Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's been widely covered in the francophone media in recent months that the Big O will see about 400M in renovations over the next 15 years or so. On top of that there will be another 150M for the roof.

If this shakes out like a BC Place renovation where half a billion dollars results in a functionally new stadium with a roof that works then this could be a smart play. But nothing ever seems to work out as planned with the Big O.

If Olympic Stadium gets a full BC Place style makeover, I wonder if the Alouettes would consider moving back in there? Even though it's arguably too big for the CFL, the Big O certainly beats Molson Stadium when it comes to club seats, skyboxes, concessions, etc. And there may be a certain nostalgic appeal to the place that wasn't there 20 years ago when the Alouettes last played there. Would the Impact consider such a move?

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Once again a new stadium opens up in Canada, and the good old residents of Toronto have to beat their chests and put it down. Only way they can brag themselves up I guess.

LOL weak. It's not only been Toronto forumers pointing out that those stadiums are nothing special. Like the architecture of both new stadiums. Neither compare to the Big'O in style or BC Place in elegance. They are nice and new, but so is my neighbours Toyota Camry. A style that is over done and forgettable.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by logan5

Minimum seating for NFL is 50 000. Obviously BC Place meets that requirement. If god forbid, the CFL were to fold, Vancouver would certainly get strong consideration for an NFL team.

While that might be minimum, only 2 teams in the NFL have stadiums under 61,000.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

FFS people Winnipeg and Regina have just opened new football stadiums that 15 years ago were not even on the horizon. I'm happy that I can sit in a couple of stadiums with individual seating, cup holders, modern bathrooms and not be cut in half by the prairie winds.
As for the US stadiums? Well that Merica for you with 10 times the population you are going to get a potential 10 times the stadium. If the Toronto folks want to shit on our ability to build nice buildings for our domestic league fill your boots. Just remember all your US teams (Jays, Raps and TFC) are just afterthoughts south of the border.

Most pathetic DE...FENSE of the week

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I knew about how they were bankrupting states and lower districts but, this list of facilities is still shocking to me.

What's really crazy is that we're now seeing 90s-built stadiums, which are gigantic and hugely expensive in their own right, being replaced by a generation of even more gigantic and expensive stadiums. (On the public's dime of course, because even though single payer healthcare is socialism, encouraging the development of pro football with government money is apparently red-blooded American capitalism at its finest.)

Here's the ancient, decrepit 1992-built Georgia Dome that is about to be demolished now that a replacement stadium is almost ready.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Most pathetic DE...FENSE of the week

Ya , I love he he called them our "US" teams as if that's an insult or something LOL. I suppose if he's saying that every Canadian city that has an NHL team also has a US team. And why don't we tallk about the CFL where while Canadian's have to make up 51% of the roster fewer then 30% of them ever get play time. Most of those CFL fans cheer for are AMERICANS.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

If this shakes out like a BC Place renovation where half a billion dollars results in a functionally new stadium with a roof that works then this could be a smart play. But nothing ever seems to work out as planned with the Big O.

If Olympic Stadium gets a full BC Place style makeover, I wonder if the Alouettes would consider moving back in there? Even though it's arguably too big for the CFL, the Big O certainly beats Molson Stadium when it comes to club seats, skyboxes, concessions, etc. And there may be a certain nostalgic appeal to the place that wasn't there 20 years ago when the Alouettes last played there. Would the Impact consider such a move?

I can't see it for either team. There's not much more depressing that going to a 1/4 to 1/3 full stadium and feeling the lack of energy. Argos games at Skydome were terrible - BMO Field is a better fit for them.

Saputo Stadium is pretty new as well (opened in 2008) and is soccer specific. Percival Molson Stadium was renovated in 2009. Better to have a smaller, more intimate stadium that's mostly full rather than some huge palace that's empty. I'm not even sure that whatever potential revenue from luxury boxes would improve the situation much - there isn't much demand for luxury boxes for CFL games (in Eastern Canada at least). This isn't a Habs game.

That's the big knock against the Big O - it has no regular tenant, nor does it have a realistic chance of landing one in the near future (no, the Expos aren't coming back). So, it looks a lot like a vanity project; a big chunk of money on something that won't be used much.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by esquire

What's really crazy is that we're now seeing 90s-built stadiums, which are gigantic and hugely expensive in their own right, being replaced by a generation of even more gigantic and expensive stadiums. (On the public's dime of course, because even though single payer healthcare is socialism, encouraging the development of pro football with government money is apparently red-blooded American capitalism at its finest.)

Here's the ancient, decrepit 1992-built Georgia Dome that is about to be demolished now that a replacement stadium is almost ready.

This was a bad example. This was done by private investments.

Source: http://www.ajc.com/sports/football/falcons-secure-850m-stadium-financing/1hh8Aj1ni6jnAC6I2ZiluL/
The Falcons organization has closed on $850 million in permanent financing for the new Mercedes-Benz Stadium, team officials said Monday.

The new financing from Bank of America, SunTrust Banks and 18 institutional investors converts construction loans to long-term financing about a year earlier than the team had projected, according to Falcons executive vice president and chief financial officer Greg Beadles.

Beadles said in an interview that approximately 1/3 of the financing is from the two banks and the other 2/3 from private placement with institutional investors such as large insurance firms and pension fund managers. The debt will be repaid to the institutional investors over 26 years and to the banks over a shorter term, he said.

Some contractually obligated revenue from stadium naming rights, other sponsorship deals and suite sales are pledged toward re-paying the debt, Beadles said.

“The timing of getting this done early … speaks really well of the project overall,” Beadles said. “Typical of what we had modeled was for the permanent financing to take place after the construction was done (in 2017) and maybe even into the operation (of the stadium) a few months.

And now they almost have this amazing football structure.
[IMG]Mercedes Benz Stadium by Jeff James, on Flickr[/IMG]

[esquire]

^ Even if the Expos came back there's no chance that they'd play more than a couple of seasons at the Big O on an interim basis.

I didn't think there was much of a chance that the Impact would be interested in the Big O given that they have their own stadium with a grass pitch. The Alouettes seemed like more of a possibility given that Molson Stadium is probably a bit more of a compromise, but between the location and gargantuan size of the Big O it may not make much sense.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

This was a bad example. This was done by private investments.

Only in part. Public spending on the Mercedes Benz Stadium project is pegged at around $650 million, or just under half of the project cost.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/01/20...m-thanks-to-state-funded-parking-garage/

Even if you can rationalize $650 million in public funds for a new stadium, when the one it's replacing is from 1992 and works just fine, ya gotta wonder.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

What's really crazy is that we're now seeing 90s-built stadiums, which are gigantic and hugely expensive in their own right, being replaced by a generation of even more gigantic and expensive stadiums. (On the public's dime of course, because even though single payer healthcare is socialism, encouraging the development of pro football with government money is apparently red-blooded American capitalism at its finest.)

Here's the ancient, decrepit 1992-built Georgia Dome that is about to be demolished now that a replacement stadium is almost ready.

The lunacy has to stop at some point. (I hope). It seems that they're really tapped out for ideas on the next greatest thing in sporting entertainment, they're putting all sorts of weird features into stadiums now - bizarre "avant-garde" design, fish tanks, swimming pools, whatever the heck that thing is in the Marlins' outfield is - and have lost the plot.

Pro sports has lost the 'common man' theme IMO.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

The lunacy has to stop at some point. (I hope). It seems that they're really tapped out for ideas on the next greatest thing in sporting entertainment, they're putting all sorts of weird features into stadiums now - bizarre "avant-garde" design, fish tanks, swimming pools, whatever the heck that thing is in the Marlins' outfield is - and have lost the plot.

Pro sports has lost the 'common man' theme IMO.

When I was a kid pro sports were a common man sort of thing to do... you could still buy Jets tickets (in the nosebleeds, but still) for the price of a movie ticket. These days, the prices are out of reach for the working class, and even the middle class is becoming relegated to the nosebleed seats.

It's fine to have public contributions to pro venues, but when the only people who can afford to attend regularly are six-figure earners, then what is the public purpose? No one would expect government to subsidize fancy golf course country clubs for rich dudes to play golf and have nice dinners at, yet the pro sports stuff is not that far off. I'm surprised that there isn't more public push-back, especially in the US where money is in short supply for everything but no one ever says no to team owners no matter how outlandish the request.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

Only in part. Public spending on the Mercedes Benz Stadium project is pegged at around $650 million, or just under half of the project cost.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/01/20...m-thanks-to-state-funded-parking-garage/

Even if you can rationalize $650 million in public funds for a new stadium, when the one it's replacing is from 1992 and works just fine, ya gotta wonder.

Yeah, 850 million doesn't buy this. The state and local government usually end up with the responsibility of paying back the $850 million loan to the banks and private equity investors when the income the facility generates falls short of the target. The $1.5 billion stadium has little value without a team and that's the first thing they will threaten to move if the state doesn't come forth with the money.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Only in part. Public spending on the Mercedes Benz Stadium project is pegged at around $650 million, or just under half of the project cost.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/01/20...m-thanks-to-state-funded-parking-garage/

Even if you can rationalize $650 million in public funds for a new stadium, when the one it's replacing is from 1992 and works just fine, ya gotta wonder.

True, but nothing they do south of the border makes a lot of sense to me. That old stadium is ugly though. Looks like a giant circus tent.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

LOL weak. It's not only been Toronto forumers pointing out that those stadiums are nothing special. Like the architecture of both new stadiums. Neither compare to the Big'O in style or BC Place in elegance. They are nice and new, but so is my neighbours Toyota Camry. A style that is over done and forgettable.

You're commenting on NMS like you've actually been to it? The fact that Toronto has no chance at building stadiums half as nice as NMS & IGF just goes to show how under-equipped for sport the GTA really is. Besides TD Place, the farther east you go in Canada the worse it gets so don't be too hard on yourselves though 6ix

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

You're commenting on NMS like you've actually been to it? The fact that Toronto has no chance at building stadiums half as nice as NMS & IGF just goes to show how under equipped for sport the GTA really is. Besides TD Place, the farther east you go in Canada the worse it gets so don't be too hard on yourselves though 6ix

In fairness to Toronto, Skydome has been the most spectacular stadium in Canada since it was built nearly 30 years ago.

Let's call a spade a spade here, NMS and IGF are closer to the BMO end of the spectrum than they are to Skydome.

[SaskScraper]

^^would Toronto on its own be able to build a Skydome in this day & age?
Never..

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

^^would Toronto on its own be able to build a Skydome in this day & age?
Never..

I don't see why they couldn't. But they don't need another new stadium... there is Skydome for baseball, BMO for rectangular field sports, that pretty well covers it. I guess if Toronto landed the NFL or the Olympics or whatever then there could be a need for a massive new stadium, but who knows when or if that would actually happen.

Skydome cost as much to build (and this was 30 years ago) as NMS and IGF put together. I see no reason to doubt Toronto's capacity to build a new stadium if it had to.

[SaskScraper]

^^ the Skydome was sold to Rogers for $25 million ten years ago, who knows how much its worth even now
IGF all said and done after repairs cost $384 million btw..

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

You're commenting on NMS like you've actually been to it? The fact that Toronto has no chance at building stadiums half as nice as NMS & IGF just goes to show how under-equipped for sport the GTA really is. Besides TD Place, the farther east you go in Canada the worse it gets so don't be too hard on yourselves though 6ix

I wouldn't call TD place an exception. It's a 50 year old stadium that was only half-rebuilt (forced to) since the FIFA women's world cup lead to a bunch of cracks in the structure.