VIA Rail network developments

[MichelKazan]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is interesting that a new station is planned for Dorion. Are they trying to attract local commuter traffic traveling into Montreal?

That or the town of Vaudreuil-Dorion has one of the largest population growth rates of any municipality in Quebec. As a result, such a station would make sense.

[Truenorth00]

Some of the stations make sense. Tweed would serve Hastings County quite well. Sharbot Lake? An hour from Kingston. Don't see much benefit. And no station between Eglinton and Peterborough is definitely a fail. They need an eastern GTA station just outside the 416 to cover Scarborough, Markham and Durham region.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What's the relevance? There will still be Kingston-Ottawa service via Smith Falls, no?

Possibly (it isn't clear). Even if there is, it will be at a lower frequency.

Originally Posted by Dado

Considering that it would be difficult to build a single VIA station anywhere that's actually near to Smiths Falls to serve both the Peterborough and Brockville routes given the alignments of the various tracks and how they would have to connect,

It depends where they build the stub to connect the subdivisions. I suspect it would be south of where the Smiths Falls Sub crosses Hwy 15, to avoid having a second crossing. If so, a station just north of that would work.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is interesting that a new station is planned for Dorion. Are they trying to attract local commuter traffic traveling into Montreal?

I suspect it is to replace the Coteau station. It looks like they plan to use CP's tracks to Dorion instead of CN's. This would avoid having to wait for a CP freight train when crossing their mainline. Optimally they would buy the track from CP (and give them the bit of the southern bit of the Alexandria Sub to connect to CN's mainline), but even if they don't, they could probably manage just fine as CP had double track there but only single track west of Smiths Falls, so they likely aren't near capacity.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Possibly (it isn't clear). Even if there is, it will be at a lower frequency.



It depends where they build the stub to connect the subdivisions. I suspect it would be south of where the Smiths Falls Sub crosses Hwy 15, to avoid having a second crossing. If so, a station just north of that would work.



I suspect it is to replace the Coteau station. It looks like they plan to use CP's tracks to Dorion instead of CN's. This would avoid having to wait for a CP freight train when crossing their mainline. Optimally they would buy the track from CP (and give them the bit of the southern bit of the Alexandria Sub to connect to CN's mainline), but even if they don't, they could probably manage just fine as CP had double track there but only single track west of Smiths Falls, so they likely aren't near capacity.

Good point. Also because of the amount passenger train traffic proposed? There will still be passenger trains on the CN route, so there may be an issue of running both traditional passenger trains and HFR trains on the same track between Coteau and Montreal Central Station. So, they are spreading the load between the CN and CP tracks. This is not a problem in Toronto since the two routes are entering the city on completely different routes.

Will HFR share one of the GO Train routes entering Toronto?

[acottawa]

I wonder how long the CN service would last, certainly east of Kingston, without the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal traffic.

[Buggys]

There's a provincial park at Sharbot Lake. It would be really neat if one could take a quick train trip from the city to visit peaceful nature, and travel peacefully without having to drive.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder how long the CN service would last, certainly east of Kingston, without the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal traffic.

Can be made to work. Not in the current form of 6 car trains. More than likely you have 2 or 3 car DMUs. And Kingston becomes a hub with 3 services terminating there:

Toronto-Kingston
Montreal-Kingston
Ottawa-Kingston

Once you place a hub at Kingston and decouple Toronto-Kingston from Montreal-Kingston and Ottawa-Kingston, you'll actually improve reliability. And since fewer passengers will be transferring in Kingston, slippage here or there (due to CN traffic) will impact far fewer riders overall.

Probably 2-car DMUs and no business class I figure. Or maybe a split wit 3-car DMUs on Toronto-Kingston and 2-car DMUs on Montreal-Kingston and Ottawa-Kingston. DMUs are perfect for sparsely populated regions like so many in our country. Something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit#/media/File:SA_134-012_Brzeg_27.03.2009.jpg

Or this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Pesa_-_ATR220.019_a_Nard%C3%B2.jpg

A great example from Australia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5wnmkTQF2A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transwa_WDA/WDB/WDC_class

Also, these services will be far cheaper to run, while possibly even allowing for a boost in frequencies from today:

Toronto-Kingston (13 trips)
Montreal-Kingston (11 trips)
Ottawa-Kingston (9 trips)

Perhaps smaller trains might also help with siding construction to allow for better operating efficiency.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit#/media/File:SA_134-012_Brzeg_27.03.2009.jpg

Or this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Pesa_-_ATR220.019_a_Nard%C3%B2.jpg

But none of those are FRA-compliant. We could see something like this:

Union Pearson Express DMU 1010 [CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], by 분당선M (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons

or this:

WES DMU 2001 [CC BY 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)], by M.O. Stevens (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons

but more likely like this:

VIA 185 (Sudbury to White River) [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], by KReiss, from Wikimedia Commons

Also, these services will be far cheaper to run, while possibly even allowing for a boost in frequencies from today:

Toronto-Kingston (13 trips)
Montreal-Kingston (11 trips)
Ottawa-Kingston (9 trips)

I highly doubt we would see that level of service. IMHO we would be lucky if there wasn't a reduction in overall departures in Kingston. VIA is struggling to run as many trains as they do on CN's main line. I suspect one of their plans for getting CP's ROW is by arguing that it would be easier for CN and CP to share tracks than it is for CN and VIA to share tracks, which would necessitate a reduction in depatures.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But none of those are FRA-compliant. We could see something like this...

Sure enough. Just wanted to highlight the concept of a DMU. It's something we really forget in this country. And is widely used to provide small towns with decent rail service all over the world.

Originally Posted by roger1818

but more likely like this...

Let's hope there aren't enough on the second market for VIA to buy!

Originally Posted by roger1818

I highly doubt we would see that level of service. IMHO we would be lucky if there wasn't a reduction in overall departures in Kingston. VIA is struggling to run as many trains as they do on CN's main line. I suspect one of their plans for getting CP's ROW is by arguing that it would be easier for CN and CP to share tracks than it is for CN and VIA to share tracks, which would necessitate a reduction in depatures.

They are pledging hourly departures on the HFR corridor if I am not mistaken. So there will be an increase there.

I think a dozen departures on each of the Kingston corridors (spread over 18 hrs) is absolutely doable. Perhaps with better timings aimed at serving these communities rather than Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal riders (that alone would make some difference). The thing is, they can be a lot more fluid here since the bulk of their more lucrative passengers will be on the HFR line. We'll see. You could be right. But I'm hoping that this will be seen as a relatively easy win to maintain today's frequencies with a slightly more tailored schedule.

[acottawa]

Via is trying to sell HFR as a way to get the Corridor off a government subsidy. Not sure an elaborate (and probably expensive) transportation system for Kingston is too likely. Via won't even provide train service to Calgary.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It depends where they build the stub to connect the subdivisions. I suspect it would be south of where the Smiths Falls Sub crosses Hwy 15, to avoid having a second crossing. If so, a station just north of that would work.

Perhaps; given the approach geometry the radius would be virtually identical to that of the former connection just to the west between the Winchester and Chalk River Subs. It would be tighter than anything VIA goes through currently on revenue service (at least that I'm aware of).

That's why I think they'd want to move the connection quite a bit further north, which pushes the station well out of town, to the vicinity of Sturgess Rd.

I suspect it is to replace the Coteau station. It looks like they plan to use CP's tracks to Dorion instead of CN's. This would avoid having to wait for a CP freight train when crossing their mainline. Optimally they would buy the track from CP (and give them the bit of the southern bit of the Alexandria Sub to connect to CN's mainline), but even if they don't, they could probably manage just fine as CP had double track there but only single track west of Smiths Falls, so they likely aren't near capacity.

As far as I'm aware, CN owns that portion of the Alexandria Sub between the Kingston Sub and CP's Winchester Sub. There's some interchange tracks at de Beaujeu which CN must have retained when the rest of the Alexandria Sub was transferred to VIA (if memory serves, there was some brouhaha following the ice storm in which CN was making noises about not repairing the signalling on the Alexandria Sub and they ended up being strongarmed by then-transport minister David Collenette into handing it all over to VIA; Ottawa Central was spun off later that year with running rights over the length of the Alexandria Sub).

[Dado]

Originally Posted by roger1818

VIA is struggling to run as many trains as they do on CN's main line. I suspect one of their plans for getting CP's ROW is by arguing that it would be easier for CN and CP to share tracks than it is for CN and VIA to share tracks, which would necessitate a reduction in depatures.

Sorry, I don't follow your logic here. Which CP RoW are you referring to? The entire Winchester Sub or just the old Havelock Sub? Are you suggesting that VIA would try to force one of CN or CP onto the other's tracks?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dado

Sorry, I don't follow your logic here. Which CP RoW are you referring to? The entire Winchester Sub or just the old Havelock Sub? Are you suggesting that VIA would try to force one of CN or CP onto the other's tracks?

Probably not the entire Winchester Sub but possibly portion east of the Alexandria Sub junction as well as the Belleville Sub between Smiths Falls and the old Havelock Sub junction (at Glen Tay). That may not be feasible but I don't see how it could work any other way though as the CPR aren't very good about sharing their track (they're notorious for charging exorbitant cartage fees).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Via is trying to sell HFR as a way to get the Corridor off a government subsidy. Not sure an elaborate (and probably expensive) transportation system for Kingston is too likely. Via won't even provide train service to Calgary.

Sure. But HFR is not very sellable either, once communities losing servicing start yelling at their MPs and MPPs. They'll have to offer them something. And it's hard to imagine, "We're going to offer you half the frequencies," going over well.

I think VIA is making a calculated decision that HFR will offer enough profit to subsidize the DMU operations, which should be cheaper than what they run today. With a better optimize scheduled, they might get more commuter traffic to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal too.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But HFR is not very sellable either, once communities losing servicing start yelling at their MPs and MPPs. They'll have to offer them something. And it's hard to imagine, "We're going to offer you half the frequencies," going over well.

I think VIA is making a calculated decision that HFR will offer enough profit to subsidize the DMU operations, which should be cheaper than what they run today. With a better optimize scheduled, they might get more commuter traffic to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal too.

I thought the "profits" were going to pay for the capex?

It seems like the decision has already been made to throw the lakeshore communities under the bus. There is certainly no mention of a DMU plan in anything Via has put out. Cabinet could decide otherwise (either scrapping the northern route or putting big money into a new lakeshore service).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Some of the stations make sense. Tweed would serve Hastings County quite well.

And no station between Eglinton and Peterborough is definitely a fail. They need an eastern GTA station just outside the 416 to cover Scarborough, Markham and Durham region.

[/QUOTE]

I guess Tweed would serve Hastings County well in the sense that it is directly in the middle of the county. Pretty sparse pickings in terms of people up there.
More than 80% of the population of the county is along the 401 corridor though. Unlikely they will be driving to Tweed to catch HSR.

Agreed on the lack of an eastern GTA station. Maybe they don't want to replicate commuter rail in that area.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Here is a map from a June 29, 2017 VIA meeting with Frontenac County
https://frontenac.civicweb.net/FileStorage/370C6E9D99FA4F20AB75E8AEF77D3C3C-CAO Monthly Report July 2017 tj kjpfinal.pdf

LOL "EGLINGTON"

I'm assuming that the introduction of the HFR line via Peterborough is intended to take the bulk of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal traffic, but that the Lakeshore route would still be used for milk-run routes through the population centres, no?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Horus

LOL "EGLINGTON"

I'm assuming that the introduction of the HFR line via Peterborough is intended to take the bulk of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal traffic, but that the Lakeshore route would still be used for milk-run routes through the population centres, no?

I would assume the Toronto-Kingston services (650, 651, 655) would be unaffected. They would probably want to keep at least one milk run in each direction (probably the 64 and 65), maybe more depending on demand.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Horus

LOL "EGLINGTON"

I'm assuming that the introduction of the HFR line via Peterborough is intended to take the bulk of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal traffic, but that the Lakeshore route would still be used for milk-run routes through the population centres, no?

If we look at this Northern alignment in the long term, would it not perhaps be a means to also grow new ridership by increasing accessibility of the Hwy 7 corridor to non-drivers? I see this as an intelligent move, where by Via is hedging their bets on more affordable housing options to encourage more people to settle on the HFR alignment.

Thoughts?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

If we look at this Northern alignment in the long term, would it not perhaps be a means to also grow new ridership by increasing accessibility of the Hwy 7 corridor to non-drivers? I see this as an intelligent move, where by Via is hedging their bets on more affordable housing options to encourage more people to settle on the HFR alignment.

Thoughts?

I could see Peterborough picking up some Toronto commuters (it isn't much farther than Barrie). I couldn't see many people commuting from Tweed or Sharbot lake. I'm also not sure how many trains would actually stop at the smaller destinations (not many corridor trains stop in napanee, for example).