - and all of our - intelligence.

Sorry, I forgot you were an engineer not a planner... I think...

And I didn't hide that they needed parking. But they've had someone crash into them, as well as the lack of buffer between their storefront and... let's say... people who are clearly not prospective buyers... it is clearly and reasonably understandable why they wanted the lot.

When you deal with any city, you deal with the same reasoning you just decried ("think of the children") ten fold from the civic side. Any whimsical argument possible to act as leverage against a developer and for civic gain, whether horse trading or actual civic concern, is the norm. Ask anyone who has dealt with the city of Toronto or Vancouver. It's the game. Had Independent Jewellers not done that, they may not have gotten what they wanted... and I, as pretty much one of 3 libertarian capitalists here, respect the wishes of the landowner a certain degree more than average. It's their land, their money, and what everyone forgets, entirely their risk... they only were gonna win with the cards they played. Which weren't exactly inaccurate cards.

It's the way things often work.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by pacman

Talk about reaching to make a point, have you been around Isabel north of Notre Dame consistently over the last 10-15 years? I challenge you to name one specific thing about this area that has changed recently that proves that there are "clear signs of life" aside from vague statements about immigrants cleaning up the area. I lived in that area previously, drive through it often, I visit my mother-in-law regularly, stop in for slurpees at sev, drop in to Meyer's drugs here and there, and I can honestly say there are less businesses open, less activity in general, and contrary to what you say, nothing concrete that demonstrates promise for the future other than hope and possibilities.

The only major change to the area was the addition of Tim Horton's with their reprehensible drive thru and parking lot, which only came about at the expense of a family grocer that had been around for decades and served the community well. It closed a storefront on Isabel and pulled the building back from the sidewalk to allow vehicle access between the building and the sidewalk. Sound familiar?

Look, I understand that ideally an area can be rejuvenated with guiding principles that could potentially make it better in the future. I understand that people want to see successful CRU's fronting on busy pedestrian corridors so that we can build on that activity to get a snowball effect going in the area. But I get sick and tired of hearing negative spin on everything that anyone ever wants to build here. I'm sorry, but the rainbows and unicorns that everyone wants to see flying out of EVERY SINGLE new development in this town are unrealistic.

The Nygards, Independent Jewellers, Tim Horton's, etc... are the chickens to your idealistic CRU-filled, walkable eggs. To piss on these types of developments and say they are "making its neighborhood and the city worse" is naive and idealistic. And for someone of TV's position and influence to "like" these statements is sad.

Agreed. Some people seem to think there is a long line of people willing to invest $$$ in such areas, when in fact we know this is not the case.

[1ajs]

theres money around we have no vision with witch to build the economy to inspire the money to flow like many places but we have time slownes to stop mistakes from screwing up tomarrow

[pacman]

Biguc and TV, it was heartwarming reading about this utopian city where things work out perfectly just because there's a plan that needs to be followed without exception. And if people with differing opinions would just be rebuffed long enough, then eventually some generation down the road will recognize the amazing possibilities in the area and pour private investment just because this generation took a stand. Truly inspiring.

I respectfully disagree with your views. I personally believe that you need a combination of rule of law and arbitrary law, especially since most laws start off as arbitrary and transition to rule but remain arbitrary in nature at their heart (but that's another discussion.

Anyways, getting back to the specifics of this situation, but looking at it in the bigger context of the area. I personally am not convinced the jeweller would stay and there's a good possibility it would've moved away from the area. What you guys are suggesting is calling their bluff and being ready to accept them moving away. Fine, for the good of the area let's assume IJ open up a stucco and styrofoam paradise with a sprawling parking lot on big bad Kenaston. Can we also continue this game and assume the current location isn't demolished and instead remains vacant for the foreseeable future. Let's also assume that nothing significant changes in the area. My understanding of your arguments is that this situation is not only acceptable but preferable to the proposed IJ development.

We all know that the ideal situation would be a rejuvenation of the area where we can all look back and say "thankfully that building was saved and now it's an integral part of this fantastic rebirth of the area", but I'm saying that based on previous history it is just as likely if not more likely that the area remains shall we say in a sad state. I asked for one example in the last 10-15 years of a "clear sign of life" in that area. I can extend that to 20 years to give more opportunity. I'll give you a hint, there's not a single example aside from the Tim Hortons that replaced Reidigers which goes against every plan and principle you guys are promoting.

I know your argument will likely be that you're talking about the big picture preventing mistakes so that future generations don't have to deal with problems caused today. The thing is that big picture is made up of smaller pictures. If you aren't flexible and stick religiously to the plan, then what you're going to save is empty buildings with no vibrancy in the area... but at least the buildings will be up against the sidewalk and the area will be walkable (just in case).

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Agreed. Some people seem to think there is a long line of people willing to invest $$$ in such areas, when in fact we know this is not the case.

With that attitude, don't expect them ever to. Like I said, you could have made the same argument 10 years ago about West Broadway, and that got us not only a Nyquil parking lot, but a handful of drive-in businesses like McDonald's, and a rexal, on what is now prime real estate. Same thing goes for the gas station south of the Osborne rapid transit stop.

It's short sighted to allow bad, suburban development in the city. I'm going to remind you of this next time you start gnashing your teeth about how there's a lack of vision in this city. Or how this city never plans ahead. Or how nobody is ever proactive.

You people are literally picking a fight over making the city worse. Why?

[pacman]

Originally Posted by biguc

With that attitude, don't expect them ever to. Like I said, you could have made the same argument 10 years ago about West Broadway, and that got us not only a Nyquil parking lot, but a handful of drive-in businesses like McDonald's, and a rexal, on what is now prime real estate. Same thing goes for the gas station south of the Osborne rapid transit stop.

It's short sighted to allow bad, suburban development in the city. I'm going to remind you of this next time you start gnashing your teeth about how there's a lack of vision in this city. Or how this city never plans ahead. Or how nobody is ever proactive.

You people are literally picking a fight over making the city worse. Why?

Planning ahead and being proactive absolutely is needed. It involves doing more than producing a fancy document with guidelines for a perfect future. That foresight and that vision needs to be acted upon or it becomes forgotten. Reserving space and planning is absolutely necessary, but it's even more important to follow through on those plans. No doubt West Broadway is doing great recently. You portray it as doing this in spite of the McDonald's and Rexall and "Nyquil", but isn't it more likely that those blights are helping and gave a big push for the rejuvenation? What would that shining example of an area be today if those businesses weren't allowed? You use West Broadway as an example of how things have gone wrong because the City bent the rules, but I can easily argue the opposite and use West Broadway as an area that was helped and spurred on by spineless councillors who allowed those mistakes. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just saying that there are times when things need to be looked at on a case by case basis instead of ignoring anything that doesn't follow the plan.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by biguc

With that attitude, don't expect them ever to. Like I said, you could have made the same argument 10 years ago about West Broadway, and that got us not only a Nyquil parking lot, but a handful of drive-in businesses like McDonald's, and a rexal, on what is now prime real estate. Same thing goes for the gas station south of the Osborne rapid transit stop.

It's short sighted to allow bad, suburban development in the city. I'm going to remind you of this next time you start gnashing your teeth about how there's a lack of vision in this city. Or how this city never plans ahead. Or how nobody is ever proactive.

You people are literally picking a fight over making the city worse. Why?

If we were talking about Downtown, best believe I would be the first on scene ready to kick —, but these two locations are not worth getting your — in a knot over. It's not as if they are gravel lots. There is plenty of room for proper developments, which would draw attention away from these minor infractions. I'm a Hell of a lot more angrier over the city allowing the demolition of the Weir building on Main for that ugly as f@ck building that replaced it. As one of the two principle streets people (especially tourists) see, it is atrocious.

[trueviking]

Such a hilarious argument. I can't believe people still think it's good to accept things like this out of a fear of a single retailer moving to the suburbs. How can anyone honestly look at that street and not see how all these small decisions have added up to what we have today. There's no way a parking lot being located front or back would have been a deal breaker. But even if it was who cares. It's one retailer. We can't live in fear of vacant lots. We need to rise above that attitude and do what is right for the bigger picture. It's more likely a business that supports the neighbourhood would move in. I can't imagine IJ serves or employs much of the surrounding community. It's good to have them there but they are hardly irreplaceable.

The big picture is indeed made up of smaller pictures. This is why small things like this are important. When we give in on them they add up to what we have today. A street that has become nothing but a traffic funnel where we worry about buildings getting hit by cars.

You fear an empty building saved in the hopes of a walkable street. By allowing this you have ensured the street will not be walkable, ever. Which is worse. A street that is forever lost or waiting to fill a building that will make it walkable. If ever we are going to enforce the rules major intersections on streets like this are where we need to do it. Walk down the street. There are lots of little neighbourhood focussed small businesses. They need help. That means bringing people who are going to walk along their street.

So sad that people inwinnipeg still have such little confidence in our city. Those days are over. We need to start repairing the damage done by decades of this attitude or nothing will ever improve.

Blows my mind we are having this debate. The area looks like that precicely because we have allowed this kind of thing to happen.