Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I'd be curious to hear what your regular travel times are via car for those trips. In fact, we should have a "Salt Lake Transit News Thread Poll", where we each take turns saying how long our commute is (miles), how long it takes (minutes) and how what mode(s) is used. We can then determine determine how fast a transit alternative needs to be in order to be considered attractive.

I'll go first:
Distance: 10 miles
Time: 35 minutes
Modes: Bike+TRAX

Alternatively, if I skip TRAX:
Distance: 9 miles
Time: 45 minutes
Mode: Bike

So when I use TRAX, my average speed is (10 miles)/(35 minutes)*(60 minutes/hour) = 17 mph. When I use my bike, my average speed is 12 mph.
I haven't ever driven myself to work, so I can't make a fair comparison. Google says it is 10.8 miles by car and that it should take 18 minutes (averaging 36 mph) but that isn't taking traffic into account, which is the whole point of a survey.
So be brave! Throw your commute times/distances/modes out onto the internet for us to see! Maybe we'll learn something interesting.

I like this.

Distance 2.3 miles
Time: 13 minutes (leaving my house to sitting at my desk).
Mode: Driving+walking

If I took the bus/trax route, it would take me roughly 30 minutes.

Now, if SLC did get funding and sped up bus service along 6th North and around Rose Park to 15 minute frequencies at least in the morning and evenings, I would change to full transit for commuting.

I am disabled and walking isn't bad with my crutch but standing can be painful after a few minutes. 15 minute or better frequencies would get me to drop the car nearly completely. I already walk to get groceries most of the time.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Speaking of transit ridership increases, one way to do that, without increasing services, which with increased ridership it would be easier to justify the increase in funding. The way to increase without expanding service is to substantially increase densities at every single Trax and FrontRunner Stations. Each Trax station needs to have 1,000 housing units minimum within 1/4 mile of the station. Sandy 100th S is getting there as is Murray North (45th) but there are many others that are very much lacking, that have some serious potential, Midvale is starting, just North and West of Midvale Central station. There is a ton of property surrounding that station, with the old Family Stores, adjacent to the station east and west as well as across the street to the north where Joe Moreleys is. Once the one under construction leases out I expect the other properties to redevelop quickly.

I agree that this would help. I think it could be expanded from Rail to also include BRT and the 15 minute frequency bus routes. Most of these have large swaths of land that is ripe for redevelopment.

5400 South and 3500 South both have 15 minute or better frequencies all day and are full of strip malls and even nearly abandoned strip malls (5400S and Bangerter / 3500S and 40th West) being some of the larger, underused portions of land along the routes.

WVC can do more around many of the stations along the Green Line. Decker Lake, 9th West and especially Redwood Road. Redwood Road has great potential with Trax, frequent bus service and proximity to the 201.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Makid

Distance 2.3 miles
Time: 13 minutes (leaving my house to sitting at my desk).
Mode: Driving+walking

(2.3 miles)/(13 minutes)*(60 minutes/hour) = 10.6 mph average speed.
Ha ha, I totally beat you Makid!

Except, of course, for the fact that you spend only 13 minutes commuting while I take 35... more than twice as along...

But I'm most impressed with 2.3 miles. That's amazing short. Well done.

Anyone else care to contribute to our little survey?

[billbillbillbill]

I'll jump in. I live in Riverton close to Redwood and 12600 south. I figured being close to those major roads would give me better access which is kind of true. My office is in Murray 5 min. walk from 53rd Trax/Frontrunner station.

Driving: 25-30 min. via I-15 most days

Transit-
Morning:
Option 1- Herriman Flex 534 bus pickup in Riverton at 7:10 am dropping off at South Jordan Frontrunner. Take frontrunner 1 stop to Murray arriving at 7:38 am. Total time to work- 45 min. (including walking to stop)
Option 2- Board Riverton Flex 518 bus at 6:46 am which takes me around the city and to Daybreak trax stop. Take red line to Murray station arriving at 7:44 am. Total time to work: 65 min.

Evening:
Leave work a bit early to catch 5:03 pm red line train south to Daybreak. Take F518 bus dropping me off at 5:46 pm. Total time home: 60 min.


In summary, I actually have a few OK options from my 1/4 acre in the burbs to get to work but the return trip is not as great. I actually do take the morning bus/frontrunner in to work several times a year but only if I am getting picked up after.

A couple of frustrations with UTA routing-
There is a bus (Route 526) that travels between the Draper Frontrunner station to The Riverton LDS Church Office Building. Whats goofy is it only picks up westbound in the AM and only Eastbound in the afternoon. Why not make it an actual route with pickups in the morning to take people along 12600 south to get to Draper Frontrunner?

The other hole I feel in their system is the south end of Redwood road. Living so close to Redwood, it makes me frustrated that UTA's Redwood Road 217 bus route goes no further south than the West Jordan trax station and Route 218 only goes to 104th south. I have requested several times a Redwood Road bus that went the entirety of Salt Lake County. That would allow me to head north and either jump on trax in West Jordan or go all the way to Taylorsville then transfer to 5400 bus. I don't love UTA's fascination with these circular and convoluted flex routes rather than a consistent grid on major roads.

Probably way more than the original question was asked...

[TonyAnderson]

Some more info on the billion dollars being allocated for roads.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/5309728-155/1-billion-windfall-for-utah-highways

Bangerter basically being converted into a freeway south of WVC. A new southbound I15 lane from 2100 S to 12300 S. Some northbound stuff between 9000 S and the belt route with a flyover bridge of some sort.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by billbillbillbill

I'll jump in. I live in Riverton close to Redwood and 12600 south. I figured being close to those major roads would give me better access which is kind of true. My office is in Murray 5 min. walk from 53rd Trax/Frontrunner station.

Driving: 25-30 min. via I-15 most days

Transit-
Morning:
Option 1- Herriman Flex 534 bus pickup in Riverton at 7:10 am dropping off at South Jordan Frontrunner. Take frontrunner 1 stop to Murray arriving at 7:38 am. Total time to work- 45 min. (including walking to stop)
Option 2- Board Riverton Flex 518 bus at 6:46 am which takes me around the city and to Daybreak trax stop. Take red line to Murray station arriving at 7:44 am. Total time to work: 65 min.

Evening:
Leave work a bit early to catch 5:03 pm red line train south to Daybreak. Take F518 bus dropping me off at 5:46 pm. Total time home: 60 min.

Awesome. Thanks for jumping in.
Google maps says it is 12.3 miles from 12600 S Redwood Road to the Murray Central Station, and at 27.5 minutes (average between 25 and 30 minutes), that gives you an average speed of 27 mph. You are clearly much faster than Makid and me.

What amazes me is how long the transit options take, just in time. 45 and 65 minute options are significantly more than driving. Perhaps if it were all done on a train where people can work it might be acceptable, as you say it is on a bus for at least part of that time.
Using the same distance, your option 1 has an average speed of 16 mph, and your option 2 has an average speed of 11 mph. This suggests I or any other reasonably fit cyclist could beat option 2 on a bike.

Thanks for the highly valuable information. Anyone else?

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by billbillbillbill

...
The other hole I feel in their system is the south end of Redwood road. Living so close to Redwood, it makes me frustrated that UTA's Redwood Road 217 bus route goes no further south than the West Jordan trax station and Route 218 only goes to 104th south. I have requested several times a Redwood Road bus that went the entirety of Salt Lake County. That would allow me to head north and either jump on trax in West Jordan or go all the way to Taylorsville then transfer to 5400 bus. I don't love UTA's fascination with these circular and convoluted flex routes rather than a consistent grid on major roads.

Probably way more than the original question was asked...

The Bluffdale bus used to go the entire length of Redwood (well, only to 400 S, not further north) and then connect to downtown SLC, but they got rid of that when TRAX arrived.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Hatman

.

Anyone else care to contribute to our little survey?

I don't know how you'll calculate miles per hour for my commute.

My commute starts in my bedroom, I cross the family room, and enter my office. It takes about 20 seconds.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I don't know how you'll calculate miles per hour for my commute.

My commute starts in my bedroom, I cross the family room, and enter my office. It takes about 20 seconds.

Based on a highly sophisticated algorithm and a rigorous statistical examination, I feel comfortable with these results:

∞ mph

[airhero]

I live east of downtown and work on 2200 West near the airport.

Driving: From door to desk 15-20 minutes. I usually go down North Temple which is 5.3 miles. Sometimes I'll take 500 South to I-80 to Redwood Rd to North Temple. It's a little faster but a longer distance at 7.1 miles.

Biking: I bike to work sometimes and it takes abt. 30 minutes using various parallel routes.

Transit: I can either take the 2 or the 220 bus or the red line then hop off and take the green line all the way down North Temple to 1940 West and then 2200 West flex shuttle (or walking). Best case scenario is about 40-45 minutes on the way there and 45-50 on the way back because of how transfers line up. Sometimes, because of missed transfers, commute can take an hour.

The "black" line (between U of U and airport) would help. Would be easier and a little faster, particularly on the way back. Also would eliminate the uncertainties of the transfer.

[jubguy3]

I live south of the University in Harvard Yale around 1300 E, and I work downtown. I can either take the 220 to the stadium and then the red line to Courthouse, and the green or blue to city center. I can also take the 220 directly to City center, but it's actually slower. The yellow line needs to be immediately constructed - not only would it increase frequency downtown to 5 minutes, and along the airport and University lines to 10 minutes, but would eliminate most transfers made at the courthouse station. A UTA statement earlier said it would require only $3m in signal upgrades and maintenance to the old part of the Delta - University trax turn at 400 S. Main... which is already in use for the marathon train routing. I don't know what this nonsense is about constructing trax down the west side of 400S - not only is there little demand that isn't covered by the 2/2X bus and future streetcar, but it would have a connection to the North Temple frontrunner station without new construction. In my ideal world, UTA phases out the Salt Lake Central station​ and relocates bus service to the North Temple frontrunner station, which in my mind is located much more conveniently and in a much better neighborhood. UTA could then turn Main St. into a transit mall considering that it has only one driveway between 400S and S. Temple. For some reason they want to turn 400W into a transit mall for the davis-weber bus corridor, which makes no sense to me. They could use North Temple to access the N. Temple station using the existing bus lanes, if it weren't for LDS, Inc. closing down Main Street between South and North Temple.

Anyways, my commute takes 45 minutes by train, or 10 minutes by driving.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by airhero

Driving: From door to desk 15-20 minutes. I usually go down North Temple which is 5.3 miles.

(5.3 miles)/(17.5 minutes)*(60 minutes/hour)=18.2 mph average speed

Biking: I bike to work sometimes and it takes abt. 30 minutes using various parallel routes.

(5.3 miles)/(30 minutes)*(60 minutes/hour)=10.6 mph average speed

Transit: I can either take the 2 or the 220 bus or the red line then hop off and take the green line all the way down North Temple to 1940 West and then 2200 West flex shuttle (or walking). Best case scenario is about 40-45 minutes on the way there and 45-50 on the way back because of how transfers line up. Sometimes, because of missed transfers, commute can take an hour.

(5.3 miles)/(45 minutes)*(60 minutes/hour)=7.1 mph average speed

This is very good information. Thanks, Airhero.
I'll spend a minute or two some time in the future to make a table of our accumulated data (average speeds, not origins/destinations - and without usernames attached) so that the information is more visible. But until I do, I'm struck by how slow transit is - so slow that people on bikes can regularly beat it some cases. I'm also impressed that cars seem to be generally unaffected by traffic - perhaps we just haven't had enough responses for people who fight traffic jams on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by jubguy3

The yellow BLACK line needs to be immediately constructed [...]
Anyways, my commute takes 45 minutes by train, or 10 minutes by driving.

This is another thing that surprised me - how useful the University-Airport line will be if it finally (finally!!!) begins service. We all knew that the transfer at Courthouse was terrible, but I wasn't aware how many people are already traveling in that direction who would already benefit from better service.

[DCRes]

Originally Posted by airhero

I live east of downtown and work on 2200 West near the airport.

Biking: I bike to work sometimes and it takes abt. 30 minutes using various parallel routes.

That sounds like a nice ride TO work, but not so much of a nice ride going home FROM work

[asies1981]

Biskupksi has nominated Dabakis for the UTA board position. I'm seeing a trend here, the mayor sure loves to appoint reps from the legislature.

[San Diego-Honolulu]

Double decker freeways might be coming to the Salt Lake City area on the 15. When I lived in San Antonio a few years ago, double decker freeways were everywhere and it allowed the freeways to essentially have four or fives lanes per direction depending on where you were driving in the San Antonio area. There is more of a "drive first" culture in the Salt Lake City area but more people seriously need to use mass transit in the metro area. When I was there not too long ago we were driving on the 15 and some parts were terrible with traffic, and some of it had to do with the reckless and crazy Utah drivers too. Like I've said before, the Salt Lake City area is slowly becoming more like the Los Angeles area, but obviously on a smaller scale.

It

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86568...ng-could-prevent-that-lawmaker-says.html

[DanskeUtahn]

Well if the double decker freeway does happen then they should build in heavy rail into the freeway along with stations and parking garages at every exit.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Hatman

This is another thing that surprised me - how useful the University-Airport line will be if it finally (finally!!!) begins service. We all knew that the transfer at Courthouse was terrible, but I wasn't aware how many people are already traveling in that direction who would already benefit from better service.

My biggest gripe so far is that the track ALREADY exists. UTA just has to do signal upgrades for track that was literally in use up until 2011 and still sees occasional usage for the marathon train routing... but apparently its going to cost them $3m dollars. Adding the yellow line would significantly improve crosstown service. It would also make sense to be a candidate for increased nighttime hours of operation because it exists solely within SLC and doesn't meander into suburbs where nighttime service would be of little use. Maybe UTA could actually provide nighttime service to the airport and downtown (as well as the university) with the yellow line.

The fact that Central Pointe and 9th south have a frequency of service of 5 minutes, yet some of the busiest stations in the system only see 15 minute service, shows how ignorant TRAX is to East-West ridership patterns in SLC...

[jubguy3]

The more I use transit in downtown SLC, do I think that UTA needs to slowly phase out Salt Lake Central in favor of a North Temple intermodal station.

1. North Temple TRAX is only 1 stop away from the 1999 downtown system, whereas Salt Lake Central is 3 stops away and makes frequent turns to get there

2. Salt Lake Central is an ugly, poorly designed station that ends up being a hotbed for crime and urban blight

3. I'm not scared that I'm going to be raped while I'm at North Temple

4. If UTA reorganizes bus service in SLC along North Temple and Main Street, they can effectively create a spine of service as well as a transit mall along Main Street. Main Street is an especially good candidate for a transit mall because it already sees high transit usage and high pedestrian traffic but only has one driveway between South Temple and 400 S

5. From my experience, the North Temple Station is already busier in the mornings than Salt Lake Central - every time I get on or off at North Temple around 7-8 in the morning, the trax platform is packed, and I see more people getting off at North Temple rather than SL Central

6. Many routes actually have to take a roundabout route to get to Salt Lake Central... in addition to being farther west than North Temple, many routes like 200 and 209 use North Temple but then turn back south on 300 W towards SL Central rather than using the North Temple station

7. North Temple Street already sees a very high level of bus service, with 6, 200, 209, 307, 320, 451, 453, 454, 455, 460, 462, 470, 471, 472, 473, 500, and 516 using the dedicated bus lanes on North Temple

8. Many of these routes actually continue on State Street, but if the Temple were to reopen main street to bus service only, could use a dedicated transit mall on Main street rather than having to use State Street

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

yellow

After being friendly with a lot of TRAX supervisors and planners, I've got a pretty good idea of why the Black/Yellow/Airport-University line isn't running yet. LINK

As for Salt Lake Central, I totally agree that it is a very disappointing place to hang out at. And it's even harder to get to than North Temple. But what I like about it is potential - it's like a blank slate. UTA and Salt Lake City used to have grand plans for a new station building there, something that would be fitting for the name of 'Salt Lake Central'. I think that one day that will happen. I'm hoping for something like the Anaheim ARTIC:





Can you imagine how cool that would be, to get off a train into Salt Lake City, go up an escalator from the platform, and then into a great big space like that - except instead of palm trees and endless grey sky out the enormous windows, you see the Wasatch Mountains?

NOTE: This Anaheim station was justified with a projected traffic of 10,000 passengers per day. Also, for how impressive the facilities are, the station itself has only 2 tracks. FrontRunner already carries 16,000+ passengers per day, and that is expected to double one UTA adds a second track and electric trainsets. At that point FrontRunner will be carrying at least 3x more than then number Anaheim officials felt justified a fancy new station. Also, Salt Lake Central will have at least 6 tracks (2 for FrontRunner, 2 for Amtrak, and 2 for TRAX). So it isn't unreasonable to think we can build one too. /NOTE

And with respect to where it fits in with the system, Salt Lake Central is at the end of a branch line now, kind of off on its own. Not because there is no space around it, but because nothing is built in that space. If you add two more lines from Salt Lake Central - 4th south to the University Line, and another down to at least 7th south, then SLC becomes the center of a web of lines branching into downtown. North Temple may always undercut it for the travelers from the north, but it will always be the main station for traffic from the south.

So yes, it is depressing now, but there is a lot of potential.

[Makid]

After reading the following:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86568...ng-could-prevent-that-lawmaker-says.html

as well as the Tribune take on it:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/5351301-155/transit-will-play-a-vital-role

It does look like someone looked at my suggestions (on previous page).

The reason I do suspect this is because the topic of decking I-15 was mostly tongue in cheek as a way to get to the more nitty gritty but not discussed part of the meeting:

From the DNews:

He said planning now for the predicted doubling of the state's population by 2050 can save money. But Niederhauser said that may require the state to take over planning functions now left to local governments.

Buxton, a member of the Legislature's new Transportation Governance and Funding Task Force, also said urban sprawl can't be allowed to continue and that may mean new state laws spelling out how land can be used.

The Tribune focused primarily on UTA and transit:

Niederhauser said public officials have a big job ahead to convince the public that more transit is needed to handle growth.

"In order for these changes to be made, people have to accept those. I can advocate for those all day long, but if people in my district don't believe in them, then they are going to elect somebody else," he said. "I believe this is an educational issue."

This looks like the State is possibly going to to look into Minimum Density Requirements.

It also looks like they are thinking about implementing a sales tax increase for transit and possibly transportation but one that may be smaller but increase over time. This could also include an adjustment to the Gas Tax:

From the DNews:

The Senate leader said government already faces a shortfall in tax revenues to accommodate growth.

"I can tell you right now the tax infrastructure and revenue that we have today is not sufficient to meet the demands of our growth. It just is not there," Niederhauser said, calling for "some smart increases incrementally" rather than a big tax hike.

From the Tribune:

Senate President Wayne Niederhauser, R-Sandy, said, "I tell you right now the tax infrastructure and revenue we have today is not sufficient to meet the demands of our growth. It just is not there — in education, in transportation, in transit."

He said incremental tax increases that will be required would be smaller if they start sooner. But support for transit tax hikes may be complicated, he said, because most lawmakers and the public do not realize reforms that UTA has made in recent years.

From these, that will potentially cover the following:

Because the need for the 45%+ transit sales tax increase is close to dire, Salt Lake, Davis, Weber and Utah Counties will have their transit sales tax increased to a full 1% from where it is currently.

There will be an adjustment to the "Prop 1" language that will allow 25% of the increase to go to Counties and 70% to go to Cities (still capped though at .25% sales tax increase) to go to their desired projects. This can be Transit, Roads or a combination.

Minimum Density Requirements will be made for parcels within 1/4 mile of Rail and BRT stations and 1/8 to 1/4 mile from Regular to Enhanced bus stops. The new requirements will only be applied to new projects (not currently approved or under construction). Current uses are grandfathered in.

An adjustment to the existing Gas Tax formula so that it increases a bit faster than inflation to gradually increase the spending power of the funds.

The next section would be for the Merging of UDoT and UTA:

DNews:

Senate Minority Whip Karen Mayne, D-West Valley City and a former UTA board member, said, "Perception is reality and that's what we have with UTA. It's what people think about you, maybe not the reality."

Mayne said after the panel the state should have more control over UTA. What form that takes, she said, will be up to the Legislature. The task force is expected to make a recommendation about whether UTA should become a state agency.

This could lead to my suggested:

split UDoT into 2 groups (Wasatch Front and Elsewhere). The Wasatch Front division of UDoT will be merged with UTA and be titled something like Wasatch Front Transportation Association (WFTA). The Elsewhere group will keep the UDoT moniker. Funding for WFTA will be from 100% of the existing Transit Sales Taxes and 50% of the Gas Tax collected in the area. UDoT will be funded by 100% of the Gas Tax outside of the WFTA and 50% from within.

So it does appear that they listen to suggestions. The more that people recommend similar items, the more likely and sooner, I think they are to get pushed forward.

I will be sending my suggestions to other State Legislators and I do recommend anyone else that has thoughts also do the same, whether they are similar to mine or in support of double decking I-15.