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  #8821  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2017, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I would be interested in hearing the views from the Chicago thread's resident experts on this:

https://www.economist.com/news/business/...lunged-half-late-1960s-efficiency-eludes
I'm not a construction expert, but I am an engineer, so I'll throw in.

1) American industries have increased productivity by outsourcing sub assemblies, and often the whole product, to cheaper countries. Can't be done for buildings. And while low skill labor can shingle a roof, it can't do highrise construction.
Highrise components are large enough that pre-fab isn't practical. Could caisson cages be produced in a factory and trucked to building sites? As large as they are, they'd either produce huge traffic jams or not be able to make the turns. So they're built on site.

2) Architecture is unique, and unique resists automation. The self-climbing forms are standardized, but each building is custom, often with floorplates changing floor by floor. Maybe if every building was an identical Miesian box then robots could build it. I've seen in Hong Kong and China where a dozen identical towers are thrown up together. Is that what people want to be more efficient?

3) Call me old fashioned, but the only thing that scares me more than self-driving cars is self-driving cement trucks. Urban highrises don't have room for concrete to be produced on site, it has to be trucked in. Even without the drivers those trucks have to be washed out, maintained.

4) Automation works best in clean, controlled indoor environments where all the variables are removed and the machine does the exact same task over and over and over again. With no dirt, dust, moisture to speak of. You can eat off the floors in electronics factories, everyone walks around in booties.
I've seen enough construction photos here, seen men caked in dirt climbing around inside forms, running rebar and conduit and pipes, with every section different. No way can that be automated, not with the types of machines that run assembly lines.

I could go on, but there are dozens of factors why producing highrises and producing iPhones is not comparable.
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  #8822  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2017, 1:40 PM
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^ Thanks for that thoughtful reply.

It still strikes me as odd that productivity has declined dramatically since the 1960s however. It's not stagnant, it's going backwards. Construction isn't failing to automate, it's using more people now than it did 50 years ago. Very odd.

The article says cyclicality and lack of capital investment has a lot to do with it, but it that all it is?

I do notice that similar construction projects in Europe will use a lot more equipment. I've seen 3 tower cranes up to build a small apartment building (not tower - like 5 stories).
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  #8823  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2017, 3:25 PM
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^^^ One thought, does the decline in productivity track an increase in safety practices? Also, is the final product constant between the 1960s and now? For example, units in the 60s weren't all wired for high speed internet and cable, didn't have the luxury touches.
Are we comparing different things?
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  #8824  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2017, 3:39 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
^ Thanks for that thoughtful reply.

It still strikes me as odd that productivity has declined dramatically since the 1960s however. It's not stagnant, it's going backwards. Construction isn't failing to automate, it's using more people now than it did 50 years ago. Very odd.

The article says cyclicality and lack of capital investment has a lot to do with it, but it that all it is?

I do notice that similar construction projects in Europe will use a lot more equipment. I've seen 3 tower cranes up to build a small apartment building (not tower - like 5 stories).
Aaron is spot on in his post above.

Construction productivity has fallen significantly in the US because the regulations, amenities, building safety systems, workplace safety, etc has grown dramatically. Buildings back in the 60s in Chicago often didn't even have sprinkler systems, let alone complex computerized fire suppression/alarm systems. They instead relied heavily on passive controls.

Also in places like Chicago there are people intentionally throwing monkey wrench in the gears of productivity. The union lobby in Chicago has advocated a building code that intentionally excludes modern building techniques like PVC or pex in order to "create jobs". Obviously all this does is make everything more expensive for an inferior product and simply prevents as much construction as it "creates jobs". I have a feeling the explosive growth of union power in the second half of the 20th century screwed a lot of productivity gains as archaic building methods are foisted upon builders in major cities. All building systems are just that, systems designed to work together for maximum efficiency, if you are using all modern technology except for random areas where you are forced to use ancient technology, it's not only going to cause productivity loss in that system, but will Cascade into loss in other systems as you have to retrofit systems from different eras to work together. It's like trying to run knob and tube wiring through modern steel studs, going to be a big problem since your walls are now made of conductors.

Also the supply chain in the US has collapsed over this time frame. Chicago, for example, used to be the seat of the largest steel producing region on Earth. They literally built whole buildings here out of stock bridge girders. Why? Because they were already cranking them out on a mass production line a couple dozen miles away. Now the price of steel has soared as the us steel industry collapsed, you have much less stock production going on in the immediate area and you aren't going to ship girders in from China. Therefore we resort to different building methods like reinforced concrete which are much less modular and more labor intensive. This of course is mirrored in the decline of the availability of skilled labor also as a result of the industrial collapse. Harder and harder to find the skilled workers you need to build steel monstrosities when the entire industrial base that supported such things has fallen apart.
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  #8825  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2017, 5:06 PM
emathias emathias is offline
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In addition to specific comments I have added below, I have two general comments:

A) For automation to bring the biggest bang for the buck, things have to be redesigned. Cars aren't constructed the same way they were 60 years ago, which in turn were constructed quite differently from how they were manufactured 60 years before then - part of that is for safety improvements, but part of it is also with an eye toward automation. When construction firms are so fragmented, it's hard to develop demand for new techniques for the same investment reasons given in the article. When competition is fragmented and profit margins razor thin, it's hard to be the first to step up and pay the design and testing costs of entirely new ways to construct things. And in addition to the engineering, you'd often also have to address local code and whether the new methods meet all the criteria codes carry. It's almost like you'd need a big public/private partnership to design new techniques where governments initiated the process to help fit new codes to new techniques and then gave away that design IP to anyone who wanted to use it.

B) Reduction of unions. Trades and construction have probably resisted the decline in unions more than most industries, but how well have they? How much has unionization fallen in construction and the trades? Specific to the trades, unions often bore a large responsibility to provide well-trained labor. I remember reading an interview with the Sears Tower engineer, Fazlur Khan, where he credited unions with making sure his buildings got built correctly - he said he didn't think the Sears Tower could have been built in, for example, Miami, where unions weren't as strong as Chicago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
1) American industries have increased productivity by outsourcing sub assemblies, and often the whole product, to cheaper countries. Can't be done for buildings. And while low skill labor can shingle a roof, it can't do highrise construction.
Highrise components are large enough that pre-fab isn't practical. Could caisson cages be produced in a factory and trucked to building sites? As large as they are, they'd either produce huge traffic jams or not be able to make the turns. So they're built on site.
The article isn't only about highrises, though, it's covering construction overall - highrises, SFH, bridges, tunnels, the whole nine yards. Skyscrapers may always be more custom, but certain kinds of highrises could probably be standardized and have additional automation designed for/with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
2) Architecture is unique, and unique resists automation. The self-climbing forms are standardized, but each building is custom, often with floorplates changing floor by floor. Maybe if every building was an identical Miesian box then robots could build it. I've seen in Hong Kong and China where a dozen identical towers are thrown up together. Is that what people want to be more efficient?
Skyscrapers are unique. Many highrises are fairly unique. Smaller structures are less unique - certainly a lot could be gained by designing modular SFH and small multi-unit buildings. There is some work being done to that end, but it's still fairly small gains so far. Barcelona Housing Systems is doing some work to that end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
3) Call me old fashioned, but the only thing that scares me more than self-driving cars is self-driving cement trucks. Urban highrises don't have room for concrete to be produced on site, it has to be trucked in. Even without the drivers those trucks have to be washed out, maintained.
This is, of course, assuming that concrete will continue to be the primary building material. Part of why it's selected is that it can be cast in nearly any shape and is inherently customizable. If, as part of a push to drive efficiency, customization is made of secondary importance to efficiency, concrete may lose some of it's luster, or reserved for showcase buildings instead of also using it for work-a-day buildings. It may still be preferable, but materials science definitely needs to be part of any push to enhance construction efficiency.

In this regard, the Forth Bridge, Forth Road Bridge, and the upcoming Forth Replacement Crossing aka Queensferry Crossing, near Edinburgh, Scotland, all come to mind as visual examples of how infrastructure projects' design changes over time based on available materials and advances in how to apply them. Each subsequent bridge has been constructed with fewer materials, fewer workers, fewer deaths (73 deaths with the first Forth Bridge, 7 with the Forth Road Bridge, and it should have been zero, but it appears 1 death with the Queenferry Crossing bridge), and less time (8 years, 6 years, and 6 years - would have been 5 but there were weather delays).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
4) Automation works best in clean, controlled indoor environments where all the variables are removed and the machine does the exact same task over and over and over again. With no dirt, dust, moisture to speak of. You can eat off the floors in electronics factories, everyone walks around in booties.
Current automation of extremely fine items works best in cleanrooms. But comparing microchips or the assembly of microelectronics to infrastructure construction is not really appropriate in my opinion. It's a bit like saying you can't automate animal butchery because automated brain surgery requires extreme precision. The tolerances are nowhere near the same, and how you would go about automating which parts of the process(es) instructs how you address such issues and engineer the overall process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
I've seen enough construction photos here, seen men caked in dirt climbing around inside forms, running rebar and conduit and pipes, with every section different. No way can that be automated, not with the types of machines that run assembly lines.

I could go on, but there are dozens of factors why producing highrises and producing iPhones is not comparable.
Exactly, they're not comparable, and you would design completely different processes. Engineers can and do completely rethink assembly when automating tasks. Just as a most basic example, how you automate mass-production baking bears very little resemblance to how a baker operates a small bakery shop and yet the end products can often be made to be nearly indistinguishable - it's that's a desired goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
^^^ One thought, does the decline in productivity track an increase in safety practices? Also, is the final product constant between the 1960s and now? For example, units in the 60s weren't all wired for high speed internet and cable, didn't have the luxury touches.
Are we comparing different things?
I think the biggest jump is safety happened between about 1890 and 1960 - you saw about a 90% reduction in deaths in that timeframe. It's possible, I suppose, that getting down that last 10% to what is, for many projects, effectively zero deaths could have caused some stagnation in efficiency growth, but I would find it hard to believe that that actually caused a decline in efficiency.
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  #8826  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 3:29 AM
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It is absolutely possible to accelerate construction schedules and increase productivity; but it will require revisions to building codes, extensive focus on modular construction and a reduction of prohibitions on working overnight.

There are a number of companies out there experimenting with modular construction, one of which is named Broad Group and based in China. They erected a 30 story hotel in 15 days. They do both fabrication and construction of the modular components.

Video Link
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  #8827  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
^^^ One thought, does the decline in productivity track an increase in safety practices?
If you watch building webcams you can see it takes a lot of time to set up safety barriers, even more than the floor pours. I'm sure the biggest driver are regulation and safety related. But accidents are way down compared to back then, other than in underdeveloped countries with little oversight.
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  #8828  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 1:01 PM
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If you watch building webcams you can see it takes a lot of time to set up safety barriers, even more than the floor pours. I'm sure the biggest driver are regulation and safety related. But accidents are way down compared to back then, other than in underdeveloped countries with little oversight.
Funny - that is exactly what they said in London before relaxing the safety standards on high-rise cladding.
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  #8829  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 1:21 PM
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Funny - that is exactly what they said in London before relaxing the safety standards on high-rise cladding.
But that was not about construction safety.
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  #8830  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 8:28 PM
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In person, this one on Des Plaines turned out great.
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  #8831  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 8:51 PM
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^

Yeah, that turned out great. Didn't try to make cheap look chic. Kept it simple and it works.
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  #8832  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2017, 9:12 PM
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Merchandise Mart owner plans to build apartment tower across river

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-vornado-apartments-ryan-ori-0824-biz-20170823-column.html

"Vornado Realty Trust is ramping up plans for the site it owns across the Chicago River from the Mart, at Kinzie and Canal streets, according to sources. The surface parking lot is along the north side of a Cassidy Tire & Service building."
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  #8833  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 1:02 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Merchandise Mart owner plans to build apartment tower across river

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-vornado-apartments-ryan-ori-0824-biz-20170823-column.html

"Vornado Realty Trust is ramping up plans for the site it owns across the Chicago River from the Mart, at Kinzie and Canal streets, according to sources. The surface parking lot is along the north side of a Cassidy Tire & Service building."
I can't read the article - does it say how large? This is the lot, nice:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+Kinz...53dc946e37!8m2!3d41.8890697!4d-87.640012



------
In other high rise news, the mostly office space high rise at 330 S Wells (Wells & Van Buren) was issued a permit yesterday to convert it to 132 efficiency units with some office space, and ground floor retail (was there before - Billy Goat Tavern is there). Also, a new floor (17th) will be constructed with a penthouse:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/330+S+...459082c8b!8m2!3d41.8771094!4d-87.6338518
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  #8834  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 1:20 PM
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What happened to that spec boutique office tower that was going to go up on Wells St in the Loop? I believed they recently Demo'd a garage for it. Any movement?
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  #8835  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
I can't read the article - does it say how large? This is the lot, nice:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+Kinz...53dc946e37!8m2!3d41.8890697!4d-87.640012
When I lived in that area a few years ago, the Cassidy loading dock on the north side of the building was a pretty popular place for "urban gritty" photo shoots. Lots of women wearing wedding dresses and not an insignificant number of women, um, not wearing dresses...
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  #8836  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 2:48 PM
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Wonder how long it will be before Blommer cashes out.
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  #8837  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 3:13 PM
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Wonder how long it will be before Blommer cashes out.
Nooooooo I so love the smell of chocolate in the morning !
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  #8838  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 5:14 PM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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^I'm with ya Harry.

168 N Michigan, taken this morning.





Rehab of 174 N Mich to the North is set to begin in the spring, which means no more blights on this block!
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  #8839  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 5:43 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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^I'm with ya Harry.

168 N Michigan, taken this morning.





Rehab of 174 N Mich to the North is set to begin in the spring, which means no more blights on this block!
That's awesome! The development from Randolph to Wacker along Michigan Ave. is huge--has seemed like a wasted opportunity for a long time being the main tourist route from Mag Mile to Millennium Park.
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  #8840  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2017, 6:24 PM
BuildThemTaller BuildThemTaller is offline
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That's awesome! The development from Randolph to Wacker along Michigan Ave. is huge--has seemed like a wasted opportunity for a long time being the main tourist route from Mag Mile to Millennium Park.
That stretch across the street is turning into a sort of outdoor food court with the Nutella Cafe, Stan's Donut, David's Tea, and Nando's anchoring the east side of Michigan Ave. This all makes sense given the foot traffic in and out of Millennium Park. North of the River, food options are much more limited.
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