Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What we really need is standardization of charging formats. A universal charging station that works for all cars.

Agreed. This is desperately needed. Sadly, Tesla is gunning to be the Apple of the EV sector.

[ars]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is a terribly shortsighted viewpoint. Why should anybody be bothered if Tesla is paying for a charging stand for 5-10 cars? If they are covering all the costs, how does that impact anybody else?

We now have other automakers proposing some competing standards. Since many will be proprietary to a handful of companies, should they be forced to build chargers off the highway too?

How is it shortsighted? On the contrary, allowing Tesla superchargers to dominate OnRoutes with their proprietary chargers would be shortsighted as only Teslas would be able to take advantage of the chargers, while every other EV, almost all of which use the industry standard SAE J1772 plugs, would be left out in the cold.

Maybe you forget that Teslas also come with an adapter that allows them to charge using the SAE J1772 port?

Here's a challenge, show me any competing standard, proprietary or open, that is as prevalent as SAE J1772 in the market.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ars

How is it shortsighted?

Discourages further uptake of electric vehicles. Moreover, I'd rather not pass up on companies offering to build infrastructure. Now, if there was any cost at all to the taxpayer from them adding charges to the OnRoutes, then I'd agree with you.

Moreover, I'd argue for efficiency. Tesla can achieve a lot more throughput with a handful of their propreitary spots, than competing standards.

Lastly, the only people really losing out at the food service operators at the OnRoutes. Canadian Tire has succeeeded in driving away customers who can afford $100 000 cars. Explain how this is great for them.

[ars]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Discourages further uptake of electric vehicles. Moreover, I'd rather not pass up on companies offering to build infrastructure. Now, if there was any cost at all to the taxpayer from them adding charges to the OnRoutes, then I'd agree with you.

I don't believe installing open standard level 2 or level 3 chargers would discourage electric vehicle uptake. On the other hand, letting Tesla Superchargers have a monopoly over OnRoutes would only encourage uptake of Tesla's electric cars and cater only to Tesla owners. And yes, Ontario taxpayers would be footing part of the bill because of charging infrastructure subsidies.

I've encountered enough "Tesla-only" charging spots to consider them a nuisance now because, in my opinion, electric car charging stations shouldn't be limited to one make.

Moreover, I'd argue for efficiency. Tesla can achieve a lot more throughput with a handful of their propreitary spots, than competing standards.

Not true, look up SAE Combo DC charger. It's a successor to the SAE J1772, it's open standard, charges just as fast as Tesla's Superchargers, is backwards compatible with SAE J1772, and, most importantly, is already available on many electric cars and will probably be available on most new electric cars coming out in the future.

Lastly, the only people really losing out at the food service operators at the OnRoutes. Canadian Tire has succeeeded in driving away customers who can afford $100 000 cars. Explain how this is great for them.

Do you know how many Tesla's are in Ontario? Just over 3000(based on sales)

If even half of those went through any OnRoute on a single given day, that would still be only a fraction of the total car traffic for all the OnRoutes on that day. I have a feeling that the food service operators don't really care.

Not to mention that I already stated that Tesla's come with a SAE J1772 adapter and Tesla owners would not be missing out on anything other EV owners have. (And actually many Tesla owners welcome the installation of any charging station, not just Superchargers).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ars

I don't believe installing open standard level 2 or level 3 chargers would discourage electric vehicle uptake. On the other hand, letting Tesla Superchargers have a monopoly over OnRoutes would only encourage uptake of Tesla's electric cars and cater only to Tesla owners.

A ridiculous strawman. I have never said that Tesla should be given a monopoly on charging at OnRoutes. Presumably, they'd have a few stalls and other operators could provide the same.

Originally Posted by ars

And yes, Ontario taxpayers would be footing part of the bill because of charging infrastructure subsidies.

About the same subsidies anybody is getting. I can get a subsidy and put up a charger in my garage and monopolize it completely. So unless we're going to insist that all subsidized chargers be public access, this is a moot topic.

Personally, I don't agree with subsidies for any EVs. I think high gas prices will drive electrification anyway. But that's a different discussion.

Originally Posted by ars

I've encountered enough "Tesla-only" charging spots to consider them a nuisance now because, in my opinion, electric car charging stations shouldn't be limited to one make.

Looks to me like pure envy on your part. "I couldn't afford a Tesla so I think they shouldn't be privileged." Do you complain when the valets park the nice cars in front of hotels and restaurants? What about when executives get reserved parking spots?

What's it to you if a business wants to reserve spots for Teslas? How exactly have you lost out on anything? Indeed, perhaps you should ask your EV maker why they aren't following Tesla's lead and giving out free EVSE to places that want it. Tesla's actively markets destination chargers and gives the gear out for free:

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/more-about-destination-charging.pdf

That's what has Tesla customers getting reserved spots. Those Tesla customers have paid more for their Teslas exactly so that Tesla can do this.

Originally Posted by ars

Do you know how many Tesla's are in Ontario? Just over 3000(based on sales).

There could be one Tesla in Ontario for all I care. It's utterly ridiculous to cost those vendors sales on terrible policy, or in your case, flat out envy.

And that 3000 will probably start hitting exponential growth rates when their cheaper models start shipping here. Not to mention the fact that those 3000 Teslas constitute at least 30% of ALL plug-in vehicles and closer to half of all BEVs in Ontario:

http://www.fleetcarma.com/ev-sales-canada-2016-final/

And given range numbers, I strongly suspect that Teslas make up most of the BEVs doing long distance travel. I doubt many Nissan Leaf owners are road tripping with their cars.

Originally Posted by ars

I have a feeling that the food service operators don't really care.

They'll start asking when there are a lot more Teslas on the road. Because it's not just the number of cars, it's the incomes of those drivers and their stopping time that is relevant to those sales.

Originally Posted by ars

Not to mention that I already stated that Tesla's come with a SAE J1772 adapter and Tesla owners would not be missing out on anything other EV owners have. (And actually many Tesla owners welcome the installation of any charging station, not just Superchargers).

An irrelevant argument since the vast, vast majority of them will charge at Superchargers because:

1) Free
2) Faster
3) Brand loyalty. I doubt most of them trust non-Tesla stuff to touch their cars that often.

[ars]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Looks to me like pure envy on your part. "I couldn't afford a Tesla so I think they shouldn't be privileged." Do you complain when the valets park the nice cars in front of hotels and restaurants? What about when executives get reserved parking spots?

Yeah this statement crossed the line for me, you don't know my financial situation and it's unacceptable for you to speculate on it. I'm done "discussing" this topic with you, didn't even bother reading the rest of your points/non-points.

Also, funny that you ignored my point about the SAE Combo DC charger which completely invalidates your entire argument, it's ok to accept you're wrong sometimes you know.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ars

Yeah this statement crossed the line for me, you don't know my financial situation and it's unacceptable for you to speculate on it. I'm done "discussing" this topic with you, didn't even bother reading the rest of your points/non-points.

If you come off a certain way, that's not on me. That's on you. Calling it like I see it.

Or did you not know that Tesla gives out free EVSE to all those places?

Originally Posted by ars

Also, funny that you ignored my point about the SAE Combo DC charger which completely invalidates your entire argument, it's ok to accept you're wrong sometimes you know.

I ignored it for a reason. First, not widespread enough. And next, doesn't negate any of what I said about why Tesla owners would want to charge at the Superchargers.

But feel free to dodge....

[zzptichka]

Isn't Tesla charger is just a parking spot with a power outlet? I mean it's not like we are letting them build another gas station with convenience store next to it. Stuff like that should be automatic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Isn't Tesla charger is just a parking spot with a power outlet? I mean it's not like we are letting them build another gas station with convenience store next to it. Stuff like that should be automatic.

No. They have a proprietary charger that has high rates of charging. And is free to any Tesla owner. It's the proprietary thing that has ars all jazzed up about.

But the thing is, there's nothing saying that building a few Tesla chargers stops anybody else from putting up their chargers. Is 5 spots at any OnRoute really going to impact anybody?

This whole thing is turning into another Apple vs. Android debate. Tesla built a charging network with its own funds because they didn't think that the current charging standards or distribution of chargers was appropriate to inducing gasoline drivers to switch. Now you have people like Ars upset that they can't use the chargers that Tesla has paid for (or more accurately that their customers have paid for). Or that Tesla customers are getting preferred parking spots (because Tesla gives the property owners free charging equipment on condition that they reserve charging spots for Teslas). Moreover they want them excluded from convenient and sensible locations. That's nuts to me. Especially when Tesla is the only vehicle with decent enough range to do highway driving. I would bet money that Tesla's chargers get far more use than any of the chargers placed at OnRoutes.

[ars]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Isn't Tesla charger is just a parking spot with a power outlet? I mean it's not like we are letting them build another gas station with convenience store next to it. Stuff like that should be automatic.

No it's a fast charging station that looks like this:



Problem is, the charging plug on the station is exclusive to Tesla, meaning that non-Tesla electric vehicles can't use the station to charge because Tesla has a proprietary port and not the open standard SAE J1772 or SAE Combo DC ports that every other car has(think Apple's Lightning cable vs Micro USB/USB C).

On the flip side, every Tesla comes with a SAE J1772 adapter and Tesla is developing a SAE Combo DC adapter(which allows charging as fast as Tesla's supercharger), so no car really loses out if a charging station with SAE J1772/Combo DC is installed instead of a Tesla Supercharger.

It's all fine and dandy to proclaim that the two are not mutually exclusive, but unfortunately in practice I have rarely seen a Tesla-only charging station(Supercharger or otherwise) co-exist with an open standard charging station, it's usually only one or the other in a given location.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by ars

No it's a fast charging station that looks like this:



Problem is, the charging plug on the station is exclusive to Tesla, meaning that non-Tesla electric vehicles can't use the station to charge because Tesla has a proprietary port and not the open standard SAE J1772 or SAE Combo DC ports that every other car has(think Apple's Lightning cable vs Micro USB/USB C).

On the flip side, every Tesla comes with a SAE J1772 adapter and Tesla is developing a SAE Combo DC adapter(which allows charging as fast as Tesla's supercharger), so no car really loses out if a charging station with SAE J1772/Combo DC is installed instead of a Tesla Supercharger.

It's all fine and dandy to proclaim that the two are not mutually exclusive, but unfortunately in practice I have rarely seen a Tesla-only charging station(Supercharger or otherwise) co-exist with an open standard charging station, it's usually only one or the other in a given location.

While I'm enjoying your arguments, the following should be considered:

1. Yes, Tesla fronted millions and millions of customer's dollars to install the charging network. Otherwise, none of this would have worked and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So thank you Tesla. Now that we have more uptake, the rest will follow. Supercharges do not yet have pay-for-play capability. Their cars deal directly with the charge ports. Other chargers have pay stations/membership FOB readers, etc. Maybe one day this will be a thing. For now, Tesla isn't going to give free power to competitors.

2. Previously, the Nissan Leaf had a puny range that was embarrassing next to a Tesla (like, 5 years ago). A friend of mine used to joke that the free chargers at Ikea (which used to be the only 'charging network') are taken up by Leaf owners, because you needed to charge up just to be able to get home (therefore seeing them on a road trip, 60km at a time, is sad and slow). Tesla owners would park in the EV parking spot at Ikea and not even bother to plug in, because the spot was beside the door.

3. Thanks to Tesla, EV sales are being boosted, and about to hit the roof. You have several car manufacturer's committed to completely transforming their sales to EV within 5 years. This is an insane growth. Thank you Tesla.

4. The dinky, 4 spot 'charging station' at On-Routes, (or off the beaten path as per Tesla Superchargers) are not going to matter at all soon. With thousands of EV's on the road, the charging stations will be much, much, much larger, faster, and more efficient, and more centrally located. There are more orders for Tesla Model 3's than Mazda 3 sales in North America last year. Imagine in a few years what that'll look like.

5. Private sector charge stations are about to blow up. Gas stations have been playing chicken with eachother, not willing to put charge stations on their property, in order to continue the myth that EV range anxiety is still a thing. Once they start losing a lot of business, they'll either go belly up, or change with the times. Shell has started to roll out their fast charge network, putting stations on their lots.

6. Expecting the government to provide charging is ridiculous. People complain about networks in the north not being adequate. This is a private sector, market-driven problem. Tesla has given the boost needed to light the spark, pun intended. (which, by the way, was their vision and goal all along... Elon wasn't looking to build the #1 valued car company in the world, he wanted to force uptake of EV's). Expect Sun Country or Electric Circuit to produce gas-station type locations VERY soon.

[ars]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

While I'm enjoying your arguments, the following should be considered:

1. Yes, Tesla fronted millions and millions of customer's dollars to install the charging network. Otherwise, none of this would have worked and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So thank you Tesla. Now that we have more uptake, the rest will follow. Supercharges do not yet have pay-for-play capability. Their cars deal directly with the charge ports. Other chargers have pay stations/membership FOB readers, etc. Maybe one day this will be a thing. For now, Tesla isn't going to give free power to competitors.

2. Previously, the Nissan Leaf had a puny range that was embarrassing next to a Tesla (like, 5 years ago). A friend of mine used to joke that the free chargers at Ikea (which used to be the only 'charging network') are taken up by Leaf owners, because you needed to charge up just to be able to get home (therefore seeing them on a road trip, 60km at a time, is sad and slow). Tesla owners would park in the EV parking spot at Ikea and not even bother to plug in, because the spot was beside the door.

3. Thanks to Tesla, EV sales are being boosted, and about to hit the roof. You have several car manufacturer's committed to completely transforming their sales to EV within 5 years. This is an insane growth. Thank you Tesla.

4. The dinky, 4 spot 'charging station' at On-Routes, (or off the beaten path as per Tesla Superchargers) are not going to matter at all soon. With thousands of EV's on the road, the charging stations will be much, much, much larger, faster, and more efficient, and more centrally located. There are more orders for Tesla Model 3's than Mazda 3 sales in North America last year. Imagine in a few years what that'll look like.

5. Private sector charge stations are about to blow up. Gas stations have been playing chicken with eachother, not willing to put charge stations on their property, in order to continue the myth that EV range anxiety is still a thing. Once they start losing a lot of business, they'll either go belly up, or change with the times. Shell has started to roll out their fast charge network, putting stations on their lots.

6. Expecting the government to provide charging is ridiculous. People complain about networks in the north not being adequate. This is a private sector, market-driven problem. Tesla has given the boost needed to light the spark, pun intended. (which, by the way, was their vision and goal all along... Elon wasn't looking to build the #1 valued car company in the world, he wanted to force uptake of EV's). Expect Sun Country or Electric Circuit to produce gas-station type locations VERY soon.

I'm not going to contend any of your points because I actually agree with all of them.

I'm a big fan of Tesla and Elon Musk himself, he brought back EVs from the brink of death with his own bare hands. I have a Model 3 on preorder and would've bought a Model S if it wasn't for a few nagging details(contrary to popular beliefs and baseless assumptions, my finances isn't one of them).

That said, if it comes down to open standards vs proprietary standards, I will always back the open standard option because it is better for the customer in the long run.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ars

I'm not going to contend any of your points because I actually agree with all of them.

I'm a big fan of Tesla and Elon Musk himself, he brought back EVs from the brink of death with his own bare hands. I have a Model 3 on preorder and would've bought a Model S if it wasn't for a few nagging details(contrary to popular beliefs and baseless assumptions, my finances isn't one of them).

That said, if it comes down to open standards vs proprietary standards, I will always back the open standard option because it is better for the customer in the long run.

I agree with everything. Tesla has done amazing work.. but we need to have universal open standards.

I hate Apple with the passion of a thousand burning suns (I will never be caught dead with Apple anything) for their constant use of Apple-exclusive stuff instead of following the open standards that literally everyone else uses; I hope I don't have to hate Tesla too.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ars

Problem is, the charging plug on the station is exclusive to Tesla, meaning that non-Tesla electric vehicles can't use the station to charge because Tesla has a proprietary port and not the open standard SAE J1772 or SAE Combo DC ports that every other car has(think Apple's Lightning cable vs Micro USB/USB C).

On the flip side, every Tesla comes with a SAE J1772 adapter and Tesla is developing a SAE Combo DC adapter(which allows charging as fast as Tesla's supercharger), so no car really loses out if a charging station with SAE J1772/Combo DC is installed instead of a Tesla Supercharger.

Simple question. How many J1772/Combo DC charger have been deployed in Ontario?

Originally Posted by ars

It's all fine and dandy to proclaim that the two are not mutually exclusive, but unfortunately in practice I have rarely seen a Tesla-only charging station(Supercharger or otherwise) co-exist with an open standard charging station, it's usually only one or the other in a given location.

There's nothing stopping anybody from building another charger with a different standard right beside the Tesla Supercharger. The reality is that Tesla is the only one willing to make the investment. They shouldn't be penalized for that by being banished to less convenient locations. In fact, one would hope that Tesla deploying chargers at OnRoutes would spur similar investment from other OEMs

Originally Posted by ars

I have a Model 3 on preorder and would've bought a Model S if it wasn't for a few nagging details(contrary to popular beliefs and baseless assumptions, my finances isn't one of them).

That said, if it comes down to open standards vs proprietary standards, I will always back the open standard option because it is better for the customer in the long run.

Are you not going to use Tesla Superchargers with your Model 3 because of your belief in Open Standards?

I hope you see the implications for your arguments that they should be prevented from putting up chargers at OnRoutes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I agree with everything. Tesla has done amazing work.. but we need to have universal open standards.

I hate Apple with the passion of a thousand burning suns (I will never be caught dead with Apple anything) for their constant use of Apple-exclusive stuff instead of following the open standards that literally everyone else uses; I hope I don't have to hate Tesla too.

Ars gets to argue from hindsight about open standards. Look at what the charging standards were when Tesla first started building Superchargers. And that's aside from the fact that no other OEM has bothered investing a charging network till this year.

To argue that an open standard exists so Tesla shouldn't be allowed to build superchargers at the OnRoutes ignores two major issues:

1) A standard existing doesn't mean there's widespread deployment of chargers.

2) The addition of open standard chargers doesn't account for the fact that Tesla pays to operate the chargers. You won't see other OEMs offering to fill up Tesla's with 70-90 kWh of electricity. So why should Tesla be pushed to fuel everybody else for free?

[ars]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I agree with everything. Tesla has done amazing work.. but we need to have universal open standards.

I hate Apple with the passion of a thousand burning suns (I will never be caught dead with Apple anything) for their constant use of Apple-exclusive stuff instead of following the open standards that literally everyone else uses; I hope I don't have to hate Tesla too.

Agreed.

Apple's knack for using proprietary hardware and software in lieu of open standards(not in all cases, but in most cases) is what irks me the most about their business model. The last thing we need is similar fragmentation in the e-automotive space where not being able to charge your car can literally be the difference between getting to your destination as planned and having to call a tow truck.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa EV charging stations delayed
Meant to open by March 31, seven still listed as "coming soon"

Published on Mon Jul 31 2017

Four months after Ontario’s network of electric vehicle (EV) charging stations should have opened, only two-thirds of Ottawa’s stations are finished.

The Ministry of Transportation’s website lists 11 stations as “in service” and seven stations as “coming soon,” including stations not yet open in Barrhaven, Kanata, downtown and Old Ottawa East.

They should have been finished by March 31, but Bob Nichols, the ministry's spokesperson, said they will now open this fall.

“The time it takes to install, test and put a charging station into operation varies in each case," he said in an email, adding each partner dealt with unique circumstances, including "geography, available infrastructure and utility services.”

Last July, the province announced it would spend $20 million to build 500 charging stations with 24 partners.

Ottawa was meant to get 19 stations, but will settle for 18, after some stations were dropped — including one in Manotick and another in Gloucester — and others were added.

Nichols said participants submitted a list of locations ahead of time, but “as work progressed with their delivery partners, it was necessary for some of them to change the location of some of the charging stations.”

New sites were signed-off by the ministry, he said.

Gérard Gavrel, president of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa, said he doesn’t believe they chose the right locations, especially compared to the situation in Quebec.

“It’s beautiful. You can now drive anywhere in Quebec with an electric car and you’ve now got charging stations all over the place,” he said, adding this is not the case in Ontario.

The provincially funded stations make up a small fraction of those available. Ottawa-Gatineau has 88 EV charging stations, according to Plugshare.com.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2017/07/31/ottawa-ev-charging-stations-delayed.html

[waterloowarrior]

An 8 stall Supercharger is being built in the Rideau Centre parking garage
https://np.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7d58e3/ottawa_on_rideau_centre_urban_surpercharger_8/

[rocketphish]

City plan for more electric car charging stations could cost you
Proposal likely to mean price differences between stations across city

By Kimberley Molina, CBC News
Posted: Nov 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Nov 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET

The city's plan to build more charging stations could make it more expensive for people to charge their electric vehicles.

The City of Ottawa wants to start charging people to charge cars at stations installed after December 2017.

Currently, the city operates three free charging stations at John G. Mlacak Community Centre, City Hall and the Glebe Parking Garage. It also operates a pay station at the Goulbourn Recreation Complex.

There are also many more privately operated stations and some installed through a provincial program, all with varying rates.

"In a sense, there's a bit of a hodgepodge until now of different unpredictable availability, free, not free, different rates," said Coun. David Chernuskenko, chair of the Environment and Climate Protection Committee. But that hodgepodge will likely continue.

The proposal being presented at Tuesday's Environment and Climate Protection Committee would see the city build more charging stations, but with different rates than what it currently charges.

The variable pricing will be tied to the 'level' of charge your vehicle takes. So called Level 1 stations, at 120 volts, are currently free and will remain free.

Level 2 stations, which operate at 240 volts, will have a $3.50 flat fee at future Park and Ride parking lots and $2.00 per hour at other city sites. The third level of charge is the DC Fast Charger station. The city would charge 28 cents per minute at these stations, which connect directly to the car's battery and essentially super charge it in as little as 30 minutes.

The president of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa, Gerard Gavrel, isn't impressed with the plan.

"They've got different fees depending on where you are. So, what that's going to do is at the expensive charging stations, nobody will go to them. They'll all go to the cheaper ones," said Gavrel, who called the plan ridiculous.

"If you figure out a fee structure, the fee structure should be the same for every station," said Gavrel, who adds electric car drivers could cross into Quebec where prices are standardized across the province.

"People will come and use the charging stations in Quebec because they're cheaper."

But Chernushenko disagrees.

"They're far enough apart right now that I don't think you'll get anyone flocking because you'd be crossing town just to get somewhere to plug in your vehicle and we're really talking cents here," he said.

"Often what's not well understood by a lot of people is a fully charged vehicle is about $5 in most cases and really people are just looking to top up for a dollar or two so I don't think you're going to get people travelling across town just to get a slightly different rate."

Adding more stations will also help cut down on range anxiety, the fear you could run out of juice before being able to charge up, he said.

However, he does think the city rates should be comparable to other charging stations. Electric Circuit, a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec, charges $1/hr for Level 2 chargers and $17/hr for its DC fast chargers.

Electric Circuit charges $1 per hour at some Level 2 stations and a $4 flat rate at others, along with $17 per hour at DC fast-charging stations.

The report will be presented at the Environment and Climate Protection Committee on Tuesday and at council on December 13.

A map of most charging stations can be viewed here.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/electric-vehicle-charging-stations-ottawa-1.4402576

[MoreTrains]

I never understood why the chargers would be provided for free in the first place. The city doesn't provide free gasoline or diesel in certain parking spots so why electricity? Luckily for those driving E Cars, electricity is cheaper than gas and usually the chargers are in very good spots (basically next to accessible parking).