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  #1301  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 8:13 PM
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New BC Political Discussion - POST BC Election 2017

New BC Political Discussion - POST BC Election 2017

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=228967

I thought I would take the initiative to start a new thread for our future political discussions in regards to BC politics.

I will not shut down anyone who thinks differently from myself, so those who feel they would get shut down for posting elsewhere are more than welcome to post your views on our current situation with the NDP and Green political parties in power.
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  #1302  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by waves View Post
That is pure speculation. Until actually dissolution and a date has been struck for a new election this forum should most definitely not take on a new date.
You need to be more objective. S. 43 of the BC Constitution Act clearly states that a majority of members, other than the Speaker, must vote at 3rd reading of bills, or budget or Throne Speech.

The Clerk of the House basically told the House the exact same thing at the commencement of the current Parliament.

We also know that interim supply bills run out September 30. Apparently the legislature will sit again in early September. First order of business is both a Throne Speech and Budget.

Likely vote: 43 v. 43. Speaker does not have casting vote under S. 43 in these circumstances.

Throne Speech/Budget not passed ergo Horgan will have no alternative but to visit LG and ask for dissolution. Sometime in September. 28 days later new election date sometime in October.

Prove me analytically wrong.
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  #1303  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Likely vote: 43 v. 43. Speaker does not have casting vote under S. 43 in these circumstances.

Throne Speech/Budget not passed ergo Horgan will have no alternative but to visit LG and ask for dissolution. Sometime in September. 28 days later new election date sometime in October.

Prove me analytically wrong.
You are analytically wrong because of Section 44 that comes immediatley after Section 43.

For your reference:
http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96066_01
Quote:
Originally Posted by CONSTITUTION ACT
Decisions of Legislative Assembly by majority vote
43 All questions must be determined by a majority of votes of the members present, other than the Speaker.

Tied vote
44 If a vote in the Legislative Assembly is tied, the Speaker has a casting vote.
According to the Legislation this means that in all votes other than tied votes, the speaker does not vote. In the event of a tie, such as you describe above, the speaker does vote.
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  #1304  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 10:02 PM
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Apparent that you do not understand how to read statute law.

Firstly, does not matter where a provision is situated in statute. Where 2 provisions appear to conflict both provisions must be "read together" for meaning and effect.

Secondly, the BC Constitution Act enshrined Speaker convention - that is Speaker has a casting vote in 1st and 2nd reading... but not 3rd and final reading of a bill prior to royal assent, a Throne Speach, a Budget, etc. Those are "Decisions of the House" made by members only - Speaker does not have casting vote under those circumstances as S. 43 clearly implies.

Finally, the Clerk of The BC Legislature, on the first day of the current Parliament essentially told the House the same thing:

Quote:
Clerk of the House: Good morning, Members.

Much has been said about the speakership in the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia since May 9. A lot of what is being talked about is wrong. A lot of what has been examined by way of confidence motions, casting vote and the way this place functions is and has been wrong.
...
Section 43 of the act states that “all questions must be determined by a majority of votes of the members present other than the Speaker,” which further separates the speakership from the general membership of the House.
Everything is crystal clear.
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  #1305  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
[It] does not matter where a provision is situated in statute. Where 2 provisions appear to conflict both provisions must be "read together" for meaning and effect.
Let's read them together then: "All questions must be determined by a majority of votes of the members present, other than the Speaker. If a vote in the Legislative Assembly is tied, the Speaker has a casting vote."

Pretty crystal clear to me here that under a tie, the speaker may vote.


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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
[T]he BC Constitution Act enshrined Speaker convention...
You should just stop there, because what ever supposed convention you are referring to is not written down anywhere as law. The LG choice to reject the BC Liberals request for dissolution is a clear signal that there are avenues to governance that do not go against the written constitution, irrespective of "conventions" that may be broken.

So is it crystal clear that there will be an election in October? No.
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  #1306  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Apparent that you do not understand how to read statute law.
Second to my message below, your continual snide remarks throughout this thread are highly inappropriate. I am not the only one to notice this. You could have for example said, Statute Law is read like ___ and not like ___ rather than beginning with an Ad hominem attack.

I should re-iterate I respect the information and perspective you bring to this thread, but please - lets make these discussions civil.
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  #1307  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waves View Post
Let's read them together then: "All questions must be determined by a majority of votes of the members present, other than the Speaker. If a vote in the Legislative Assembly is tied, the Speaker has a casting vote."

Pretty crystal clear to me here that under a tie, the speaker may vote.
Incorrect. "Decisions of the House" (S. 43) means what comes out of the House relating to final bills at 3rd reading, Throne Speech, budgets.

Other than that, the Speaker has a casting vote in 1st and 2nd reading by convention. In Canada's fed Parliament, a casting vote has been made by Speaker 11 times but only in 1st and 2nd reading - never final 3rd reading. By convention, a Speaker must vote against 3rd reading in order to keep "status quo". And that was enshrined into BC's statute.

IOW, Speaker has casting vote in 1st/2nd reading but not 3rd reading when S. 43/S. 44 "read together". The Clerk of the House made that clear as well.

BTW, here's a good read on Speaker convention on casting votes:

https://thoughtundermined.com/2017/06/14/the-casting-vote-and-confidence-matters/


Quote:
The LG choice to reject the BC Liberals request for dissolution is a clear signal that there are avenues to governance that do not go against the written constitution, irrespective of "conventions" that may be broken.
Incorrect. LG made her decision based upon her discussions with vice-regals across the Commonwealth - all based upon precedents/constitutional convention. BC's Constitution Act does not enshrine into law the LGs conduct in such matters:

Quote:
Lieutenant-Governor’s decision carried the weight of constitutional convention

ANDREA WOO
VANCOUVER — The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Jun. 30, 2017 10:12PM EDT

By the time B.C. Premier Christy Clark arrived at the official residence of the province’s Lieutenant-Governor having just lost a confidence vote, Judith Guichon had largely made up her mind about what to do next. The weight of constitutional conventions was so great that she felt she had little choice but to call on the New Democrats to take power.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri...nstitutional-convention/article35529642/
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  #1308  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 11:06 PM
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Side note: If I reply, I will post it to the new thread here on out.

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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
...Clerk of the House made that clear as well....
If you are refering to his speech here, he didn't even mention section 44. This is besides the point that Craig should not have even made his speech in the first place. Consider Martyn Brown, Elizabeth Cull, and Norman Spector with Gregor Craigie on CBC Radio @ 13:30.

Furthermore, the panel iterated my argument that the law is not being broken by a speaker voting on confidence motions. The constitution, as it is written and only as it is written, does not prevent the speaker from voting in confidence motions and therefore, however likely, does not guarantee dissolution come September.

Written by a pseudonym, this article lacks credibility. However, his argument is still based on unwritten "principles" or conventions, as is yours. Again, there is no explicit writings within the constitution that prevent a confidence motion from passing with the vote of the speaker.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Incorrect. LG made her decision based upon her discussions with vice-regals across the Commonwealth - all based upon precedents/constitutional convention. BC's Constitution Act does not enshrine into law the LGs conduct in such matters
I am not arguing the merits of which the LG made her decision. I am arguing that she would have permitted dissolution if there was no legal avenue for governance by the NDP.
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  #1309  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2017, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by waves View Post

If you are refering to his speech here, he didn't even mention section 44. This is besides the point that Craig should not have even made his speech in the first place. Consider Martyn Brown, Elizabeth Cull, and Norman Spector with Gregor Craigie on CBC Radio @ 13:30.
Yep. I have already provided links, mentioned in this thread, to the foregoing. S. 44 was not relevant to matters at 3rd reading, matters of confidence, etc. that's why the Clerk of the House obviously did not bring the matter up. Moreover, the Ministry of the Attorney-General is providing written guidance to the Clerk of the House in order that they adhere to the BC Constitution Act as time progresses (confirmed by Clerk himself).

Quote:
Furthermore, the panel iterated my argument that the law is not being broken by a speaker voting on confidence motions. The constitution, as it is written and only as it is written, does not prevent the speaker from voting in confidence motions and therefore, however likely, does not guarantee dissolution come September.
Frankly, a political panel would not understand the BC Constitution Act and implications thereto IMHO (if they even brought it up). Budgets, Throne Speeches, etc. are also "Final Decisions of House" (s. 43) The Clerk of the House will understand S. 43 (as he's the "CEO") and his responsibilities include ensuring the House adheres to the BC Constitution Act inclusive of the Speaker.

Again, watch out for September. We will see dissolution. I have no doubt.
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  #1310  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 1:59 AM
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anyway, as "stringray" knows, the NDP government will pass bills with the speaker casting the final vote, and then some gang who can satisfy the standing requirements (ie. the BC liberals) will force the issue into the BC courts to sort it out, and that's how it'll play. "stingray" knows that he doesn't know how it'll turn out, just as he was totally incorrect about everything he's confidently stated to this point. as usual, he's advocating by presenting his partisan position as obviously correct. you shouldn't engage with him as though he were an expert or neutral, you should engage with him as though he were laser-focused on trying to convince whoever is reading that his position is correct. like petting a crocodile.
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  #1311  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 2:46 AM
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Originally Posted by a very long weekend View Post
anyway, as "stringray" knows, the NDP government will pass bills with the speaker casting the final vote, and then some gang who can satisfy the standing requirements (ie. the BC liberals) will force the issue into the BC courts to sort it out, and that's how it'll play. "stingray" knows that he doesn't know how it'll turn out, just as he was totally incorrect about everything he's confidently stated to this point. as usual, he's advocating by presenting his partisan position as obviously correct. you shouldn't engage with him as though he were an expert or neutral, you should engage with him as though he were laser-focused on trying to convince whoever is reading that his position is correct. like petting a crocodile.
Bwahahaha. One of the dumbest comments in this thread to date.

"A very long weekend" was formerly known as "flight from kamakura". A diehard NDPer online for over a decade. So ideologically left-wing that he supported the far-left Syriza party during the last Greece election.

Akin to supporting the far-right FN in France on the other end of the political spectrum.

Why do all these fringe ideologicals troll this thread after the GreeNDP win? Quite obvious.

You also obviously have no understanding of statute law either. Firstly, any decision by the Speaker of the House is final. Cannot be appealed. Anywhere.

Secondly, the new Speaker of the House will be appropriately advised by both the Ministry of Attorney General as well as the Clerk of the House about not having a casting vote on a final decision of the BC Legislature pursuant to S. 43 of the BC Constitution Act.

If the Speaker decides to ignore same... essentially "breaking the law" the media will be all over same and we will have a political crisis on our hands forcing the Speaker to resign. Quite simple.

BTW, this thread has seen some trolls polluting same now including yourself. Another new thread has been opened up. Kindly go over there. It also includes other trolls that have been polluting this thread. Basically an NDP "Glee Club". I have absolutely no interest in that whatsoever.

Again, go over there. Leave this thread alone for non-ideological, quasi-objective political types.
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  #1312  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 3:11 AM
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  #1313  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 3:14 AM
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Bwahahahaha. Again. Retro Orange. Go post your dumb stuff in your new thread. Leave this one alone. And don't come back.
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  #1314  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 3:36 AM
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okay, mr. expert. first off, there's no "statute" law, there's just law. i could run through the hierarchy of authorities in BC, but that would be tiresome. as you know (if you ever did end up going to law school), if the NDP elect the speaker and the speaker votes with the government, then the liberals (or whoever else the court decides has standing) can challenge that interpretation of the "statute" (ie. constitution act or whatever you think is important) and then that'll be decided by the courts. you can't predict that result, only a fool would predict that result.

what you're trying to convince people isn't very clear beyond the idea that according to the few flimsy sources you've thrown up, convention says the greens and the ndp 'coalition' is illegitimate, so there must be a new election. and the certainty you're projecting on that is weird.

and for whatever it's worth, you're right that i definitely support the ndp/greens. but i've also lived in california for years now (and i'm an american as well as having canadian citizenship), and before that i was at mcgill in montreal. i like the ndp/greens because i think it's nuts how the liberals have allowed the housing prices to shoot up to these destabilizing levels, i've good reason to think the ndp will plough money into transit infrastructure, and i just generally look forward to seeing a laboratory of good governance up there (i'm not at all convinced that the ndp government that was elected 21 years ago is relevant to today). it's especially heartening that the ndp/greens took power with almost no rural support, meaning that they can run the province for the urban areas.
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  #1315  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by a very long weekend View Post
okay, mr. expert. first off, there's no "statute" law, there's just law. i could run through the hierarchy of authorities in BC, but that would be tiresome. as you know (if you ever did end up going to law school), if the NDP elect the speaker and the speaker votes with the government, then the liberals (or whoever else the court decides has standing) can challenge that interpretation of the "statute" (ie. constitution act or whatever you think is important) and then that'll be decided by the courts. you can't predict that result, only a fool would predict that result.
BC Constitution Act is statute. No heirarchy of authorities thereto. Law can be something completely different in terms of legal precedent.

BC Constitution Act will "never" be decided by the Courts. Speaker's decision is final. Period. No appeals thereto. Do you even know what you are talking about??!

Sigh. What "law school" did you receive your "degree" from?

In any event. Go to the other thread. Your posts are becoming more nonsensical in succession. Political bafflegab.
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  #1316  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 6:32 AM
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lol, okay, professor.

sooo, for non-lawyers. broadly, the way that law works is that judges rule based on preceding interpretations of statute and their rulings are what mostly passes as law. sometimes court-created law is so well established that it's codified and organized into law (this is where the canadian provincial constitutions come from), and sometimes the legislature overrules the court-decided law with something more specific and closer to legislative intent (think controversy, like when a court is too lenient on a criminal and the province institutes a mandatory penalty). this back and forth is called the common law system.

so, cutting to the chase, here's how this plays out in this case:

1. the legislature acts and claims its actions are legal according to the rules set out in the 1996 law;
2. some party, if it can establish standing, is allowed to file suit to challenge the legality of the NDP manoeuvre;
3. the court decides on the legality of the law.

the court decides the merits of the complaint based on the letter of the law, the legislative intent documented at the time, outside interpretations and, all importantly, prior cases that have considered the problem at issue. so, while "stingray" is a crackpot, he's right to bring in these collateral issues (constitutional scholar x, precedent y). but where he's wrong is to suggest (a) that he knows anything about what might happen, or, (b) that he even grasps the legal stuff. the evidence is too thin, it's really uncharted territory, and a judge ordering an election seems very radical.

honestly, i really only started following this one thread because i'm really hopeful that the progressives will bring massive rapid transit investment and big changes to zoning, which could filter down here to california. i'm not invested at all in vancouver, i haven't lived there in many years, and i'll stay out of this conversation from now on.

edits for concision and info.
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Last edited by a very long weekend; Jul 3, 2017 at 6:58 AM.
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  #1317  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 6:41 AM
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lol, okay, professor.

sooo, for non-lawyers. broadly, the way that law works that judges rule based on preceding interpretations of statute. sometimes law evolves so far afield of precedents that it's codified and organized into law, sometimes the legislature overrules the the court-decided law with something more specific and closer to legislative intent. this is called the common law system.

so, cutting to the chase, here's how this plays out in this case:

1. the legislature acts and claims its actions are legal according to the rules set out in the 1996 law;
2. some party, if it can establish standing, is allowed to file suit to challenge the legality of the manoeuvre;
3. the court decides on the legality based on the law.

the way the court decides is based on the letter of the law, the legislative intent documented at the time, outside interpretations and, all importantly, prior cases that have considered the problem at issue. so, while "stingray" is a crackpot, he's right to bring in these collateral issues. but where he's wrong is to suggest (a) that he knows anything about what might happen, or, (b) that he even grasps the legal stuff.

sorry, emcee, you asked for it.
Nice try. You are obviously both "green" and legally "wet between the ears". The Court will "not" decide the BC Constitution Act. Period.

Look. A new thread has been "tailor-made" for you ideological types. Leave this thread alone. Forthwith, continue posting here:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7852917
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  #1318  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 7:07 AM
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^ think about what you're saying. a government can just act without any judicial oversight just because they passed a law in 1996 that said they could?

first off, that sort of law wouldn't pass muster after the canadian constitution was passed - all government decisions are subject to some form of judicial review if some it passes the standard for judicial review (which varies depending on action).

second, why would you think that would apply to this particular act? you're thinking that it's a rules exemption of some sort? ie. that whatever actions taken by the speaker of the leg fall under powers granted under the 1996 law, so can't be reviewed. but the very thing that's sure to take place - the speaker voting in a way that's not explicitly allowed by the 1996 law is what will happen, the very reason the courts would get involved.

third, why wouldn't you want the courts to be involved? i'm not sure what other recourse you think you have. the ndp elects the speaker, the speaker says "no prob, i can vote to support the government" and then you're here saying that there's nothing that the opposition could bring to the courts? it's madness, lol. like, you actually want the courts on your side. you're a fanatical bc liberal, why wouldn't you want the courts on your side?

and finally, you're right, i'm not a canadian constitutional attorney, i do property stuff and i do it in california. but it's an easy enough thing just to read the stuff, scroll around on westlaw and see what's what.
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  #1319  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2017, 7:14 AM
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^ think about what you're saying. a government can just act without any judicial oversight just because they passed a law in 1996 that said they could
Incorrect again. The BC Constitution Act was amended in 1996. Previously amended in 1979. Don't know actually how long ago it was actually implemented.

BC Constitution Act is a completely different matter re: other statutes. Already has oversight by Ministry of Attorney General and the provisions therein are quite clear (to them and me).

Can't state that enough. Judicial review not applicable. Again, any casting vote by a Speaker (even if contravenes S. 43) cannot be appealed. A very unique statute to say the least.

Last edited by Stingray2004; Jul 3, 2017 at 8:27 AM.
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  #1320  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 4:03 AM
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In further reference to s. 43 of the BC Constitution Act discussed above, again, by statute the Speaker does not have a casting vote in division (divided/tied legislative vote) on 3rd reading of a bill prior to royal assent or budget or Throne Speech, etc. - which are all "final decisions of the legislature" irrespective whether they are confidence votes or not. Corroborated by the Clerk of the BC Legislature who is the "CEO" thereto. S. 43 enshrines Speaker convention at the 3rd reading, etc. stage in that the Speaker, in order to keep the "status quo", must vote against same.

Have also been well aware, from awhile back, that during the 2003 New Brunswick election the incumbent Bernard Lord PC gov't won by a narrow 1-seat majority (different circumstances from BC):

PC: 28
Lib: 26
NDP: 1

IOW, the incumbent PC gov't had a 1-seat majority. For whatever reason, the incumbent PCs drew from their own ranks to elect a Speaker (not opposition ranks), which would result in 27 - 27 tie votes akin to what we will be witnessing under the new GreeNDP gov't. The NB Speaker thereto not only bent Speaker convention but also broke Speaker convention at the 3rd reading of bills, budgets, Throne Speeches, etc. (to the chagrin of other Speakers in the Commonwealth):

Quote:
No one was in the hot seat more than former PC MLA Bev Harrison, a former Speaker who again accepted the role in 2003. Like British Columbia, the legislature had to choose someone for the post, a referee job that requires a level of cross-partisan respect to keep order in the House. Traditionally, the Speaker is to function as a non-partisan, detached arbiter of the rules governing the legislature. But that position is challenged with a legislature evenly divided.

Mr. Harrison said in an interview with The Globe and Mail this week that he knew he was heading into a dicey situation, one that would leave him vulnerable to accusations his position would ultimately erode tradition. But he said he had a duty to ensure the stability of the government ruled by his party “I did it. I had to. At that point, it was a question of should I precipitate an election when it might not have been in the interest of the province to do it?” he said.

But Mr. Harrison was forced into a position where he routinely voted in favour of government bills. That contradicts the convention that Speakers have a duty to further debate. Mr. Harrison’s reticence to vote against government bills meant he was behaving as a partisan, contrary to the nature of the job, said Shawn Graham, who was Liberal leader at the time. “A number of rulings did not preserve the status quo in parliamentary tradition and caused great consternation with his peers, I presume, across the Commonwealth,” Mr. Graham said.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri...c-on-speaker-traditions/article35507822/

Again, in NB, the Speaker not only bent but also broke Speaker convention in terms of using his casting vote to break ties in terms of 3rd reading of bills, budgets, etc. Had NB had a similar statute as BC's in terms of s. 43 of the BC Constitution Act, the Speaker would be "breaking the law". IOW, would be barred from utilizing his casting vote.

Now let's come back to BC again. Had the BC Libs won the Courtenay-Comox riding, after final recount, the final seat count in the legislature would have been 44 Libs v. 43 (NDP + Green). The BC Libs would have selected a Speaker from within their own ranks, which would have resulted in similar 43 - 43 tie votes. Again, the Speaker would not have a casting vote in 3rd reading of bills, budgets, Throne Speech, etc., which would ultimately result in dissolution. Ergo, one of the main reasons the BC Libs were also negotiating with the Greens after the election. With the Greens just abstaining (not voting either in favour or against) on a supply and confidence accord, the BC Libs would at least be able to pass a Throne Speech as well as a budget. Not so in case of the current GreeNDP arrangement. OTOH, the BC Libs would not be able to pass legislation after 3rd reading on any other bill without Green party support.

Again, the GreeNDP gov't will sit in the legislature after Labour Day weekend in order to pass a Throne Speech and budget - first order of business. They won't be able to pass same under a tied vote as the Speaker will not have a casting vote under s. 43 of the BC Constitution Act. Then Horgan's only alternative will be to go to the LG to request dissolution. Anyone disagree? Hell, I will bet $25 (keeping it simple and not much) to your favourite charity against mine (with receipt posted herein and name blacked out). Any takers?
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