DENVER | Transportation Thread

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

The newer plan (and I think the one DIA officials currently prefer over some other proposals) is to build the two new concourses east and west parallel to the Jeppesen Terminal with a separate train system connecting them one level beneath the current train system. If that's the case, then there would have to be a new platform built beneath the current one and a redesign of the current platform. They haven't really yet announced more definite details about this plan, so that's why I think they aren't showing the train platforms yet in this terminal redesign.

The only plan that I was aware of from what I read from their updated master plan was to build a whole new terminal south of Jeppesen. Because this do-over will increase the capacity from 50 million to over 80 million passengers that extends the capacity life out to 2031 or so.

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The only plan that I was aware of from what I read from their updated master plan was to build a whole new terminal south of Jeppesen. Because this do-over will increase the capacity from 50 million to over 80 million passengers that extends the capacity life out to 2031 or so.

That was one of the other alternatives, but from what I heard, it was almost unanimously rejected and that the east-west concourse idea is the preferred plan.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

That was one of the other alternatives, but from what I heard, it was almost unanimously rejected and that the east-west concourse idea is the preferred plan.

Eh, not disagreeing with east-west concourses. That was my understanding as well. My guess is that they haven't made any final decisions and having found a way to increase capacity out to 2031 they have a few years before they need to decide. The question will be if 80 million is the max capacity for Jeppesen then what? My understanding is they would likely add a new terminal south of Jeppesen.

EDIT: Oh boy, rather than digging through a long pdf as I did, I've found a summary version that you can now check out. Click on the 6th question listed to the right. https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/masterplan/mp/the-future.html

[spr8364]

The existing DIA concourses can be expanded to the east and west for a temporary increase in gates. Especially C. In fact, several years ago they designed an expansion to C on one end that added, I think 12 gates. But they didn't build it. I think they said something in the recent presentation about adding more gates by 2020. That seems like that would only be an expansion to the existing concourse for now. Not too sure how that affects train capacity though.

EDIT: Or maybe they did build it, but they were planning to add another expansion to the other end. It's been a while.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by spr8364

Not too sure how that affects train capacity though.

Excellent question. A logistics person could explain the 'how' but when they built the hotel they also extended the train. This also added capacity.

With this latest planned renovation they've lifted the passenger traffic capacity potential to 80 million. Adding gates to and expanding the existing concourses is not an issue. The passenger capacity question goes to the train/people mover capacity and the ability of Jeppesen Terminal to handle/screen passengers. Above 80 million they will need both new people mover and new terminal capacity is their thinking.

Rockies are killing the Indians.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by spr8364

The existing DIA concourses can be expanded to the east and west for a temporary increase in gates. Especially C. In fact, several years ago they designed an expansion to C on one end that added, I think 12 gates. But they didn't build it. I think they said something in the recent presentation about adding more gates by 2020. That seems like that would only be an expansion to the existing concourse for now. Not too sure how that affects train capacity though.

EDIT: Or maybe they did build it, but they were planning to add another expansion to the other end. It's been a while.

I believe it was 9 gates on C, which were built on the west side. C23-C31.

[The Dirt]

Why not just run trains more frequently? Or, at worst, add a bypass track to run express trains to the farther concourses. I really hate the idea of the east/west concourses. The only positive I see is that it'll force more people into the great hall.

[LooksLikeForever]

As someone who travels fairly frequently for work and pleasure out of DIA, there are times when the trains are basically at capacity as it is. If you're traveling through DIA Monday morning or Thursday/Friday around 4-6 p.m., the trains are solidly jammed. I usually fly United or Southwest so I'm boarding at B or C gates, but by the time the train gets to the A gates, there's barely any room left.

Unfortunately I don't think most people know about the bridge crossing from A gates to the terminal, or they're too lazy or otherwise unable to make the journey on foot. Anytime I fly into A concourse I make an effort to take the bridge, it's a much more pleasant experience than getting on the crowded train.

I think one of the great mistakes of DIA was not including a pedestrian path the entire length of the airport train. Hartsfield-Jackson airport in Atlanta has an even longer concourse train, but there is a pedestrian walkway that spans the entire length. This allows people who prefer to walk the option to do so, as well as permitting airport operations even when the train is down for maintenance or emergencies. At least once a year the DIA train breaks unexpectedly and it causes massive issues as they have to implement bus service above ground on the tarmac.

I suspect it's much too late to add a pedestrian path, but one can dream.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

As someone who travels fairly frequently for work and pleasure out of DIA, there are times when the trains are basically at capacity as it is. If you're traveling through DIA Monday morning or Thursday/Friday around 4-6 p.m., the trains are solidly jammed. I usually fly United or Southwest so I'm boarding at B or C gates, but by the time the train gets to the A gates, there's barely any room left.

Unfortunately I don't think most people know about the bridge crossing from A gates to the terminal, or they're too lazy or otherwise unable to make the journey on foot. Anytime I fly into A concourse I make an effort to take the bridge, it's a much more pleasant experience than getting on the crowded train.

I think one of the great mistakes of DIA was not including a pedestrian path the entire length of the airport train. Hartsfield-Jackson airport in Atlanta has an even longer concourse train, but there is a pedestrian walkway that spans the entire length. This allows people who prefer to walk the option to do so, as well as permitting airport operations even when the train is down for maintenance or emergencies. At least once a year the DIA train breaks unexpectedly and it causes massive issues as they have to implement bus service above ground on the tarmac.

I suspect it's much too late to add a pedestrian path, but one can dream.

A few years ago they talked about maybe adding one, but decided not to, and I don't see it in the master plan anywhere. The cost would be substantial at this point and I guess the airport doesn't see the cost/benefit is worth it.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

As someone who travels fairly frequently for work and pleasure out of DIA, there are times when the trains are basically at capacity as it is. If you're traveling through DIA Monday morning or Thursday/Friday around 4-6 p.m., the trains are solidly jammed. I usually fly United or Southwest so I'm boarding at B or C gates, but by the time the train gets to the A gates, there's barely any room left.

Unfortunately I don't think most people know about the bridge crossing from A gates to the terminal, or they're too lazy or otherwise unable to make the journey on foot. Anytime I fly into A concourse I make an effort to take the bridge, it's a much more pleasant experience than getting on the crowded train.

I think one of the great mistakes of DIA was not including a pedestrian path the entire length of the airport train. Hartsfield-Jackson airport in Atlanta has an even longer concourse train, but there is a pedestrian walkway that spans the entire length. This allows people who prefer to walk the option to do so, as well as permitting airport operations even when the train is down for maintenance or emergencies. At least once a year the DIA train breaks unexpectedly and it causes massive issues as they have to implement bus service above ground on the tarmac.

I suspect it's much too late to add a pedestrian path, but one can dream.

Yes I miss being able to use the bridge when I flew primarily on Frontier and American. Now that I mostly fly Southwest taking the train to/from C is a pain.

Normally when you board the train after security there is only 1 side boarding trains. If they consistently could run both that would help.

[TakeFive]

The ART


Image courtesy: CGTN via IBT

World's first railless train? China unveils hybrid self-driving electric vehicle
June 7, 2017 By Agamoni Ghosh - International Business Times

The vehicle can carry 307 passengers at a speed of up to 70km an hour.

China has unveiled an innovative public transportation solution to ease commute in the form of a hybrid self-driving vehicle that looks half like a train and half a bus and may be the world's first railless train.

Termed as the Autonomous Rail Transit (ART) the elongated vehicle was shown off in the city of Zhuzhou in Hunan province. The transit looks similar to a train and has three standard train/tube like compartments but runs on a virtual track rather than rails, making it technically a bus.

• Video Link


OR you can settle for a little less and attend the presentation of the preferred route for DART's Dallas CBD Second Light Rail Alignment (D2) Subway.

[mishko27]

Disagreement emerges between RTD, contractor over rail-line problems

After more than a year of trying to address problems at crossing gates along RTD's A, B, and G commuter-rail lines, the systems that control the timing of the gates are the best they can be, even though that may not satisfy federal and state regulators, the contractor operating the trains has told the transit agency.

And with Denver Transit Partners (DTP) saying there is no improvement in sight, or even possible "with available technology," the contractor told the Regional Transportation District in a May 26 letter to quit levying fines against it for problems beyond the contractor’s control.

Fun stuff.

[seventwenty]

For a fun comparison, here's the "initial" buildout plan from an old Jeppesen chart:



Source: Mark Bird and Aviation Photographs. It's the best website for old Stapleton Airport photos.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

As someone who travels fairly frequently for work and pleasure out of DIA, there are times when the trains are basically at capacity as it is. If you're traveling through DIA Monday morning or Thursday/Friday around 4-6 p.m., the trains are solidly jammed. I usually fly United or Southwest so I'm boarding at B or C gates, but by the time the train gets to the A gates, there's barely any room left.

Unfortunately I don't think most people know about the bridge crossing from A gates to the terminal, or they're too lazy or otherwise unable to make the journey on foot. Anytime I fly into A concourse I make an effort to take the bridge, it's a much more pleasant experience than getting on the crowded train.

I think one of the great mistakes of DIA was not including a pedestrian path the entire length of the airport train. Hartsfield-Jackson airport in Atlanta has an even longer concourse train, but there is a pedestrian walkway that spans the entire length. This allows people who prefer to walk the option to do so, as well as permitting airport operations even when the train is down for maintenance or emergencies. At least once a year the DIA train breaks unexpectedly and it causes massive issues as they have to implement bus service above ground on the tarmac.

I suspect it's much too late to add a pedestrian path, but one can dream.

Are there multiple tunnels between the concourses? They might have built but sealed off the tunnels in preparation for future expansions (the tunnels at the SLC airport were actually built decades ago but sealed off until the new airport was needed). The new SLC airport is initially opening with one tunnel but because of the construction phasing when the east portions of both the north and south concourses open, the other two tunnels will open. Ironically we will have 3 pedestrian tunnels but no train. However, the distance between the two concourses at SLC isn't too far, not the 3 or more planned at DIA - but according to some tribune article from a couple months ago the airport may have to begin construction of a third concourse 5 years after the first two concourses for the new airport open.


Edit: apparently it would cost $60 million.

[trubador]

Originally Posted by mishko27

Disagreement emerges between RTD, contractor over rail-line problems


Fun stuff.

Wow, I'm not buying DTP's story that there is nothing more they can do. I think they are saying that there is nothing more they can do with the existing system and it cheaper to just go to litigation then it would be for a redesign.

[LooksLikeForever]

I'm a little bit confused. RTD recently received approval to continue testing the G line (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2...-gets-nod-to-resume-tests-on-g-line.html) but at the same time, Denver Transit Partners believe they "may not satisfy federal and state regulators"?

what does that mean? How can they continue testing if their supposed 'fixes' may not even satisfy federal regulations?

As a Stapleton resident, the quiet-zone has been the subject of significant discussion around the neighborhood. On NextDoor there are quite a few residents who have discussed legal action and/or selling their houses because they can't stand the 'A line' train noise. My understanding is that the trains cannot go quiet until they receive Federal approval, but now it sounds like that may never happen.

Oh boy, this is going to be a mess.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

As a Stapleton resident, the quiet-zone has been the subject of significant discussion around the neighborhood. On NextDoor there are quite a few residents who have discussed legal action and/or selling their houses because they can't stand the 'A line' train noise. My understanding is that the trains cannot go quiet until they receive Federal approval, but now it sounds like that may never happen.

Oh boy, this is going to be a mess.

Stapleton- land of the overpriveleged and exaggerated sense of entitlement. As another Stapleton resident, I'm constantly dismayed at the — that's complained about.

Anyways, my take is that DTP is arguing that the FRA and PUC are imposing a nebulous guideline (the +\- 10% gate crossing) that cannot be met by the system and that the 15-second guideline should be used instead. RTD seems to be arguing something similar to the FRA. Sounds as if DTP is formally asking RTD to change the performance contract to reflect this change.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

I'm a little bit confused. RTD recently received approval to continue testing the G line (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2...-gets-nod-to-resume-tests-on-g-line.html) but at the same time, Denver Transit Partners believe they "may not satisfy federal and state regulators"?

what does that mean? How can they continue testing if their supposed 'fixes' may not even satisfy federal regulations?

As a Stapleton resident, the quiet-zone has been the subject of significant discussion around the neighborhood. On NextDoor there are quite a few residents who have discussed legal action and/or selling their houses because they can't stand the 'A line' train noise. My understanding is that the trains cannot go quiet until they receive Federal approval, but now it sounds like that may never happen.

Oh boy, this is going to be a mess.

Is there any basis for a legal action though? I feel like that's just "I'm pissed off" kinda talk...

[LooksLikeForever]

Originally Posted by mishko27

Is there any basis for a legal action though? I feel like that's just "I'm pissed off" kinda talk...

I don't know if there is any legal basis, but there was a post in early April with 50+ replies to a gentleman stating he was ready to pursue legal action. I think many of the homeowners in the area must have been promised by their realtors/builders that the train noise was only temporary, and it has gone on far longer than most anticipated. I certainly don't think RTD misled the public about the horns, but perhaps a few homeowners should be taking their concerns up with their real estate agents rather than RTD.

To be fair, there are several homeowners in the neighborhood that don't mind the train noise, and some (like myself) even enjoy it. It reminds us that we're living in an actual, functioning city. The sound of the train suggests that we're connected to something larger than the immediate world around us and I find it comforting.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

I don't know if there is any legal basis, but there was a post in early April with 50+ replies to a gentleman stating he was ready to pursue legal action. I think many of the homeowners in the area must have been promised by their realtors/builders that the train noise was only temporary, and it has gone on far longer than most anticipated. I certainly don't think RTD misled the public about the horns, but perhaps a few homeowners should be taking their concerns up with their real estate agents rather than RTD.

To be fair, there are several homeowners in the neighborhood that don't mind the train noise, and some (like myself) even enjoy it. It reminds us that we're living in an actual, functioning city. The sound of the train suggests that we're connected to something larger than the immediate world around us and I find it comforting.

I think if the FRA signs off on the fix they've accomplished so far and/or they approve the change from 10% to 15 seconds--either way, I believe the horns will stop. IIRC, the problem with the crossing gates is that they stay down too long, not not long enough, so horns shouldn't be needed once RTD gets the final OK from the feds.