Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by wave46

Probably not cheaper than Winnipeg, but no where near the $2.5 billion they actually spent. That was positively ludicrous money for what is a fairly minor event in the grand scheme of things.

In a time of fiscal restraint, blowing money on a 2 week party that few care about is silly.

Oh, hosting an event that size nowadays for $130 million is impossible for all the reasons people have brought up (security costs, new venues, etc). It wouldn't even be that cheap if Toronto held it again in two years.

But yeah, even with the tons of legacy projects (THF I feel being the biggest), it's hard to justify 2.6 billion. The closest comparison I can think of (since it's hard to compare an event in Canada to an event in Chile or Brazil) would be the 2014 Glasgow Commonwealth games, and those only cost 720 million American. Even Melbourne in 2006 was only a billion.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wonder what St. Louis will do with that stadium? If I recall correctly, I don't think it's even been paid off. I hope the Kurt Warner magic carpet ride the Rams had that one season is worth the financial disaster it all turned out to be.

The city of St. Louis is stuck with $144m worth of debt from the stadium.

The best stadiums are ones that cities like Seattle (Kingdome) and Philadelphia (Veterans Stadium) still owed money on, even after they had been torn down for years.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

With inflation, the Winnipeg games cost $190 million. So inflation clearly doesn't play a notable factor in the cost difference. Lmao.



Apparently it did, so...

Of course it was a notable factor. So was the greater security concerns post 911, hosting a bigger games and Toronto have more expensive real estate than Winnipeg (real estate being 500% higher here in 2013 compared to 1997 ... y'know inflation specific to the games) and a slew of other factors. Stop being so bloody dimwitted defensive.

Fine. Live in bliss. Reality is so overrated. There's no harm in Saskscraper and his buddies believing IFG and NMC are to NFL standards (even ignoring minimum capacities) and they are the best stadium built and ever to be built in Canada.

I'm done with this nonsense homerism by simply offering a reality check.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Of course it was a notable factor. So was the greater security concerns post 911, hosting a bigger games and Toronto have more expensive real estate than Winnipeg (real estate being 500% higher here in 2013 compared to 1997 ... y'know inflation specific to the games) and a slew of other factors. Stop being so bloody dimwitted defensive.

Fine. Live in bliss. Reality is so overrated. There's no harm in Saskscraper and his buddies believing IFG and NMC are to NFL standards (even ignoring minimum capacities) and they are the best stadium built and ever to be built in Canada.

I'm done with this nonsense homerism by simply offering a reality check.

Never said that those didn't play a factor in the cost, cause they obviously did. You made a point about inflation being a major component of the cost and I wanted to demonstrate that I think it wasn't as big as you claimed. I never debated the other costs, though I again say Toronto could have done it for a lot cheaper than they actually did. I'm not being defensive, I'm having a conversation. Maybe don't be childish and call me a dimwit next time.

Trying to say IGF and NMS are NFL quality stadiums is stupid. They are for a different game and market. They aren't NFL calibre. I do think NMS is the nicest stadium in the country right now though, for a non-homer reason: even if it isn't a revolutionary stadium design, it is still a ridiculously nice, intimate, modern, and aesthetically pleasing (at least on the inside) stadium, the size of which there are maybe five examples in the past thirty years. I think it's only rivaled by BC Place and IGF, though we'll have to see once Rogers upgrades the SkyDome.

Ultimately, it's objective. Get pissed off if people are bashing Toronto, sure, but it's pointless to be mad cause someone thinks a brand new stadium is nicer than the rest in this country.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yep. Although I will concede that is really a catastrophe of a stadium. The roof, specifically. It somehow makes the whole place look like a big, ugly hangar. The Alamodome is almost as bad in that regard.

Definitely.

St. Louis' Stadium and the Alamodome were victims of timing. They moved fast to get away from the old school cookie-cutter stadiums that were in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and even St. Louis and went with these new domed stadiums which didn't look horrible on the outside, but has a cold cavernous feel inside. St. Louis moved into their dome in '95, while the Steelers moved out of Three Rivers Stadium only 5 years later and are playing in the fantastic Heinz Field. 5 years made all the difference.

While there are issues with Skydome, Toronto got lucky that it still has a more intimate feel (especially when the roof is opened) than these other 90's domed stadiums. It could have been so much worse.

[MonctonRad]

A couple of recent pictures (by mmmatt of the Moncton section) showing the current status of the new 8,500 seat events centre in downtown Moncton.





Exterior work is nearly complete (except for the large entrance plaza, and completing an extension of Highfield Street). Lots of interior work still to do. Grand opening is next summer.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A couple of recent pictures (by mmmatt of the Moncton section) showing the current status of the new 8,500 seat events centre in downtown Moncton.





Exterior work is nearly complete (except for the large entrance plaza, and completing an extension of Highfield Street). Lots of interior work still to do. Grand opening is next summer.

It looks very impressive, and will be a great addition to event facilities in the Maritimes.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A couple of recent pictures (by mmmatt of the Moncton section) showing the current status of the new 8,500 seat events centre in downtown Moncton.





Exterior work is nearly complete (except for the large entrance plaza, and completing an extension of Highfield Street). Lots of interior work still to do. Grand opening is next summer.

The faces shown in the first picture are wonderful but did they run out of funds when coming around to finishing the side shown in the second picture?

It's almost difficult to believe it's the same building because it looks so different from those two viewpoints.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by speedog

The faces shown in the first picture are wonderful but did they run out of funds when coming around to finishing the side shown in the second picture?

It's almost difficult to believe it's the same building because it looks so different from those two viewpoints.

It's merely a case of the street facing facade vs the rear facade. Since the back of the building is invisible (except to passengers on passing VIA trains), it didn't receive as much love.

Yes, I'm sure it's a cost saving thing..........

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's merely a case of the street facing facade vs the rear facade. Since the back of the building is invisible (except to passengers on passing VIA trains), it didn't receive as much love.

It's not uncommon for buildings of this size. The arena in Oshawa is much the same, although Moncton's street-front is nicer IMO, whereas buildings like Kingston's lack overall street-front presence but make up for it with interior charm.

[TownGuy]

Impressive arena, great scale!

Although I think our cities need a little more colour they made the right choice not going with the original circus tent like colour scheme on the upper portions.

[esquire]

Moncton's rink is impressively large. It looks bigger than a 8,500 seater.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

Moncton's rink is impressively large. It looks bigger than a 8,500 seater.

FWIW, it was originally 9,000 seats, but they opted to decrease capacity in order to increase individual seat size, giving the customers a higher quality experience.

The capacity of the building will be
hockey - 8,500
basketball - 9,400
concerts - 10,500

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

With inflation, the Winnipeg games cost $190 million. So inflation clearly doesn't play a notable factor in the cost difference. Lmao.



Apparently it did, so...

Construction inflation is much higher than what we think of as typical inflation. materials like steel had a noticeable price increase shortly after the new millennium. That is one of the major factors in the escalating costruction costs for arenas/stadiums in the early 2000s...that and all the additional toys that seem to be prerequisite for these facilities.

Rising security costs are another new reality for any international events now. I'm sure those costs were a pittance in Winnipeg prior to 911. Now, even a secondary sporting event like the Pan Am games probably runs a security bill of at least a few hundred million dollars.

IMO, if Winnipeg ran a similarly budgeted Pan Am games today with a few legacy projects and some refurbished facilities, I would not be surprised if the costs approached $500 million, possibly more.

[blueandgoldguy]

Though not the biggest, Moncton's new arena will be the best in Atlantic Canada.

Halifax's arena is almost 40 years old and starting to get rather long in the tooth. Any word of a replacement on the horizon?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Rising security costs are another new reality for any international events now. I'm sure those costs were a pittance in Winnipeg prior to 911. Now, even a secondary sporting event like the Pan Am games probably runs a security bill of at least a few hundred million dollars.

The number one security threat at the 99 Pan Am Games in Winnipeg was probably drunk guys rushing the field of play.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Halifax's arena is almost 40 years old and starting to get rather long in the tooth. Any word of a replacement on the horizon?

Let's see if Halifax Council approves a temporary pop-up stadium on a rugby field this week before we start thinking about a new arena.

I agree that Moncton's new arena will make it the premiere arena in the Maritimes. Halifax is the primary market but now there'll be a nicer building not too far away. We'll have to see how that sorts itself out in 5-10 years.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I agree that Moncton's new arena will make it the premiere arena in the Maritimes.

What do you mean by that? Better events? More profitable? Subjectivity a nicer looking building?

The Moncton arena is going to have around 15% of the capacity, a smaller market, and a lot less for visitors to do nearby. I think these characteristics are more significant than the age and style of the buildings.

There was always talk of a new arena in Halifax but not much in the way of concrete plans. A new arena would need to be significantly larger to justify the cost. The current one was renovated in 2015.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

What do you mean by that? Better events? More profitable? Subjectivity a nicer looking building?

What I meant by it was that it should be an upgrade it terms of amenities, infrastructure, equipment, and overall ability to handle show/event organizers, participants, and guests. Sort of how like NMS is supposedly the best stadium in Canada now because it's simply newer.

The best example I can give for this is the Centre Videotron versus the old Colisee. They're both in the same area, Videotron is slightly larger, but its amenities are light years ahead of what the Colisee could offer. Its engineered better as well for crowdflow and overall packing. It's not the same comparison since the Metro Centre received a recent refurbishment but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a 40 year old building and built as such.

Another comparison is probably TD Place Arena vs. CTC/SBC/Corel/Palladium. TD Place Arena is smaller and quite clearly a worse arena but definitely wins hands-down simply by being in a central urban location and not a 25 minute drive away. Recent surrounding upgrades to Lansdowne significantly enhance it as well. CTC is the premiere arena but TD Place Arena is better on a number of fronts.

Being a premiere arena =/= the best arena if we're taking whole-picture considerations of location, events, amenities surrounding the facility, etc.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

https://twitter.com/DLSpencer10/status/876889554090729472

Calgary Bid Exploration Committee says it will cost $4.6 billion to host 2026 Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games. #yyccc

Vancouver 2010 price tag was $7.7 billion. Calgary estimate of $4.6 billion for 2026 lower. CBEC says re-using '88 venues lowers costs.