Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I'm soooooo over people blaming the west side's lack of vibrancy on the homeless. The homeless aren't why people are hanging out on the west side! There is nothing on the west side to get people to hang out over there! Pallet, The Rose Establishment, Finca, and The Depot. are the only businesses worth crossing West Temple for. It has nothing to do with the homeless. The Depot sells out shows all the time because it is one of the few things worth checking out over there but when the show is over they head back downtown to the bars. Not because of the homeless but because 'Bout Time is the only option over there and it's chain joke of a bar. The Gateway didn't fail because of the homeless. It failed because a bigger better mall got built in the heart of downtown. Anyone that thinks that homeless population destroys an area of a city has never been to Haight Street in San Francisco. The homeless people on Haight are mean and aggressive and yet it is a thriving part of town BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS WORTH DOING THERE! The new owners of The Gateway are doing just what they should. Putting in entertainment that will attract people to the west side.

Dang your sensitive on this subject. Obviously it bothers the people bringing it up. Homeless people don't typically keep me out of parts of cities, but I do know a lot and I mean a lot of people who avoid places that tend to have high amounts of homeless people. Its not that anyone thinks they are higher than they or anything like that, its because a lot of homeless people don't really seem to care about how the city looks, they tend to be very trashy and leave garbage everywhere, and I'm not sure if you've been listening to the news lately but all around America there has been a surge of violent crimes committed by a lot of homeless people. Lots of stabbing and even some deaths. Certainly you can see to an extent why people would avoid those areas.

Sure its not the only reason why an area isn't vibrant, as lots of people will still go to areas with them. But it is a reason and its a very real reason. I believe Utah is the largest family state and tend to have the highest birth rate out of any state in the US, who would feel comfortable taking their kids to an area full of homeless people. I recently had a lot of family from Colorado visit San Antonio, they were so excited to do the river walk there. When they came back they said they couldn't even enjoy it because you couldn't go 2 minutes without someone begging for money. And they didn't make the city look too desirable. I personally wouldn't willingly move to a part of the city filled with them. You even have the side of it where it could effect your resale value and value on homes and apartments. So yes it very well can effect the vibrancy of a city. A lot (not all) but a lot of tourist don't want to be around them. A lot of people don't want to live around them. And a lot (maybe not you) but a lot of people don't really want to be walking around them unless the location was already vibrant and you feel comfortable and safe being with so many other people. Another thing, there are people who live in downtown's who will go out of their way to avoid homeless people (go to the last couple pages of the Denver main thread) there were some people on that thread yesterday or today who said they literally go out of their way to avoid the homeless groups. I don't blame them. Another thing that tends to come along with homeless groups.... Drugs, drug dealers, and lots of problems. There may be a lot of homeless people in that vibrant part of San Fran, but I guarantee you it was vibrant before the homeless started showing up, now there is enough people around the area there where people feel more comfortable. Denver's 16th street mall (an outdoor city mall), anyone who went 2 or 3 years ago would remember the shear amount of homeless people there. The mall wasn't as crowded. It got so bad that Businesses on 16th street started complaining to the city that all the homeless people where starting to really negatively effect their business, as many people started to not feel comfortable enough to go to the mall. 16th street started to struggle so much that the city decided it was enough and they stepped in and made it illegal to camp out downtown and various other things. Now 16th street is vibrant as ever and there is very few homeless still on the streets. Lots of protesters, but people started to come back downtown.

I don't know what made you so sensitive on this subject but there are proven facts that large amounts of homeless people can negatively effect an area. Even if its a vibrant area with lots of homeless, Imagine all the more vibrant it would be when there will be no homeless people around and the rest of the people would feel comfortable.

I know your also saying that the west side doesn't have anything worth going to, but why would a developer want to build something like that in an area filled with homeless people and no vibrancy at all? I wouldn't waste money on street level retail if I knew that not many companies are going to be willing to open a business in there. There is a gas station close to where I work, and everyone at my work and in the surrounding areas refuse to give their business to them simply because there are so many homeless people around there. You cannot get out of your own car to gas up without being bombarded by tons of homeless begging for gas and money. It gets ridiculous. Sure I don't mind helping them out once in a while but when its a constant bickering and begging around an area people will tend to stop doing business in that particular area.

Also, you cannot compare the vibrancy in San Francisco to Salt Lake's vibrancy problems. That is not fair to Salt Lake at all. Part of the reason San Fran is so vibrant is because it literally is the second most dense city in America. And has been long before thousands of homeless people started showing up there. Salt Lake has to fight through the horrible homeless scene already trying to develop a vibrant and dense city. Most people who go to downtown Salt Lake live in the outskirts. Salt Lake depends a lot on the residents of the suburbs. And they need to feel comfortable enough to come in. I agree there needs to be more ground level retail, but developers are going to want to put them only in the areas that are nicer/more vibrant already.

Average density---- Salt Lake: 1,678 people per square mile ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City ); San Francisco: 18,581 people per square mile ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco ) ----Makes a huge difference

Now its not the only problem for that area, but it is one of the problems, and it is a bigger issue than you are making it out to be.

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I'm soooooo over people blaming the west side's lack of vibrancy on the homeless. The homeless aren't why people are hanging out on the west side! There is nothing on the west side to get people to hang out over there! Pallet, The Rose Establishment, Finca, and The Depot. are the only businesses worth crossing West Temple for. It has nothing to do with the homeless. The Depot sells out shows all the time because it is one of the few things worth checking out over there but when the show is over they head back downtown to the bars. Not because of the homeless but because 'Bout Time is the only option over there and it's chain joke of a bar. The Gateway didn't fail because of the homeless. It failed because a bigger better mall got built in the heart of downtown. Anyone that thinks that homeless population destroys an area of a city has never been to Haight Street in San Francisco. The homeless people on Haight are mean and aggressive and yet it is a thriving part of town BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS WORTH DOING THERE! The new owners of The Gateway are doing just what they should. Putting in entertainment that will attract people to the west side.

It would also help if new construction in the area would stop treating the street as something to be avoided and actually build ground floor uses to engage with it. The excuse that there is already more than enough retail in the area, so it doesn't make sense to have ground floor retail is bullshit. Look at portland, or Santa Monica in LA – they aren't huge cities, but every single apartment, office building, etc. has retail or other active ground floor uses. They succeed because those developers know how to develop active uses. Not every retail slot has to be filled with a national chain. Fill them with small gyms, laundromats, local eateries, pilates studios, dental offices. Developers here are allowed to be either too lazy or too greedy to do what it takes to activate ground floor spaces.

[airportvids]

Or we could just fill all those ground level retail shops with "title loan" businesses.
Sorry but there is a lack of demand for ground level retail space for EVERY single development here in Salt Lake. Developers know this.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by airportvids

Or we could just fill all those ground level retail shops with "title loan" businesses.
Sorry but there is a lack of demand for ground level retail space for EVERY single development here in Salt Lake. Developers know this.

I think sometimes they should view it as an amenity. Something that increases the value of their building to residents in the same way a pool might (but much cheaper) I think there is a hidden demand to live in that type of building.

More developers really should be trying to include some small incubator space. I think you have to look at it almost as a cost that increases the value of the rest of your project. Definitely tell the title loan places thanks but no thanks.

[asies1981]

Post on the state of downtown report. Also photos and update on the Vivint Smart Home Arena.

[ThePusherMan]

At what point does beating the homeless dead horse get beaten so much that it is no longer a horse. Just beaten into fine powder so that every time you beat on it the powder flies into the air and you breathe it into your lungs. Then, in a way, you become the homeless dead horse and you just have to carry it with you always. Never being able to enjoy anything ever again. Just carry around the weight of Salt Lake's homeless with you until you eventually die of the lung cancer, caused by the homeless dead horse dust that you breathed in one too many times complaining about the homeless...

But seriously, I get what you are saying about having kids and avoiding areas populated with people experiencing homelessness. I'm sure if I had kids I would probably not want them around that kind of stuff. However, I would say that city's in general aren't really family friendly if we are being honest. People who populate an urban core are young single people who don't have to worry about their kids. And those people should be tough enough to walk by some homeless people without feeling like the world is going to end. If they can't, they probably should just not live in city. I still maintain the west side is dead because of it's lack of things to do.

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Post on the state of downtown report. Also photos and update on the Vivint Smart Home Arena.

J dawgs is a great vendor choice for the arena. I'm excited to head to a Jazz game next season and check out the improvements.

[bob rulz]

It's true that more things to do on the west side of downtown is one reason for the reduced vibrancy, but one of the reasons why there's not a lot of things to do is because developers are reluctant to build in the area because of the homeless problem. If there were more things to do, it's true that people would go regardless of the homeless situation, but the homeless situation certainly prevents things from going there. They are not separate issues.

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

It's true that more things to do on the west side of downtown is one reason for the reduced vibrancy, but one of the reasons why there's not a lot of things to do is because developers are reluctant to build in the area because of the homeless problem. If there were more things to do, it's true that people would go regardless of the homeless situation, but the homeless situation certainly prevents things from going there. They are not separate issues.

I don't believe that developers are reluctant to build on the west side because, well, of the huge projects that are being built all over the west side! The west side just isn't cool yet. It will get there. It's just gunna take some time. Not a disappearing act from the homeless.

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I don't believe that developers are reluctant to build on the west side because, well, of the huge projects that are being built all over the west side! The west side just isn't cool yet. It will get there. It's just gunna take some time. Not a disappearing act from the homeless.

Your dead horse powder analogy is really weird, and kind of gross! Like almost made me lose my appetite!

But they aren't separate issues, and it's not just a Salt Lake problem, its most large cities. If you look at most cities, it's the areas with some of the highest concentration of homeless people that tend to get some of the least amount of development. Say if I were wanting to develop something awesome in Salt Lake, I'm going to put it in the nicer part of town with the least amount of homeless people and druggies because In My Mind that is where I would have the best chance to succeed. And I guarantee you developers think in a very similar way as I do. If I'm going to invest this amount of money into something then I'm for darn sure going to put it in the best part of town to really attract people. Therefore leaving the homeless riddin area still baren

[Comrade]

Blaming the homeless problem is convenient. Fact is, there's a huge stretch of dead area west of West Temple to 300 West - where the homeless problem isn't much an issue.

[Marvland]

I think you are all right in your own special ways. I know I avoid Rio Grande proper. I don't avoid Gateway because of Rio Grande. I avoid Gateway because it blows. So there's that. Vestar is not messing around though. I've seen their plans and renderings and it's impressive if they can pull it all together. Th homeless problem is not even close to Haigth-Ashubry in SF. Rio Grande way way way worse, but SF has other areas that are comparable. Congrats to us, RG is one of the worst Hamsterdams in the country and it's a scourge, there's no real way else to put it. Nobody has any real answers so brace yourselves for even worse if it's even possible.

On the development side, the Salt Lake City RDA is the major land banker in the Gateway District and has been since it went on a buying spree years ago. The RDA used to fancy itself (and still sort of does) a kind of king-maker, but that is changing. They have actively been pursuing the disposition of its excess land as the RFP/kingmaking process has proven a terrible model. They, and SLC Corp, need to sell their parcels and get them producing. That's not letting the developer community off the hook in our town. They mostly suck and that's why I'm so excited that people like Patrinely are working here. We need new blood.

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I don't believe that developers are reluctant to build on the west side because, well, of the huge projects that are being built all over the west side! The west side just isn't cool yet. It will get there. It's just gunna take some time. Not a disappearing act from the homeless.

I'm not about blaming the homeless because they are a reflection of our society's priorities. But there are several developers, including Boyer, who won't build on the west side until the situation improves.

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by airportvids

Or we could just fill all those ground level retail shops with "title loan" businesses.
Sorry but there is a lack of demand for ground level retail space for EVERY single development here in Salt Lake. Developers know this.

Ground floor retail can mean a lot of things other than ice cream shops and clothing stores. There are many amenities lacking in downtown to fill those spaces – most developers just want an instant return on their investment, and retail spaces can take a little time to fill. If enough developers are required to include active ground floor uses in certain zones, they will find that the energy that creates will attract tenants. The reason some developers are having a hard time finding retail tenants is because neighboring developments have not been required to do the same and that makes a neighborhood sterile and unattractive to foot traffic.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by DMTower

Ground floor retail can mean a lot of things other than ice cream shops and clothing stores. There are many amenities lacking in downtown to fill those spaces – most developers just want an instant return on their investment, and retail spaces can take a little time to fill. If enough developers are required to include active ground floor uses in certain zones, they will find that the energy that creates will attract tenants. The reason some developers are having a hard time finding retail tenants is because neighboring developments have not been required to do the same and that makes a neighborhood sterile and unattractive to foot traffic.

Was this one of the issues the city was looking at to making changes too along 4th south? Or was the city just trying to avoid block length developments. I don't know enough about our zoning laws but perhaps in certain areas a ground floor retail or mixed use requirement could be put in place depending on the size of a buildings foot print. I think 4th south should have this requirement based on a building foot print. I think the city council was working on some adjustments similar to this. I would like to see other streets identified and zoned in such away that these developments would be clustered together to generate mixed use areas. A little organization would be helpful.

[DCRes]

I heard a rumor that a small Harmon's is going in the retail space at the 4th West apartments. This came from someone who lives in Rose Park, who heard it from a construction worker. I don't know if it is true or not, but thought I would pass it on.

[bob rulz]

They're already building a store in Holladay, and planning one in Riverton. Not to mention that would be pretty close to their City Creek location. I would be pretty skeptical, though I guess it's not impossible.

[ThePusherMan]

The west side of downtown could use a grocery store though. Hope something like that happens.

[EPdesign]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

The west side of downtown could use a grocery store though. Hope something like that happens.

And a gym

[ajiuO]

Even after City Creek opened I continued to hang out at gateway because they had more stores that I liked. I don’t know what happened but it started seeming like the homeless people were growing in numbers and becoming more aggressive. There were a lot of sketchy people who were obviously strung out on drugs. I went from feeling safe walking home from gateway at midnight to not feeling comfortable walking there in the middle of the day... in less then a year. That’s why I stoped going there and I know many other people who stopped going there for the same reason. The stores started closing because no one was going there.

I guess you can blame part of it on the mall owners for letting the place become over run... even now with the stepped up security it can be pretty scary over there. My mom works over there so I here all kinds of stories. The other day she sent me a video of some homeless guy that the cops were talking down because he staked some lady.

So to say the homeless people are not a good part of the problem over there is comparatively BS. It’s not all homeless people. But it is the homeless drug culture tht has been skyrocketing in the area over the past few years.