The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[MalcolmTucker]

[del]

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Only the Quebec Government has lower expenses per capita. Plenty of capacity for Ontario to fund new investment.

Taxes are near post WWII lows.

Indeed, and not to advocate for more taxes, but "taxed to the limit" is a myth that needs to die.

[ssiguy]

I tend to agree that all political parties in Ontario have come to the consensus that transit investment is no longer an extravagance to one of a necessity. The Tories know this and will act accordingly as they know that in order to form government they must get those key suburban ridings and all suburbs are screaming for more transit. It may not play too well in their traditional rural/small city vote but they already have those votes. They need the suburban votes as they are where elections are won and as the urban areas grow and rural areas stagnate or even decline all new seats will be in the cities so they must have policies that reflect that new reality or they will never get to QP.

Also no provincial government is going to say no to transit dollars now that the feds are pumping huge amounts into transit. It's easy and free money that buoys the economy and makes for great ribbon cutting ceremonies.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I tend to agree that all political parties in Ontario have come to the consensus that transit investment is no longer an extravagance to one of a necessity. The Tories know this and will act accordingly as they know that in order to form government they must get those key suburban ridings and all suburbs are screaming for more transit. It may not play too well in their traditional rural/small city vote but they already have those votes. They need the suburban votes as they are where elections are won and as the urban areas grow and rural areas stagnate or even decline all new seats will be in the cities so they must have policies that reflect that new reality or they will never get to QP.

Also no provincial government is going to say no to transit dollars now that the feds are pumping huge amounts into transit. It's easy and free money that buoys the economy and makes for great ribbon cutting ceremonies.

I am not so optimistic. It is easy to deflect questions of this nature during an election campaign using the guise of fiscal responsibility. Various transit projects could be 'delayed' or it could be argued that certain projects are white elephants. If you craft your message a certain way, it is surprising what you might get away with.

During the last election Tim Hudak tripped himself up when he admitted that he would not fund Phase 2 of the Confederation Line in Ottawa. He was not smart enough to deflect that issue. Other politicians may be more adept and evading issues and keeping on their talking points and effectively cancel or delay projects once they are elected to office.

[ainvan]

Bombardier admits it may miss 2017 TTC streetcar delivery target

The TTC’s much-delayed streetcar order could be headed for another setback.

After months of assurances from Bombardier that the company was on track to meet its latest delivery targets, the Quebec-based rail manufacturer warned the transit agency this week that it will be a “challenge” to supply 70 cars by the end of 2017 as scheduled.

TTC CEO Andy Byford revealed the latest snag with the $1-billion vehicle purchase at a meeting of the agency’s board on Wednesday, where commissioners also voted to seek out other potential suppliers for future streetcar orders.

“They (Bombardier) have said to me that the 70 by year-end is still possible, but it’s at risk and that it’s increasingly challenging,” said Byford, who discussed the order Tuesday with Bombardier’s president of transportation for the Americas, Benoit Brossoit.

As of this week the TTC has 40 of the new streetcars on its property. Under a timetable the two sides agreed to in 2012, the agency was supposed to have about 130 by now. Some of the vehicles that have arrived are experiencing reliability issues, mainly related to their doors.

The TTC ordered the accessible, low-floor streetcars from Bombardier in 2009 to replace its aging fleet, but Bombardier has failed to meet deadlines and repeatedly revised delivery schedules downwards. The company is currently on its fifth schedule since the order was signed.

The delays to the order prompted the TTC to sue the company in 2015 for liquidated damages. Under the terms of the contract the agency can seek up to $50 million for late delivery.

A Star investigation published in May documented a litany of production problems that have plagued the order, including poor workmanship, design failures, and persistent difficulties the company has had in managing its global supply chain.

Toronto Star

TTC considering new streetcar supplier after learning Bombardier may miss another deadline

The TTC board will test the market for a new streetcar supplier, a decision made on the same day its current partner Bombardier confirmed it may miss another deadline to deliver the much-delayed vehicles.

“I think the fact there was unanimous support reflects the frustration that we have with our current vendor,” he said. “(Board members) don’t like the delivery schedule and they want to at least look at other options if this is something that’s going to make Bombardier sit up and take notice and understand that they potentially are not the only game in town.”

TTC CEO Andy Byford supported Minnan-Wong’s motion and said none of the agency’s suppliers should get too comfortable.

“I don’t want any of them to think they have us over a barrel,” he said.

Toronto Sun

Bombardier's incompetence is beyond belief.

[caltrane74]

Toronto is too big to rely on a sole supplier/contractor for rail vehicle procurement. With all the problems Bombardier is having, all too evident.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by ainvan

Bombardier's incompetence is beyond belief.

The RTM published a call for tenders this year for 24 new rail cars for our commuter rail network. Bombardier lost to the only other bidder, CRRC (the largest rolling stock manufacturer in the world), and whined to the media about how local jobs weren't exploited and said that CRRC had no prior experience in North America. They then questioned the RTM's decision to give the contrat to someone other than them basically.

The nerves on these guys

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

The RTM published a call for tenders this year for 24 new rail cars for our commuter rail network. Bombardier lost to the only other bidder, CRRC (the largest rolling stock manufacturer in the world), and whined to the media about how local jobs weren't exploited and said that CRRC had no prior experience in North America. They then questioned the RTM's decision to give the contrat to someone other than them basically.

The nerves on these guys

That's pretty much standard stuff for large capital projects around the world, no? The big engineering and aerospace firms, for example, seldom miss an opportunity to slag each other or allege unfair tendering.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That's pretty much standard stuff for large capital projects around the world, no? The big engineering and aerospace firms, for example, seldom miss an opportunity to slag each other or allege unfair tendering.

A $69M contract for rail cars isn't what I call a large capital project.

Bombardier is pissed because they lost their monopoly of the AMT/RTM rolling stock after 20 years.

[ssiguy]

Let's face it, Bombardier's continual missing of TTC delivery dates is no surprise. This wouldn't happen in other cities worldwide but happens here because of Bombardier's indifference to Canadian contracts. It has always assumed {quite correctly} that all Ontario & Quebec contracts would automatically go to them whether the city went thru the public relations exercise of putting the contract out to tender. In short Bombardier always considered any late deliveries in Canada with utmost indifference.

Thankfully this has started to change as cities are getting tired of Bombardier's holier than thou attitude towards it's Canadian customers. With the TTC & Ottawa Transit now going with Alstom, Bombardier might get the idea that it's divine right to contracts is finally over.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Let's face it, Bombardier's continual missing of TTC delivery dates is no surprise. This wouldn't happen in other cities worldwide but happens here because of Bombardier's indifference to Canadian contracts. It has always assumed {quite correctly} that all Ontario & Quebec contracts would automatically go to them whether the city went thru the public relations exercise of putting the contract out to tender. In short Bombardier always considered any late deliveries in Canada with utmost indifference.

Thankfully this has started to change as cities are getting tired of Bombardier's holier than thou attitude towards it's Canadian customers. With the TTC & Ottawa Transit now going with Alstom, Bombardier might get the idea that it's divine right to contracts is finally over.

I'm hoping they don't get the REM contract as well.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Toronto is too big to rely on a sole supplier/contractor for rail vehicle procurement. With all the problems Bombardier is having, all too evident.

Don't excuse Bombardier's incompetent to deliver on schedule with the contract being too big for one company.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

I'm hoping they don't get the REM contract as well.

They should be barred from even being able to even bid for any Ontario contracts for at least a decade.

[casper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Let's face it, Bombardier's continual missing of TTC delivery dates is no surprise. This wouldn't happen in other cities worldwide but happens here because of Bombardier's indifference to Canadian contracts. It has always assumed {quite correctly} that all Ontario & Quebec contracts would automatically go to them whether the city went thru the public relations exercise of putting the contract out to tender. In short Bombardier always considered any late deliveries in Canada with utmost indifference.

Thankfully this has started to change as cities are getting tired of Bombardier's holier than thou attitude towards it's Canadian customers. With the TTC & Ottawa Transit now going with Alstom, Bombardier might get the idea that it's divine right to contracts is finally over.

That may be an Eastern Canada issue. Bombardier has solid competition in Western Canada. Skytrain in Vancouver has Bombardier on two lines, the third is using cars from South Korea. Calgary and Edmonton are Siemens predominately.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by casper

That may be an Eastern Canada issue. Bombardier has solid competition in Western Canada. Skytrain in Vancouver has Bombardier on two lines, the third is using cars from South Korea. Calgary and Edmonton are Siemens predominately.

Bombardier has assembly plants in Thunder Bay and La Pocatière. Which means everytime there's a contract up for grabs, not only is Bombardier there but there's also the "local jobs" dilemma that comes with not choosing them.

In Montreal, they're everywhere. They built the new Metro (partnership with Alstom), all of our commuter rail cars and the new dual-mode locomotives, plus the MR-90 EMU's on Deux-Montagnes back in 1995. In addition, Bombardier is now operating all 6 of Montreal's commuter rail lines since July 1st.

Now there's 1 chance out of 3 we get them for the REM rolling stock (other bidders are Hyundai Rotem and Alstom).

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

They should be barred from even being able to even bid for any Ontario contracts for at least a decade.

The Azur trains are on time. There were initial delays, but the whole contract is now on time for all delivery in 2018.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

I'm hoping they don't get the REM contract as well.

I'm hoping they do, as the Azur is a fantastic example of Bombardier's design ability, and the Rockets are quite good too. I also fear that in lieu of BBD, the CDPQ might choose Alstom, which on its own produces absolute garbage (I realise that the azur is a bbd-alstom partnership) . We have their horrible light rail cars in Sydney, which are up for replacement after a few short years of shaky, shoddy service. I do think that losing the commuter rail monopoly will teach BBD a much-needed lesson to not take Canadian contracts for granted, however. I also quite like Calgary's new Siemens rolling stock. Anything but Alstom.

[TownGuy]

They seem to do a good job building GOs bi-level cars.

[WhipperSnapper]

They're just coaches. Pretty freakin' basic compared to a lrt.

IIRC, The TTC bidding process was quite telling. It was one of the largest contracts available in North America and only two companies bothered to bid on it. The losing one was a pretty half assed bid as well.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

They're just coaches. Pretty freakin' basic compared to a lrt.

IIRC, The TTC bidding process was quite telling. It was one of the largest contracts available in North America and only two companies bothered to bid on it. The losing one was a pretty half assed bid as well.

It's pretty standard that the bigger the project, the less bidders there usually are.

The Confederation Line extensions have only three bidders. The REM has only two for engineering and construction. The Crosstown had two as well I believe.

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I'm hoping they do, as the Azur is a fantastic example of Bombardier's design ability, and the Rockets are quite good too. I also fear that in lieu of BBD, the CDPQ might choose Alstom, which on its own produces absolute garbage (I realise that the azur is a bbd-alstom partnership) . We have their horrible light rail cars in Sydney, which are up for replacement after a few short years of shaky, shoddy service. I do think that losing the commuter rail monopoly will teach BBD a much-needed lesson to not take Canadian contracts for granted, however. I also quite like Calgary's new Siemens rolling stock. Anything but Alstom.

I don't want the BBD experience with the REM to be similar to Toronto's. Personally, I would have liked to see other builders like AnsaldoBreda and China Railway Intl being chosen but their bids were rejected.