PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[iheartphilly]

Hell, I'll even settle for blue like the Girard Point Bridge as you cross over the shipyard.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

I have four millennial kids. My kids and their friends are moving inward, either to the city or to the nearby towns which differs from my suburban generation who moved further out when they grew up. There is a shift in the average. Of course there are examples of every kind of person within the generation but so many articles, especially those written by real estate folks, try to portray millennials as finally to coming to their senses, moving to the burbs, and being just like their parents. Lol

[eixample]

Originally Posted by City Wide

your comment about the bridge reminds me of a story concerning the color of the top section of City Hall-----Back in the 80's they were doing a complete rehab of the tower which in many places turned into a rebuild. A lot of it was very demanding and challenging work. Much of what you see near the of the top of the building is cast iron plates. Because of the nature of the work 'engineers' were in charge more so then any 'architects'.

At the end of this successful job one of the features about the work the engineers were patting themselves on the back about was that they were able to use very expensive, very complicated and difficult to use, epoxy paint on the tower part of the building. This paint is suppose to last for some ungodly amount of time, like 50+ years.

A reporter from the Inky asked the engineers about the color, which originally was suppose to be stone colored to make the tower appear to be built out of the same stone as the rest of the building. The engineers said the paint company gave them 3 colors to pick from and so we got that's there today. The reporter inquired about other colors, since what's there certainly doesn't look like the rest of the building, and the engineers said they picked from the 3 choices they had.

In a bit of reporting that is rare today, the reporter called the paint company to dig alittle deeper. And as it turns out that yes, they only made 3 stock colors. But when told what and where the paint was used for, the paint company said they would have been thrilled to do a custom color match and because of the amounts involved (something like 300 gallons) and because of the prestige of the building, there would not have been any upcharge.

So, we are stuck with the wrong color just because someone didn't even think of asking for the correct color. (but it does seem to be holding up well!)

That is a fascinating story, i have always wondered about that. The color contrast of the tower is the one thing about City Hall I really don't like and I have heard others make the same comment. This makes me thankful for open records laws that we have now that would allow reporters to get access to the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 city employee conversations about choosing colors. Of course we don't have reporters now to do the digging around so it is a trade off.

[summersm343]

Up for sale, South Broad property attracts more than 2 dozen firms for tour

Twenty-eight developers, architects and other real estate groups attended a site tour of a South Broad Street property that the city is seeking to sell.

The tour, held Aug. 16, was part of the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corp.’s request for qualifications process for those interested in buying two parcels that combined total nearly 40,000 square feet. One property is at 500-508 S. Broad St. and totals 25,620 square feet. The other site is at 508-510 S. Broad St. and totals 13,980 square feet.

The site is at the corner of Lombard Street and South Broad Street in Philadelphia.

The number of tour participants underscores the interest in the property as well as the South Broad area of the city.

At this time, the city operates a health center in a 3-story, 55,800-square-foot building that straddles the combined properties. The center is in the process of moving those services to other locations and the relocation is expected to be complete by the second quarter of 2018.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...idc-site-tour-domus-blatstein-drano.html

[Londonee]

The Millennials are also the largest generation, so much of this comes down to simple math.

Say on average 5% of the Baby Boomers stayed in the city when they had kids years ago. Now say, only 15% of Millennials are staying in the city when they have kids.

Because the Millennials are so much larger than the boomers - that could mean something like 10 times more people - just raw numbers - are staying in the city than before. Not insignificant.

[McBane]

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...ndos-on-south-broad-corner-20170824.html

I think this is interesting:

Michael Silverman, a managing director at Integra Realty Resources in Philadelphia, said Dranoff was apparently responding to a dearth of new, high-end condos in Center City. Such units are thought to be selling briskly in Dranoff’s recently completed One Riverside project in western Center City near Locust Street by the Schuylkill and in Tom Scannapieco’s 500 Walnut St. tower near Independence Hall, Silverman said.

“The appetite for condominiums is strong, and there’s not a lot of inventory of the new stuff,” he said.

Rental apartment and hotel projects, by contrast, have been rising from the ground at a rate that could soon outpace demand.

I am sure we all remember the condo boom and glut/bust; as soon as the condo market started to sour, developers immediately turned to rental units, and now that market is heading towards a glut. Looks like the pendulum has swung back to condos. The question is now, what current rental proposals are out there that could be turned to condos? 1911 Walnut is the most obvious. I think a project like that would find much more success as a condo building but of course, I don't have any real data to back that up with.

[Londonee]

^^Are mid-market (not ultra, high-end luxury) condos just not profitable? It seems a no-brainer to me, with so many millennials willing to pay $2500/mth for a rental...and baby boomers wanting to sell there $800,000 home in Paoli and keep a large chunk to add to their nest egg, but downsize and move into the city with no yard/maintenance... why are we not seeing more new condos built in the $400-$500k range?

Instead of 56 units over 28 floors, you condense a bit and do 100 units...I find it hard to believe, that in a building like this you can find a way to build 3-4 units/floor. I guess i just know several people who are in this exact marketspace and have complained to me that outside of a few choices (like The Ellington, The Phoenix, Academy House) - there's just no inventory in this range.

Seems like a big hole in the market of what we're seeing built right now.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by McBane

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...ndos-on-south-broad-corner-20170824.html

I think this is interesting:



I am sure we all remember the condo boom and glut/bust; as soon as the condo market started to sour, developers immediately turned to rental units, and now that market is heading towards a glut. Looks like the pendulum has swung back to condos. The question is now, what current rental proposals are out there that could be turned to condos? 1911 Walnut is the most obvious. I think a project like that would find much more success as a condo building but of course, I don't have any real data to back that up with.

1911 Walnut is already planned as a mixed building with both condos and rentals.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

^^Are mid-market (not ultra, high-end luxury) condos just not profitable? It seems a no-brainer to me, with so many millennials willing to pay $2500/mth for a rental...and baby boomers wanting to sell there $800,000 home in Paoli and keep a large chunk to add to their nest egg, but downsize and move into the city with no yard/maintenance... why are we not seeing more new condos built in the $400-$500k range?

Instead of 56 units over 28 floors, you condense a bit and do 100 units...I find it hard to believe, that in a building like this you can find a way to build 3-4 units/floor. I guess i just know several people who are in this exact marketspace and have complained to me that outside of a few choices (like The Ellington, The Phoenix, Academy House) - there's just no inventory in this range.

Seems like a big hole in the market of what we're seeing built right now.

I agree.

This would be the perfect formula for the proposed building at 4th & Callowhill....if that lot gets flipped in a timely manner.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by eixample

That is a fascinating story, i have always wondered about that. The color contrast of the tower is the one thing about City Hall I really don't like and I have heard others make the same comment. This makes me thankful for open records laws that we have now that would allow reporters to get access to the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 city employee conversations about choosing colors. Of course we don't have reporters now to do the digging around so it is a trade off.

In my opinion----I don't think the people who made the color selection were "🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 city employees", or 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 contractors, but just rather they were very unimaginative in their thinking. Overall the tower rebuild of City Hall was quite a undertaking, which by all accounts turned out to be successful----except for one very noticeable and very unfortunate oversight with the paint color.

My problem is I'd say its 50/50 that the same mistake will be made again. The next time it gets painted "they" might even think the existing color is the correct color.

[1487]

Originally Posted by City Wide

In my opinion----I don't think the people who made the color selection were "🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 city employees", or 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 contractors, but just rather they were very unimaginative in their thinking. Overall the tower rebuild of City Hall was quite a undertaking, which by all accounts turned out to be successful----except for one very noticeable and very unfortunate oversight with the paint color.

My problem is I'd say its 50/50 that the same mistake will be made again. The next time it gets painted "they" might even think the existing color is the correct color.

was the original color of the iron the same as the stone? Somehow I doubt that. It looks different partially because it is different. Colors are picked by the entity that does the design work- i.e. 3rd party architects. Unless they were totally incompetent there is probably some reason why they used that color.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by 1487

was the original color of the iron the same as the stone? Somehow I doubt that. It looks different partially because it is different. Colors are picked by the entity that does the design work- i.e. 3rd party architects. Unless they were totally incompetent there is probably some reason why they used that color.

Be a sport and read post 546 in this thread.

From what I remember the tower was suppose to be painted to look like stone. I have no idea if that meant all the way to Billy Penn's feet or to some other logical cut off point. Its just something I heard and have definitely seen in print (which means very little)

This fits with what else I've heard, but I can't confirm this, that the tower was built separately and at a later time from the rest of the building, and construction was stopped at the line where the stone stops because of some cracking in the foundation and concerns that building the rest of the tower out of stone wasn't possible because of the weight. So for a number of years City hall just sat there with a unfinished tower. I have no idea if that time was because of a lack money, a change in design taste, or time to find a way to finish the tower using different materials. But when it was finally finished I've read that it was painted to match the stone.

Now even if I'm in my 60's, that was before my time. It was also before color photos were common. So I can't speak from any personal experience, other then what I heard and read.

[Philly-Drew]

The tower on city hall has been a different color for a long time, even back before we were born. Look at the old black and white pictures and you'll see what I mean.

[LordElPaso]

Building City Hall went way over budget, from what I remember reading. Maybe someone ordered the wrong paint, they couldn't afford to get more, and they just went with it. :-D

[isThatAHippo]

If I remember correctly the reason behind the different color whites on City Hall is due to the fact that the top of the tower portion of the building is some sort of metal while the rest of the building is stone.

There is no paint that will adhere to the metal portion that exactly matches the color of the stone portion of the building.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by isThatAHippo

If I remember correctly the reason behind the different color whites on City Hall is due to the fact that the top of the tower portion of the building is some sort of metal while the rest of the building is stone.

There is no paint that will adhere to the metal portion that exactly matches the color of the stone portion of the building.

Read this post linked to below. Explains the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵-ery involved on the city's part in okaying the paint color used even though the paint company offered to do a color match to approximate the color of the stone (I'm sure an EXACT match is impossible but they could have gotten much closer than they did).

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7900463&postcount=15283

[1487]

Originally Posted by eixample

Read this post linked to below. Explains the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵-ery involved on the city's part in okaying the paint color used even though the paint company offered to do a color match to approximate the color of the stone (I'm sure an EXACT match is impossible but they could have gotten much closer than they did).

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7900463&postcount=15283

there isn't even a link to support anything in that post. And as noted, outside firms do design work and ultimately review and approve materials used by contractors. That's the way it works.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

The tower on city hall has been a different color for a long time, even back before we were born. Look at the old black and white pictures and you'll see what I mean.

true and for decades it was so covered in soot you couldn't make out the real color anyway. Painted metal and marble are not going to wear the same way so you would never have matching colors for long, if it was ever possible.

[eixample]

And 1487, the poster who has to defend the city at every turn, chimes in. I find it highly unlikely that it is impossible to match paint colors to approximately the same color. It might not look exact and wear differently but that is not what we are talking about here...I also find it highly unlikely that the city wasn't involved in some high-level way in setting the design standards for city hall renovation. If not they should have been.

[1487]

Originally Posted by eixample

And 1487, the poster who has to defend the city at every turn, chimes in. I find it highly unlikely that it is impossible to match paint colors to approximately the same color. It might not look exact and wear differently but that is not what we are talking about here...I also find it highly unlikely that the city wasn't involved in some high-level way in setting the design standards for city hall renovation. If not they should have been.

This is not a "City" issue- this is how work is done by public agencies in general. You hire and pay architects to do work and part of that work includes vetting materials proposed by the Contractor. All of this commentary based on an unproven story based on someone's memory from 20+ years ago. Generally speaking architects working on significant historic buildings don't take color selection lightly- the notion that some "city person" sitting in a cube made the decision is idiotic. My guess is there is some historic precedent for the color of the top of the tower- it could be this was close to what the original color was when the tower was complete.

When contractors submit paint colors they offer color charts that will show ALL the colors offered by a particular manufacturer that meet the design spec. The architect (sometimes in conjunction with the client) will select the color that meets the design intent.