O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The bike lobby, despite how powerless they think themselves, is much better at pushing its pet projects than the disorganized transit lobby, such as it exists.

I fully support adding bike infrastructure wherever physically practicable and economically feasible, but some of the bike projects, like the Beechwood fiasco, have come at the expense of transit service, which is asbackwards.

Beachwood fiasco is even more of a fiasco from cycling POV than it is from transit POV. Hell there is no bike infrastructure there to begin with because paint is not infrastructure.
Both fiascos are results of parking&driving lobby and that's what you should be mad at in the first place.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Beachwood fiasco is even more of a fiasco from cycling POV than it is from transit POV. Hell there is no bike infrastructure there to begin with because paint is not infrastructure.
Both fiascos are results of parking&driving lobby and that's what you should be mad at in the first place.

It is true that many bike lanes have nothing to do with cycling safety and are only there to appease motorists and keep cyclists out of their way. I have to shake my head at many of Ottawa's bike lanes as they are designed to put cyclists in maximum danger.

[1overcosc]

And the parking crowd lost some its spaces anyway.. so really.. it just made things worse for everyone. Lovely.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Beachwood fiasco is even more of a fiasco from cycling POV than it is from transit POV. Hell there is no bike infrastructure there to begin with because paint is not infrastructure.
Both fiascos are results of parking&driving lobby and that's what you should be mad at in the first place.

No, the fiasco on Beechwood is the result of trying to shoehorn bike lanes - and yes, not very good ones - onto an important transit street that doesn't have room for everything being demanded of it.

And, as usual for downtownish streets, it's transit that was sacrificed to make room.

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Ottawa-Gatineau has grown by nearly 400,000 people in only 20 years, which reflects similar growth rate numbers experienced during the previous 50 years. It's one of those cities that sees moderate/high but steady growth. It's also a hard place to leave, so the majority of retiring boomers are not going anywhere. (Let me add that only a fraction of Ottawans are aware of the mad quality of life they enjoy.) Growth numbers will probably be around 1.5 to 2%, but this doesn't necessarily translate to the same percentage usage increases on the line... let's note that the massive project(s) planned for LeBreton and being built at Zibi (which will add 10 to 20,000 residents within minutes of the line) are sure to positively influence ridership.

The introduction of the Confederation Line may also lead to increased grassroots TOD appetite (see Toronto; and grassroots as opposed to top-down enforcement modestly successful here thus far). This would mean a greater uptake of transit as a mode of transportation among newcomers to the city.

I said it first: Confederation Line ridership growth will outstrip Ottawa's population growth rate!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We can't justify building a subway based on passenger traffic that supports a bus every 15 minutes and even twice that number during peak hours. 800 to 1000 passengers per hour in the peak direction?

We are fools to turn Montreal Road into a major bicycle route that cripples transit. I thought Laurier-Donald was to be the major bicycle route.

I'd be interested in seeing a population density comparison between the Montreal Road corridor in the heart of Vanier and population density along the TTC subway and Montreal metro corridors. It seems to me that both underground systems in those cities run through areas that are quite similar to the heart of Vanier in terms of urban form and population density.

I will happily stand correct if wrong though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

we open the POW bridge and start having Gatineau residents use the Confederation line to get downtown instead of buses, we could end up seeing almost twice as many people using the western Confederation Line to/from Downtown as the eastern line. .

Not gonna happen, for reasons discussed 100000000 times on here.

At least, not as the main option for getting to downtown Ottawa from Gatineau via transit.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd be interested in seeing a population density comparison between the Montreal Road corridor in the heart of Vanier and population density along the TTC subway and Montreal metro corridors. It seems to me that both underground systems in those cities run through areas that are quite similar to the heart of Vanier in terms of urban form and population density.

I will happily stand correct if wrong though.

Densest census track in Vanier is 7000/sq km
https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=4a91048a78064a3d955e5894bb2c8b65

Bloor corridor is in the 7k-11k per square km range. Yonge has a lot more variation
http://utoronto.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Sto...l?appid=81e2f9593a7843f79508b0e101b04c4e

But the issue isn't just the density in one census track. The pocket of density in Vanier is pretty small and surrounded by much lower density areas. Toronto and Montreal have neighbourhood after neighbourhood of high density areas.

Also, a lot of the subway traffic comes from bus transfers from arterial roads, there isn't really the equivalent to drive traffic on a theoretical Montreal/Rideau subway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That seems low considering Gatineau has about 1/3 (33%) the population of Ottawa? I would have thought a similar percentage of Gatineau residents would work in downtown Ottawa as Ottawa residents. ).

It's a large amount of people but wouldn't be nearly the same percentage as Ottawans working in downtown Ottawa IMO. Gatineau isn't anywhere near self-sustaining in terms of employment but it still has quite a bit. The Gatineau sector (former city of Gatineau) has a fairly significant amount of employment for a suburban-style area. I believe that "old Gatineau" has about four times as many jobs as Orleans, which has a similar population.

[Acajack]

I have a book that I can't easily quote on here that's from 2014. It's by a couple of University of Ottawa professors. It has a bunch of census and commuting data quoted in it, and one thing it says is that about 25% of Gatineau workers work in downtown Ottawa. Also just under 40% of all Gatineau workers work in Ottawa. So 25 of the 40 work in downtown Ottawa and another 15 of 40 work elsewhere in Ottawa.

Also about 45% of the people who hold down jobs located in the Hull sector of Gatineau are Ontario residents. When you consider that most of these are federal public servants, that means it's easily a majority of workers in the Terrasses-Portage district who are Ontario residents. (It's apparent to anyone who is familiar with the area in the daytime.)

Of course those workers from Ottawa in Hull are only a fraction of Ottawa's workforce. About 80-85% of Ottawa residents work in Ottawa. Much higher than the % of Gatinois who work in Gatineau.

All of which to say that some of the numbers being thrown around for the increase in O-Train passengers that could come from an expansion into Gatineau are probably a tad high. It's probably realistically in the 20% range cited by lrt's friend.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Densest census track in Vanier is 7000/sq km
https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=4a91048a78064a3d955e5894bb2c8b65

Sweet!

Did you make?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Sweet!

Did you make?

No, I just found it when I googled for density maps.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

No, I just found it when I googled for density maps.

Interesting map.

There are 3 census tracks of >10,000 density.

#1 and #3 at 12,000 and 11,000 respectively are in centretown, which is to be expected.

#2 at 11,400 is Heron Gate (not surprising, but interesting none-the-less).

[lrt's friend]

Notice the high density area of Orleans is on the Innes corridor and not on the chosen LRT route.

But to get a fully picture, we also need to see where employment concentration is as well.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have a book that I can't easily quote on here that's from 2014. It's by a couple of University of Ottawa professors. It has a bunch of census and commuting data quoted in it, and one thing it says is that about 25% of Gatineau workers work in downtown Ottawa. Also just under 40% of all Gatineau workers work in Ottawa. So 25 of the 40 work in downtown Ottawa and another 15 of 40 work elsewhere in Ottawa.

Also about 45% of the people who hold down jobs located in the Hull sector of Gatineau are Ontario residents. When you consider that most of these are federal public servants, that means it's easily a majority of workers in the Terrasses-Portage district who are Ontario residents. (It's apparent to anyone who is familiar with the area in the daytime.)

Of course those workers from Ottawa in Hull are only a fraction of Ottawa's workforce. About 80-85% of Ottawa residents work in Ottawa. Much higher than the % of Gatinois who work in Gatineau.

All of which to say that some of the numbers being thrown around for the increase in O-Train passengers that could come from an expansion into Gatineau are probably a tad high. It's probably realistically in the 20% range cited by lrt's friend.

My comment was based on the fact that transit ridership is significantly lower in Gatineau compared to Ottawa.

Nevertheless, we need a more integrated transit network. At the present time, it works against transit ridership particularly on the Gatineau side.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My comment was based on the fact that transit ridership is significantly lower in Gatineau compared to Ottawa.

Nevertheless, we need a more integrated transit network. At the present time, it works against transit ridership particularly on the Gatineau side.

Transit Ridership is less on the Gatineau side because no one wants to wait 30 min plus for a bus. That is the only problem i have living there. The Route 400 is the only bus that is a frequent route that comes every 15 min.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not gonna happen, for reasons discussed 100000000 times on here.

At least, not as the main option for getting to downtown Ottawa from Gatineau via transit.

I think the POW bridge works great as a secondary link. If it was extended over to Portage and Terraces it would be great for Ottawans heading to Gatineau (walking distance to the major employment areas + fast connection to Rapibus for trips further in), and it would also be great for Gatinois heading to western or southern Ottawa. But you're 100% right IMO that it would be a horrible choice for Gatinois headed to the downtown core of Ottawa.

I like to sum it up as this: As a interprovincial transit link, POW works well. As the interprovincial transit link, POW —.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think the POW bridge works great as a secondary link.

It won't happen if it is only planned to be the secondary link. It doesn't have to be the only link, but it won't be seen as worth spending the tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars needed to refurbish the bridge and open the line if it isn't going to become the primary mode of transit across the river.

If it was extended over to Portage and Terraces it would be great for Ottawans heading to Gatineau (walking distance to the major employment areas + fast connection to Rapibus for trips further in), and it would also be great for Gatinois heading to western or southern Ottawa. But you're 100% right IMO that it would be a horrible choice for Gatinois headed to the downtown core of Ottawa.

With that routing, I agree. IMHO, more likely path towards its construction follows construction of an Alymer LRT and if the interprovincial line is extended to Montcalm Rapibus Station (with a stop at Taché to connect to the Alymer LRT). It will then become great for anyone in Alymer or anyone using Rabpbus to get to Ottawa. Admittedly, for those in Hull or southern old Gatineau, it won't be so great. While a direct connection to Portage and Terraces would be good for commuters from Ottawa to Hull, there are some issues that make having both routes difficult, and a connection to the Alymer LRT would be considered a reasonable alternative by those in charge.

I like to sum it up as this: As a interprovincial transit link, POW works well. As the interprovincial transit link, POW —.

I don't disagree, but don't expect a route's suckyness to prevent it from being build. Just look at the planned Trillium Line extension with a double connections for everyone. Don't forget, Ottawa's objective in all of this would be to get Gatineau buses off of Ottawa streets, something a link to Portage and Terraces wouldn't effectively do.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Transit Ridership is less on the Gatineau side because no one wants to wait 30 min plus for a bus. That is the only problem i have living there. The Route 400 is the only bus that is a frequent route that comes every 15 min.

Potentially more importantly: no one wants to wait 30 minutes for a STO bus that can then take more than an hour to get you from A to B, where the driving time can be less than 1/5th of that, and where, for some origin-destination pairs, it's faster to walk.

It's slightly better now for parts of Hull and Gatineau with Rapibus, but the unbelievably bad route layouts make the STO system almost useless otherwise.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I like to sum it up as this: As a interprovincial transit link, POW works well. As the interprovincial transit link, POW —.

And yet people, inadvertently or deliberately, keep getting those two types of articles confused, and use that confusion as a basis to shout down LRT on the PoW bridge.