Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For quite some time now, the guiding principle in Canada for most of these issues has often been "maximum generosity and openness". Another example is the persistent talk in Ontario about letting non-citizen permanent residents vote in municipal elections.

Yeah, I could see that changing fairly quickly as the costs of supporting that sort of approach can mount quickly. I think there is a justifiable sense of unfairness that gets triggered when one is seen to be only taking but not contributing... the evacuation of Canadians "in name only" from Lebanon in 2006 was a real flashpoint for that sentiment.

That's a pretty small and narrow subset of the population, though. Overall I think there is still a great deal of generosity to fellow Canadians, even newcomers, as evidenced by the Syrian refugee influx of the past year or two.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Surprisingly, many Canadians seem quite relaxed and zen about this possibility.

Of course this is just talk. And it comes from the comfy confines where the speaker knows it's not really going to happen.

Surprisingly many?

Acajack, this is an extreme position. I think the number of native English-speaking Canadians who would voluntarily give up their use of English for Mandarin because there seems to be an influx of Mandarin speakers to certain parts of the country is a tiny fraction of the population. I can't think of a case in recorded history where the citizens of a state gave up their lingua franca voluntarily, and not through force.

Language = culture. The disappearance of a language is cultural genocide, and voluntarily giving up your language is cultural suicide.

There may be more people who would entertain this "idea" in Canada than in, say, Japan, but my guess is that this would be 0.05% of Canadians versus 0.001% of Japanese.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Surprisingly many?

Acajack, this is an extreme position. I think the number of native English-speaking Canadians who would voluntarily give up their use of English for Mandarin because there seems to be an influx of Mandarin speakers to certain parts of the country is a tiny fraction of the population. I can't think of a case in recorded history where the citizens of a state gave up their lingua franca voluntarily, and not through force.

Language = culture. The disappearance of a language is cultural genocide, and voluntarily giving up your language is cultural suicide.

There may be more people who would entertain this "idea" in Canada than in, say, Japan, but my guess is that this would be 0.05% of Canadians versus 0.001% of Japanese.

I should have phrased it differently.

They "talk about it in a relaxed and zen" way, as if they wouldn't mind.

It's totally disingeneous, and usually thrown out as a "dead cat on the table" in discussions about French, bilingualism, Quebec language policy, etc.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Fair point. Although it should be noted that we don't really have underlying centuries-old ethnic feuds that are being kept in check by some strongman dictator like some Soviet-bloc country circa 1962. I mean, there are petty gripes and what not, but it's not like if the RCMP suddenly left Manitoba that the Africans and the Cree would suddenly be at each other's throats.

This is all hypothetical but personally I am less worried about cultural feuds or incompatibilities than I am about environmental problems and declining living standards.

This is a skyscraper forum, sort of, and there is a noticeable pro-growth bias here, but have you noticed how there's a small set of really desirable neighbourhoods that have shot up in price over time? Or how many North Americans have been pushed out to more and more marginal places like Phoenix as the coastal cities have become expensive? We have largely failed to construct large-scale modern alternatives that are both desirable and environmentally friendly, so as the population has grown people in North America have either crowded together or moved to less desirable areas, all the while consuming enormous quantities of resources and emitting tons of greenhouse gases.

I am not sure immigration helps this side of the equation much; many economists argue that it drives economic growth but they rarely talk about living standards (housing bubbles do not make the population as a whole materially better off) and the economic growth statistics normally don't account for population growth. People as a whole are not really better off if the economy grows by 10% and the population grows by 10%; Canada often spins its wheels in this way. Well, Canada as a whole spins its wheels. Labour prices fall, asset prices go up, and the total size of the government goes up. If you are wealthy or in a position of power the 10%/10% situation is pretty good. If you are poor it is bad (but you are told not worry about your personal interests because this is a moral issue).

From a humanitarian angle it seems nice to accept some refugees but the UN estimate is that the global population is going to go up by 4 billion by 2100. It is impossible for migration to currently wealthy countries to have a significant demographic impact on developing nations while having no side-effects at home. To make a significant impact, living standards in these other countries have to go up. They're probably not going to go up much if we siphon off their wealthiest and most educated citizens.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I should have phrased it differently.

They "talk about it in a relaxed and zen" way, as if they wouldn't mind.

It's totally disingeneous, and usually thrown out as a "dead cat on the table" in discussions about French, bilingualism, Quebec language policy, etc.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, it is totally disingenuous and indefensible.

It is to cultural tolerance what voluntary human extinction is to the sustainability movement. The good old "save yourself by destroying yourself" circular argument.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, it is totally disingenuous and indefensible.

Probably for some but I wonder if it isn't also a blind spot that exists because others have never felt what it is like to have to get by in a culture they are not used to.

If you are an English speaker from North America you can easily live your whole life without ever needing to worry about language and culture. You can be catered to in your native language in many other countries. On the other hand, if you are, say, a unilingual Francophone in North America, it is hard to avoid the fish-out-of-water experience at some point, or at least run up against some conspicuous cultural boundaries.

One related phenomenon is English speakers who think they are more or less fluent in another language when in reality they have next to no useful skills in anything but English. Maybe "I would just learn Mandarin" seems plausible to somebody who thinks they are bilingual because they got an A in a Spanish course. Canada is full of temporarily embarrassed expert French speakers.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

One related phenomenon is English speakers who think they are more or less fluent in another language when in reality they have next to no useful skills in anything but English. Maybe "I would just learn Mandarin" seems plausible to somebody who thinks they are bilingual because they got an A in a Spanish course that they never had to put to the test by trying to live their daily lives in Spanish.

And even if you're fluent enough to live your daily life in that foreign language, you're still going to have to compete for everything (jobs, opportunities, etc.) with perfectly fluent locals.

I have a business partner (who's become a good friend now) who is Anglophone, but fluent in French. He's often had to use me as his "interface" to contact and interact with other Québécois we were hoping to do business with, just to make sure we put all chances on our side. Not only to ensure we "rub them the right way", but also to be at the very top of our game during the negociations.

Imagine that you're decently good at Mandarin; aren't you still going to be at a certain disadvantage when it's time to go and seduce/convince a potential Chinese Vancouverite client to do a certain deal with you, if your rivals for that are Chinese who have an absolutely perfect mastery of the subtleties of their common language?

[Acajack]

Oh well. Zai djian!

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/richmond-man-who-fought-mandarin-only-meetings-moves-away

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh well. Zai djian!

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/richmond-man-who-fought-mandarin-only-meetings-moves-away

Can you blame him? And its a documented pattern of White Flight from many areas of Metro Vancouver to the Interior and Vancouver Island.

I though immigration standards were supposed to ensure a working level of English, yet that strata's residents couldn't conduct a meeting in English?!

[Spocket]

If every single person in the room speaks Mandarin as their mother tongue, okay, fine, conduct the meetings in Mandarin. If so much as one person speaks English, French, or any other language then the people conducting the meeting have a duty to do it all in English in English or French. Why? Because this is Canada and those are the languages you're REQUIRED to know if you want to immigrate here.

That also means that if so much as one person in that meeting speaks Hindi or Punjabi as a first language then the meeting has to be conducted in either English or French. The reason should be obvious but it's also why we have official languages: Lingua Francas allow for a common medium of communication.

Living in China, I would be told to fuck right off if I demanded anybody accommodate my language preferences. They mostly wouldn't even understand what I was demanding in the first place but even if they did, I can't think of one good reason that they should have to placate me.

For the people calling this man a racist in the comments, well, they should try going to another country such as, oh, say, Afghanistan and demanding services in any language but Dari or Pashto. When you move to a new country, you adjust to it, not the other way around.

I also see that there was discussion of birthright citizenship. I don't think it's a bad idea. As long as there is some stipulation that says that a child must actually live in Canada to access benefits, I don't see any problem with it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Can you blame him? And its a documented pattern of White Flight from many areas of Metro Vancouver to the Interior and Vancouver Island.

I though immigration standards were supposed to ensure a working level of English, yet that strata's residents couldn't conduct a meeting in English?!

Knowledge of English (or French) is not a prerequisite for getting accepted to immigrate to Canada. You just get more points on your score if you know one or both. Canada accepts lots of immigrants who speak a foreign language only.

You need to know English or French to be naturalized as a citizen though.

[SpongeG]

Not Always, my friend and his mom came here from pakistan, sponsored by his sister's family and he had to do the citizenship test and all that and the ceremony in english, his mom didn't have to do anything, she can't speak any english, she isn't that old but all language requirements were waived for her. She took no tests or anything and got her citizenship. They say its due to her age but she was only in her 50's maybe early 60's at the time.

But they can do banking, shopping, go to movies, restaurants etc and never have to use english at all.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Not Always, my friend and his mom came here from pakistan, sponsored by his sister's family and he had to do the citizenship test and all that and the ceremony in english, his mom didn't have to do anything, she can't speak any english, she isn't that old but all language requirements were waived for her. She took no tests or anything and got her citizenship. They say its due to her age but she was only in her 50's maybe early 60's at the time.

But they can do banking, shopping, go to movies, restaurants etc and never have to use english at all.

Waived for applicants aged 55 or more.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Not Always, my friend and his mom came here from pakistan, sponsored by his sister's family and he had to do the citizenship test and all that and the ceremony in english, his mom didn't have to do anything, she can't speak any english, she isn't that old but all language requirements were waived for her. She took no tests or anything and got her citizenship. They say its due to her age but she was only in her 50's maybe early 60's at the time.

But they can do banking, shopping, go to movies, restaurants etc and never have to use english at all.

Yeah. Not saying this is what you're claiming, but when people say this it's often interpreted that the lady goes to Tim Hortons and Maggie Carmichael talks to her in Urdu, that at Canadian Tire Dave Chang does the same when changing her car's tires, etc., that she works at the local CIBC branch and does so without using English...

The truth is that if there is enough critical mass of your ethnic group and you live in certain areas where they are concentrated, you can organize your life so that you go to business that are run by people of your ethnic group (cafés, restaurants, groceries, etc.), and in other cases where they aren't and you need personal interaction you organize your schedule to be served by Budur at Tammy's Hair Salon or Benazir at the local bank branch.

For other cases like bus drivers or the hydro guy you either rely on family members who speak English, or simply muddle through the interactions with as little conversation as possible. As I would do in Moscow or Ulaan Bataar.

It takes organization and it is a limiting way to live, but it's possible.

There are a few older people in the area where I live who live their lives like this in Arabic only and Portuguese only.

[niwell]

^Lots of older folks in Toronto's west end that seem to manage in Portuguese only as well. I've been in situations at bakeries or churrasqueiras where the owner's kids have to translate. Most banks (including branches of Portugual based credit unions) do offer service in Portuguese as well as English in the area. It's interesting as it seems to be a group that retained the language more than others in a number of places worldwide.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

^Lots of older folks in Toronto's west end that seem to manage in Portuguese only as well. I've been in situations at bakeries or churrasqueiras where the owner's kids have to translate. Most banks (including branches of Portugual based credit unions) do offer service in Portuguese as well as English in the area. It's interesting as it seems to be a group that retained the language more than others in a number of places worldwide.

I've mentioned many times on here that I grew up in a francophone family that often lived in very anglophone cities and towns. My mom (who spoke English slightly less well) actually had this kind of francophone/francophile network for a lot of stuff: hairstylist, baker, café, social circle, etc. She didn't live her life 100% in French. Not even close. But a decent percentage of it was still in French when you consider some places were 99% anglo and only had 50 francophone households in the entire region.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah. Not saying this is what you're claiming, but when people say this it's often interpreted that the lady goes to Tim Hortons and Maggie Carmichael talks to her in Urdu, that at Canadian Tire Dave Chang does the same when changing her car's tires, etc., that she works at the local CIBC branch and does so without using English...

The truth is that if there is enough critical mass of your ethnic group and you live in certain areas where they are concentrated, you can organize your life so that you go to business that are run by people of your ethnic group (cafés, restaurants, groceries, etc.), and in other cases where they aren't and you need personal interaction you organize your schedule to be served by Budur at Tammy's Hair Salon or Benazir at the local bank branch.

For other cases like bus drivers or the hydro guy you either rely on family members who speak English, or simply muddle through the interactions with as little conversation as possible. As I would do in Moscow or Ulaan Bataar.

It takes organization and it is a limiting way to live, but it's possible.

There are a few older people in the area where I live who live their lives like this in Arabic only and Portuguese only.

I'm not sure Canada is any different from any other place with large ex-pat/other language communities in this regard.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've mentioned many times on here that I grew up in a francophone family that often lived in very anglophone cities and towns. My mom (who spoke English slightly less well) actually had this kind of francophone/francophile network for a lot of stuff: hairstylist, baker, café, social circle, etc. She didn't live her life 100% in French. Not even close. But a decent percentage of it was still in French when you consider some places were 99% anglo and only had 50 francophone households in the entire region.

I can vouch for this. All Acajack does is talk about this stuff. He can turn any thread into a discussion about language.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

I can vouch for this. All Acajack does is talk about this stuff. He can turn any thread into a discussion about language.

You should start working on a new username. Like now.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You should start working on a new username. Like now.

I'm thinking "Acajacques". What do you think?