PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[br323206]

Originally Posted by McBane

PennDot created all this open space which is great but who's going to use it is my question? I was in Portland earlier this year and would love to see some of these underutilized plazas and parks filled with food carts. Empty park space is an invitation for the homeless to gather and take over. As it is, the Parkway has too much. We don't have the density to populate every open space in that area.

We have plenty of "empty park space" that hasn't been taken over by homeless people. Not every park space has to have 24/7 programming to be successful. With that being said, I'm sure there will be programming for this particular space. It would work well for Parks on Tap.

[1487]

Originally Posted by br323206

We have plenty of "empty park space" that hasn't been taken over by homeless people. Not every park space has to have 24/7 programming to be successful. With that being said, I'm sure there will be programming for this particular space. It would work well for Parks on Tap.

Amen, every open space doesn't have to have Dilworth type activities. Sometimes its nice just to have the open view of the parkway or the buildings on the parkway or just the park itself. The idea that we should put for profit activities in parks constantly to keep homeless people from sleeping there is crazy

[1487]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I don't think she is saying it isn't improved - I think she is lamenting a lack of coordination between agencies that could have made full cap on Logan Square, that could have made it even better. If we want to eventually cap the whole thing, the cheapest way to do so would have been to do it all at once for operational efficiencies and to save on overhead. Now, the whole thing will ultimately cost more because it will be done it two stages. With the Family Court buildings still vacant and the Morman Temple area still under construction, now would have been the perfect time to do it.

Its not about coordination, it's about money. PennDOT is a transportation agency whose job is to maintain and improve roadways and bridges. Spending a few hundred million to add more park space (that will be largely underutilized) over a relatively small section of depressed highway isn't necessarily the best use of gas tax money. At the end of the day it's a vanity project. This is much different from Penns landing in terms of the overall environment around the highway people want to cover. Not only is this a much narrower opening vs 95/Columbus blvd, the parkway lines much of this area and thus it's largely bordered by stately institutional buildings and grassy medians. This is not a case of a highway cutting through a residential area and severing a place where there is great residential density. A cap would be nice- but the idea that in this area it would be a game changer that sparks all types of new growth makes no sense.

[1487]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Typical 1487 post misinterpreting the article because of dislike for who wrote it.

I understand exactly what she wrote. She doesn't understand what the hell PENNDOT does or what gas taxes and auto related fees are for. Then again, she doesn't like cars, etc. so it would make sense she has no clue regarding PennDOT. The statement she made regarding how the project was a "remaking of 676" was flat out inaccurate. Even you can concede that. As she noted elsewhere in the piece the purpose was to replace structurally deficient bridges- not to rebuild the highway or perform a major urban renewal project.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I don't know about "once in a lifetime," but such opportunities are exceedingly rare. It's not contradictory to call this an improvement, but to bemoan the lack of vision. As for who will use it, the negadelphian in me figures that we provided the homeless with a nicer spot. The only way Logan becomes usable is to square the circle. The dragstrip in/out of town doesn't need to run all the way to City Hall.

It's interesting how people change perspectives on taxes, spending other people's money, "big government" etc depending on the topic and how they feel about an initiative. When PennDOT (or any similar agency) sets out on a project there are specific goals and a BUDGET. It has nothing to do with "lack of vision". Remaking a large swath of the city with caps and new park space is not the primary (or secondary) function of a transportation agency. Nor is that the best use of tax revenue that is intended to keep roads and bridges safe and passable and address traffic/capacity issues. if the cap cost $100M is that a better use of PENNDOT money than improving SEPTA stations or repaving more roads or mitigating traffic issues? A park there would be nice, but Phily has no shortage of parks. If William Penn foundation or some similar entity wanted to donate or completely fund a project like that (similar to Penns landing) that would be different. The PL cap is only happening because the city and foundations are putting up $125M. PennDOT would not likely agree to fund such a project in its entirety when so much of the work is not actually critical to transportation.

[Jawnadelphia]

Yeah, but her job is not to write a nerd article on the role of a transportation agency. And when you stand on top of the Free Library (beer garden on the roof Thursday nights this summer), and look down, first thought -- is wow, pretty nice, ...but there's 3 remaining gaps! For Inga to lament what might have been there, or what should be there, or what's best for the City as an architectural review columnist...is her job.

[PhilliesPhan]

If the federal government and PennDOT made the mistake of severing North Philly from Center City with a submerged, uncapped highway, then why shouldn't we expect them to fix it? Attitudes towards city planning have changed (as demonstrated by the cap itself), and entities now recognize how connectedness, or lack thereof, impacts an area. If PennDOT's mission isn't to mitigate the impact of their projects upon the environments that they affect, then maybe it is time to change that. Why should our city's urban environment have to suffer for suburban motorists to get to their destinations as quickly as possible?

If I were a city politician, I would have put pressure on PennDOT to cap everything between 9th and 22nd Streets, while also completing the on-ramps to the Ben Franklin Bridge and simultaneously truncating the width of 5th, 6th, and Race Streets. Then, when the I-95 reconstruction projects progresses south of the Girard Avenue interchange, I would put pressure on state and federal officials to cap everything between Market and South Streets. The funding may not be completely there for such undertakings; nevertheless, the city isn't getting anything done by staying quiet about it.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

If the federal government and PennDOT made the mistake of severing North Philly from Center City with a submerged, uncapped highway, then why shouldn't we expect them to fix it?...

That my friend, is a great point.

[iheartphilly]

Highways are a necessity to move people and things in/out of the city. And, physically they placed I-95 at the edge of the city along the Delaware River which is not a bad thing. I-676 and I-76 are necessary evils. For I-676, at least it is not at grade but below grade at certain sections. I love the capping of I-676 and hope the powers-that-be push to get it fully capped. More parks and green space is a net-gain, no matter how you slice it.

[SEFTA]

It would just make sense. It would have arguably as much of a return as Penn's Landing will have. Because great cities do great things. Mediocre cities do mediocre things. It will be done.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Highways are a necessity to move people and things in/out of the city. And, physically they placed I-95 at the edge of the city along the Delaware River which is not a bad thing...

Let's not forget that some of the most historic blocks in America were destroyed for I-95, along the river. So many times I think of what it would look like had 95 been built on the other side of the river.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by 1487

It's interesting how people change perspectives on taxes, spending other people's money, "big government" etc depending on the topic and how they feel about an initiative. When PennDOT (or any similar agency) sets out on a project there are specific goals and a BUDGET. It has nothing to do with "lack of vision". Remaking a large swath of the city with caps and new park space is not the primary (or secondary) function of a transportation agency. Nor is that the best use of tax revenue that is intended to keep roads and bridges safe and passable and address traffic/capacity issues. if the cap cost $100M is that a better use of PENNDOT money than improving SEPTA stations or repaving more roads or mitigating traffic issues? A park there would be nice, but Phily has no shortage of parks. If William Penn foundation or some similar entity wanted to donate or completely fund a project like that (similar to Penns landing) that would be different. The PL cap is only happening because the city and foundations are putting up $125M. PennDOT would not likely agree to fund such a project in its entirety when so much of the work is not actually critical to transportation.

Have you ever heard of context sensitive solutions? It is a key function of transportation planning since the 1990s in this country. How the highway interfaces with the surrounding neighborhood, including the consideration of capping for the purposes of public space, is most CERTAINLY within their mandate. As for money, budgeting is a political process, and I think what a lot of people would like to see is simply some push from our local politicians to get more federal money allocated to PennDOT to fix this mistake they made—not re-allocating money destined to fix roads or improve SEPTA. The tax revenue generated from resulting development would also likely cover the cost. You could even partially fund it with a tax increment financing zone where bonds would be taken out and the additional revenue from development in adjoining blocks would be used to pay it back. There are so many ways to do this, at least try to do this, so why be so stubborn about it.

[1487]

Originally Posted by TallCoolOne

Yeah, but her job is not to write a nerd article on the role of a transportation agency. And when you stand on top of the Free Library (beer garden on the roof Thursday nights this summer), and look down, first thought -- is wow, pretty nice, ...but there's 3 remaining gaps! For Inga to lament what might have been there, or what should be there, or what's best for the City as an architectural review columnist...is her job.

I expect more awareness of how the world works from someone in her position. You don't apparently. She essentially said a bridge replacement project was a failure because they didn't add another $100M of capping and parks. The PRIMARY purpose of spending those tax dollars was to replace obsolete bridges. PENNDOT adding landscaping and some street reconfiguration to the project which will enhance the area but the focus is on how they were shortsighted for not doing a much larger, more expensive and invasive urban renewal project. And she also incorrectly indicates this was a once in a generation chance to do such a project.

[1487]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

If the federal government and PennDOT made the mistake of severing North Philly from Center City with a submerged, uncapped highway, then why shouldn't we expect them to fix it? Attitudes towards city planning have changed (as demonstrated by the cap itself), and entities now recognize how connectedness, or lack thereof, impacts an area. If PennDOT's mission isn't to mitigate the impact of their projects upon the environments that they affect, then maybe it is time to change that. Why should our city's urban environment have to suffer for suburban motorists to get to their destinations as quickly as possible?

If I were a city politician, I would have put pressure on PennDOT to cap everything between 9th and 22nd Streets, while also completing the on-ramps to the Ben Franklin Bridge and simultaneously truncating the width of 5th, 6th, and Race Streets. Then, when the I-95 reconstruction projects progresses south of the Girard Avenue interchange, I would put pressure on state and federal officials to cap everything between Market and South Streets. The funding may not be completely there for such undertakings; nevertheless, the city isn't getting anything done by staying quiet about it.

Most interstates were built with mostly federal money. I assure the system is not set up such that current federal dollars are set aside to "fix" mistakes of the 50s and 60s. After the Big Dig there was actually a push back on the idea of similar major urban highway burying projects and there have not been a ton launched since the big dig. Something like that is not standard and can only exist with very focused and significant financial aid from the feds. Very little of that going on any more which is why so many major highway, bridge and transit projects are relying on local bond issues or innovative financing schemes to get built.

[1487]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

Have you ever heard of context sensitive solutions? It is a key function of transportation planning since the 1990s in this country. How the highway interfaces with the surrounding neighborhood, including the consideration of capping for the purposes of public space, is most CERTAINLY within their mandate. As for money, budgeting is a political process, and I think what a lot of people would like to see is simply some push from our local politicians to get more federal money allocated to PennDOT to fix this mistake they made—not re-allocating money destined to fix roads or improve SEPTA. The tax revenue generated from resulting development would also likely cover the cost. You could even partially fund it with a tax increment financing zone where bonds would be taken out and the additional revenue from development in adjoining blocks would be used to pay it back. There are so many ways to do this, at least try to do this, so why be so stubborn about it.

You are all over the map. If the city wants to create a funding mechanism to do this fine- they are putting up $95M for pennslanding. I'm not opposed to that but it has nothing to do with my original statement. Transit departments are not developers or charged with massive urban renewal projects. Not their function. Period. You don't have to like it but that is reality. While these issues are important to people on this forum you can rest assured many state taxpayers would NOT think dropping a few hundred million on a vanity project is how their gas tax money should be use when we have so many poor roads.

Appealing to the feds is pointless- I guess people don't really follow national politics. Congress has barely been able to keep the DOT funded at existing levels for the last few years. THere is no huge pot of money sitting around that just needs to be tapped by "smart" and willing local politicians. This is why the K of P rail line and the BSL extension are such long shots. Feds are doing less and less in terms of carrying financial burden of new infrastructure. Most of the large "new" projects you see around the country are being funded in some alternative fashion and in many regions they get things done via voter referendums to create revenue streams to fund some major investment. PA doesn't have that.

In terms of moving cars safely (what PENNDOT is mostly concerned about) 676 is still working. The urban landscape part of things is a separate matter. To say it's PENNDOT's obligation (676 was probably paid for mostly with fed dollars anyway) to bury or cover the highway because today's better educated citizenry think it's a mistake is a stretch.

BTW when it comes to transportation decisions and how dollars are spent Feds>State>Local.

[Jawnadelphia]

Maybe 1487 should be Inga's editor... apparently you know it all, hell write the column yourself.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by TallCoolOne

Maybe 1487 should be Inga's editor... apparently you know it all, hell write the column yourself.

I think he just needs to move to another city for a few years and see how the big boys operate. Having bold vision is often seen as pointless by local Townies. The rest of us, who've lived all around the world, know what big ideas look like and how they can elevate the urban form.

Meanwhile, on a newly created parkland 90miles north of here, NYC is building this:



Source: NY Times

[Londonee]

I think he just needs to move to another city for a few years and see how the big boys operate. Having bold vision is often seen as pointless by local Townies. The rest of us, who've lived all around the world, know what big ideas look like and how they can elevate the urban form.

Meanwhile, on a newly created parkland 90miles north of here, NYC is building this:



Source: NY Times

But, ya know, we should be thankful for PENNDOT's largesse by throwing 2 random caps over a disaster of an urban highway.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think he just needs to move to another city for a few years and see how the big boys operate. Having bold vision is often seen as pointless by local Townies. The rest of us, who've lived all around the world, know what big ideas look like and how they can elevate the urban form.

Meanwhile, on a newly created parkland 90miles north of here, NYC is building this:



Source: NY Times

Unfortunately, we cannot compare Philadelphia to NYC. NYC is a world financial capital, and is the largest US city. There is so much more money flowing into NYC (both domestic and international) that this sort of stuff is going to be built in NYC.

We need to stop comparing Philadelphia to NYC, and start comparing it to Boston, San Francisco, DC, Miami, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, etc. Once we start doing this, we'll realize that Philadelphia is actually a pretty awesome place. It's not going to be on the level of NYC, ever.

[Larry King]

That park structure they're building in Hudson yards is hideous and I don't get it... who wants to climb around on all those steps? Like you climb up and do what? No real views, doesn't look like a place to sit down and people watch. Whole thing is very weird, waste of money