Phoenix Development News (3)

[Jjs5056]

I may be missing some things, so take a look at the page of the brochure above that lists surrounding developments. The ones that caught my eye:

1. The entire area of 2nd Ave and 1st Ave surrounding the rec centers, MAG building, and massive garage will eventually house the Herberger School of Music. Not entirely shocking that ASU, who owns the land, has eventual plans to use it, but the timing (2019, IIRC) is quite soon, and the choice of school is disappointing IMO. If the School of Music were coming downtown, I would have liked to have seen it used to connect the Grand Ave and Roosevelt Row scene, expand the arts scene along Grant Street originated by Bentley and the existing ASU presence, or to facilitate a new Symphony Hall and expanded Convention Center onto its current footprint. A concert hall near the 7th Ave/VB/Grand intersection with the school itself lining 7th Ave going north, and dorms creating density on either side; the same built in a campus/ped-friendly takeover of the land south of Lincoln and West of 7th Street; a shared Symphony Hall with a shared music education midrise attached on the footprint of the Chase garage with dorms built on the remainder of the Law School property or as part of a redevelopment of the newly purchased Hyatt.

The amount of land it will eat up means low-density, along with the complete monopoly of ASU or govt-owned real estate with park views essentially removing the 'civic' part of the 'space,' and risk of an entire block of park-fronting buildings with 0 ground level commercial space. The rec center was maddening enough, but anything built to the north had better make sense adjacent to the one great piece of ASU investment downtown.

As I have said before, I would have preferred to have seen the land south of the rec centers offered up via RFP and replaced by private high-rises in exchange for a central station built with mixed uses to include the MAG offices, and with this news, the Herberger School of Arts. A concert hall feeding into the park would have been great and will be a good use of the 1st Ave land potentially.

2. The 200K square foot School of Pharmacy via ASU on the PBC land north of Fillmore listed as if it is imminent. We still have yet to see designs for this land, which is worrisome, but if they are open to public comment, this could be a fairly unoffensive use of the land adjacent to Roosevelt Row. It is not a treatment facility, which makes retail much less awkward, and it being a school means that just maybe they will finally add residential to the PBC plans. If 4th Street and McKinley were to include a pharmacy staffed by students, urgent care center, local equivalent to a Hallmark Store, and maybe a Hi-Health or other locally-based nutrition shop, that could definitely work.

3. A small office building is planned near 1st St and McDowell. I think McDowell > Hance, Central to 7th St is way underutilized. I think the Cancer park is beautiful, and could have been lined in the way Portland Park has been, with higher structures built as Hance approached. The Transwestern plans are underwhelming for what is really the only park-facing real estate left IMO.

4. Cottages on 6th Ave near Fillmore -- this land may be the land RFPd by the City. Good infill.

5. Land near the center of 2nd Ave on the west side between Fillmore and VB shown as "planned construction." Would be nice to see some smaller infill with so much going on in terms of restoration along WVB. If the Music School is designed properly, and this is legit, 2nd Ave would start to look halfway decent which is pretty good for that part of downtown. Restoration and use of the SunDevilAuto building as a restaurant, restoration of the house attached to O'Neil Printing, and redevelopment of at least 1 of O'Neil or the Wells Fargo Garage would make huge differences as well.

6. The 3-tower project on Pierce/3rd listed as 'student housing.' Has to be a mistake, right?

7. 250K office planned on the empty land above Central on Jackson -- disappointing continuation of the office takeover of what should have been a collection of local entertainment, arts, and cultural businesses, but... whatever at this point.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I don't think any of us expect to see AZ Center become the next great urban thing but it's still going to be an improvement even if just from a visual perspective. It's actually helpful for my two rentals on 7th Street because they can't as easily walk to Roosevelt or cityscape. If even 2-3 worthwhile places open I'll be happy.

But, why not? If you were going to pour this much $ into buying and renovating a place that others have poured $ into renovating and still seen it struggle, why wouldn't you take a new approach? Why give hype to the media about opening up to the sidewalks if you don't plan to? Why go through the process of identifying the districts feeding into the Center if you aren't going to somehow create a plan that addresses them? If you have a hotel brand and residential developer locked into building on the length of several blocks, why not set design standards that will make the Center of use to the employment center across the way? Why not help the success of both by using the remaining land for medical office/mixed-use vs. a garage extension?

They are obviously okay with the idea of demo'ing everything north of the retail center. If that is the case, why not lay infrastructure down that would help make the retail more accessible, and create a more modern circulation by making the road in the center of Fillmore into an actual street, and having Taylor cut through either as a street or pedestrian corridor?

If you are okay with demo'ing half the Center, why not consider demo'ing the least modern, most visibly failed building on-site, in the area with the most potential for a denser building to bring you cashflow? A 3-story 50% occupied building on 3rd Street cannot be seen as a valuable asset considering its age and the demand for all of retail, residential, and creative office that could be provided by smaller and taller buildings.

But by literally spending what they plan on spending on a totally useless valet on interior layout changes and the demolition of a piece of out of the center of the building, they would have made the mall much more accessible and successful; loading docks adjacent to the current Hooters and Corner Bakery, followed by large anchor stores (H&M and HomeGoods as examples) that have corner entrances to 3rd Street and to a new opening in the center of the building would have been great.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I hope so! I would love to see more projects of this scale be built in the odd random lots around central phoenix, It seems like developers haven't been able to secure financing for anything smaller than your standard block sized apartment complexes.

This size of apartment building would do more to "urbanize" downtown than anything.

Yes, this is the rendering that I posted about 2 years ago, so the plan has remained the same. I think it is a perfect fit, but am sad to see the entire thing up for sale as Eric Brown did a great job with his projects and I honestly have no clue how successful it is to offer up plans.

I think the financing issues we hear about constantly are a myth in many cases. If it were the case, how was 215 McKinley built? How was Cobra able to finance the remodel? How were the Lux owners able to purchase the property Sutra sits on and the lot adjacent? How was the City able to sell the Oscar land for a container project to be viable? I think that those who started the "but, it isn't viable to build anything but a 1,000 ft tower here" line may have been the developers who were simply land-banking until they could gobble up adjacent properties. For the most part, crappy superblocks will have the longterm impact of permanent residents being added. But, there is a reason I will always support reuse over tear-downs in the majority of cases, and you just need to look at 1st Street north of Pierce, or Central and Monroe to see why.

If I could choose three empty lots for infill, they'd be..

3rd/McKinley: I hope The Monocle opens, and that eventually, an at-risk historic home is relocated to the lot south of Songbird.

4th/Roosevelt: Similarly, I hope the Wurth house is used as something other than a Local AZ office, that an at-risk historic home OR a creative infill project is built on the lot and structure to the south, and that the historic home north of Bliss is turned into something great.

1st/Pierce: Finally, I hope someone with the mindset of whomever bought the Cobra building leases the building at the corner of 1st St/Pierce which has been on the market for years. It is now being marketed as retail on the 1st level with office above, so something like a Ramen Bar or other international cuisine would really make that area into a great pocket of restaurants and hopefully force in new tenants across the street and the public market could be upgraded.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

Here's my response I sent to him just now...

Mr. Talton:


I have read every one of your inaccurate and miserable tomes on Phoenix for a decade. You seem to have a really bad chip on your shoulder about this city. It's though you are working out your childhood issues that you haven't come to grips with yet about this town. You mock and deride this city from a point of view of 20 years ago, when in fact, this city is quite different than the city you portray. Trying to compare a city like Seattle to Phoenix or Philadelphia to Phoenix is just stupid. What city doesn't want to promote their milestones when it grows. Other cities would kill for the growth Phoenix is experiencing.

You seem mad that people keep moving here. I realize this city has it's problems, and so do most large American cities. However, there is a renewed sense of purpose happening in Phoenix and Tempe that does not reflect what you write about. People are not flocking to the edges of the Valley--quite the opposite! I'm in commercial real estate...I know this for a fact. Most every lot and parcel in Central and East Phoenix as well as Downtown Scottsdale and Tempe are being snatched up to build creative, mixed-use, urban places. New restaurants, greater transportation choices and a solid infrastructure make this city very livable, affordable and yes, easy to live. If you expected this city to sit dormant for you to have the comfort of halcyon days gone by, sorry to disappoint.


Every time there's a new article about Phoenix from you, you paint yourself into a corner and are universally laughed at for your cynical take on a city that many of us love, despite your snarky observations. If you're happy in Seattle, please sir, stay there and wait for Seattle, as it continues to progress, to disappoint you.

Well, I got a response from that fat windbag:

His response to the above: Thanks for reading. Realty hurts.
My response to that: You're an ass
His response to me: Stay classy
My response to that: Hope you deal with your anger soon

Actually, I'm glad he responded...probably firing all cylinders for his next hit piece on Phoenix.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

In that case, maybe it could rehabbed as a coffee house surrounded by a pocket park -- sort of like Birdhaus (fka Rollover and Shine) in Willo. Although I find the building rather ugly, the greater sin is the asphalt that surrounds it. That degrades the pedestrian experience immeasurably. Reading the comments on the petition, though, it appears a sizable number of people jumping on this bandwagon want to keep the Melrose Curve exactly as it is.

Nailed it with the pocket park idea:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/melr...demolish-pb-bell-central-phoenix-9418463

Indoor air quality expert, Stacey Champion:

http://www.champion-pr.com/who-we-are.html

[FN2187]

Does anyone know if the The Fillmore will still happen? And if so, when construction will begin?

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

Well, I got a response from that fat windbag:

His response to the above: Thanks for reading. Realty hurts.
My response to that: You're an ass
His response to me: Stay classy
My response to that: Hope you deal with your anger soon

Actually, I'm glad he responded...probably firing all cylinders for his next hit piece on Phoenix.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I can't believe there are people who care that much about the order of the largest cities.

It's a stat.

Believe it, it can be a political motivator, New York Gobbled up the "boroughs" to stay ahead of Chicago and LA (even Phoenix) gobbled up their smaller neighbors in the race to be biggest.

China declares entire regions the size of states as "urban cores" to get numbers of 50-80 million in their "city"

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by FN2187

Does anyone know if the The Fillmore will still happen? And if so, when construction will begin?

Last I remember, negotiations still happening and scheduled to break ground sometime next year (Phase I).

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

Nailed it with the pocket park idea:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/melr...demolish-pb-bell-central-phoenix-9418463

Indoor air quality expert, Stacey Champion:

http://www.champion-pr.com/who-we-are.html

And now it appears that many of the historic preservation groups I follow have jumped on this bandwagon. I can no longer take them seriously despite their previous good work on behalf of deserving structures.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

And now it appears that many of the historic preservation groups I follow have jumped on this bandwagon. I can no longer take them seriously despite their previous good work on behalf of deserving structures.

They will just hurt their own cause when it comes time to save structures that actually deserve to be saved. Hard to take a preservation effort seriously for something that that has no history or value to be saved.

This is equivalent to us trying to save Burger King on Central in about 20 years from now

[RichTempe]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

They will just hurt their own cause when it comes time to save structures that actually deserve to be saved. Hard to take a preservation effort seriously for something that that has no history or value to be saved.

This is equivalent to us trying to save Burger King on Central in about 20 years from now

I agree that this will not be helpful for preservation groups in the long term if they end up trying to save just any old building simply because it's 'a 60-year-old fixture'. As the saying goes: Choose your battles. I mean it's a pink, cinderblock drive through liquor store for crying out loud. If the developer would like to repurpose it into a coffee shop for a pocket park, then great, but otherwise let it go and work on saving something that actually has some historical meaning beyond just being somewhat old.

[Phxguy]

http://downtownphoenixjournal.com/2017/06/14/devmountain-coding-school-opening-in-downtown/

A coding school is opening up downtown. Keep kicking ass downtown!

[Phxguy]

I know there was a mention a while ago about a bar opening on 7th Ave, here's all info.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/gracies-tax-bar-downtown-phoenix-opening-2017-9412931

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Phxguy

I know there was a mention a while ago about a bar opening on 7th Ave, here's all info.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/gracies-tax-bar-downtown-phoenix-opening-2017-9412931

Been looking forward to this!

[combusean]

Herberger School should go downtown where it's slated. It's near the rest of ASU, budding and established performance venues, and it's free of gentrification pressures.

Grand Avenue is where many artists and NIMBYs and BANANAs from Roosevelt escaped to and I say let them have it for all time's sake. The last thing they need nor want is more gentrification, and upzoning/upbuilding that neighborhood is premature at best or disastrous for Phoenix's independent arts scene at worst.

I also saw the Barrister lot had a 250,000 square foot office building proposed, possibly instead of apartments, which is the third that sized to come to the neighborhood. All of this is still a far cry from the 1980s or even as late as 2008 when much larger structures were built.

The expansion of the AZ center garage is lame, but perhaps warranted with additional ASU and hotel and residential. A few stories of residential should nonetheless soften its impact--I've long hated that parking lot.

[RichTempe]

Not sure if anyone saw this article in the Arizona Republic from this past Sunday:

Phoenix area needs 150,302 new apartments by 2030

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-arizona-republic/20170618/282789241432905

Looks like the apartment boom is set to go on for a while, at least in the opinion of the National Multifamily Housing Council (NMHC) and the National Apartment Association (NAA).

[biggus diggus]

Oh really? The multi family housing council thinks we need more apartments? You don't say.

I've had a few vacancies lately and the apartments aren't that easy to rent, too much competition. Single family homes rent the moment the ad goes up.

[exit2lef]

Looks like the decision to allow demolition of the Clinton Campbell House is final. It's not mentioned in the article, but the Historic Preservation Commission also considered the matter of the Melrose liquor store. I'm not sure where that one stands.

http://downtowndevil.com/2017/06/20/86297/commission-upholds-clinton-campbell-demolition/

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Oh really? The multi family housing council thinks we need more apartments? You don't say.

Haha that was my exact thought.