Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Assuming your assumptions are correct (which I'm not sold on) you are forgetting that some trips will actually be shorter with the viaducts torn down. I know for me having Georgia street connect directly with Pacific would provide a more direct route than what I have to do now.

It may not balance out the added delay you are talking about. I just want to be clear it's not a clear negative for vehicle commuters. The post viaducts road network favours connectivity and redundancy vs pure speed.

And you'll be competing with a lot more motorists for space on that new connection since the viaducts won't be an option. It's a lose-lose for motorists and cyclists who use the viaducts now, and there will be many more pedestrian-vehicle interfaces on the at grade roads.

[vanman]

Originally Posted by whatnext

If you want to help people in the DTES, take the ballooning $100-200 million budget for viaduct removal and do something with it that actually helps with the issues there.

I definitely agree with this. As a Vancouver taxpayer I cannot stomach the escalating cost of removing perfectly good infrastructure when there are clearly much more important issues at hand to deal with.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by vanman

I definitely agree with this. As a Vancouver taxpayer I cannot stomach the escalating cost of removing perfectly good infrastructure when there are clearly much more important issues at hand to deal with.

Totally agreed!

Also, think about back in the days the minds that came together to design the viaducts, the money of tax payers going into paying for them to be built, with the residents expecting them to last, the countless hours saved by moving vehicles quickly and efficiently in and out of the downtown core, etc. If our forebears were to know that the viaducts would be torn down way before their lifespan is up, do you think they would think their investments were justified? It's easy for the new generation to dismiss something so easily and destroy anything with a stroke of the pen, but think about the amount of blood and sweat people of a previous generation poured into getting something built, and its really shameful that people today fail to cherish their efforts. Truly Shameful.

And all the spending just to boost the collective ego of the the current City council, without any improvement whatsoever in sight.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by whatnext

LOL, tearing down the viaducts will do Zero Good for the misery in the DTES. It will however be great for Concord, and we all know where Vision's bread is buttered.

If you want to help people in the DTES, take the ballooning $100-200 million budget for viaduct removal and do something with it that actually helps with the issues there.

Haha. You are one fella that I have never been able to figure out. You always seem to rant against Mayor "Moonbeam"/Vision Vancouver councillors and their policies.

Yet, the 2017 BC NDP platform was mostly/co-drafted by Vision Vancouver councillor Geoff Meggs. The BC NDP platform was, for the most part, VV on "steroids". Yet, ya come across as someone that believes the BC NDP is the greatest thing since "sliced bread".

How do ya reconcile your two positions? Am always someone with open ears.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Also, think about back in the days the minds that came together to design the viaducts, the money of tax payers going into paying for them to be built, with the residents expecting them to last, the countless hours saved by moving vehicles quickly and efficiently in and out of the downtown core, etc. If our forebears were to know that the viaducts would be torn down way before their lifespan is up, do you think they would think their investments were justified? It's easy for the new generation to dismiss something so easily and destroy anything with a stroke of the pen, but think about the amount of blood and sweat people of a previous generation poured into getting something built, and its really shameful that people today fail to cherish their efforts.

I'm sorry, do you mean the same tax payers and forbears that, to this day, brag about opposing the freeway project? And continue to cry blue murder about "paving paradise?"

Yes, Vancouver hates cars and roads, and yes, the whole project has the potential to be a disaster, but bringing in the old generation is a very questionable argument. A cursory Museum of Vancouver tour, English teacher rant or even a Google search would show that the whole anti-vehicle movement started with these hippies - they didn't want the viaducts in the first place!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And you'll be competing with a lot more motorists for space on that new connection since the viaducts won't be an option. It's a lose-lose for motorists and cyclists who use the viaducts now, and there will be many more pedestrian-vehicle interfaces on the at grade roads.

The design team showed their numbers and sims at the open house - assuming they're right, the new grid should be able to handle existing levels of traffic. Not sure about future levels.

I'm more worried about all the pedestrian crossings (Carrall, West Georgia, etc). Even with traffic signals - which weren't in the renders - it's going to be just as bad as Cambie and Broadway; without signals, it's going to be chaos. Not sure if City Hall's heard of these things called overpasses and underpasses.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'm sorry, do you mean the same tax payers and forbears that, to this day, brag about opposing the freeway project?

Sorry, but that's all complete rhetoric. And I state that because I know my complete history behind same.

Firstly, the 1970/1972 completion of viaducts was to replace the existing early 1900's viaduct, which was structurally unsound. Period.

The subsequent Georgia/Dunsmuir viaducts were designed to "potentially" tie into a future eastward connection to Hwy 1. The 1972 finalized designs for the E-W proposed Fwy through the Grandview Cut required extensive changes to the eastward section of the then new 'ducts.

You are just posting tired old early 1970's "Hippie" rhetoric from back in the day.

PS. Do you have a driver's license and/or own a vehicle? Just gotta ask. Don't be afraid to respond to same.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by vanman

I was in Hong Kong last week and noticed how that city treats many of its viaducts.







In my second pic you can see the tubing for the irrigation system that keeps the landscaping lush and green. I don't see why Vancouver can't do something similar with our viaducts for the next 40 plus years until they reach their end of life.

Originally Posted by cornholio

Vancouver can do that. They even had a comprehensive plan for park space and sports facilities under them that would have been a amazing amenity for locals. But instead they prefer to piss away tax payer dollars and hurt locals simply due to ideology of a few what I consider arrogant fools at city hall. The economic and social costs to Vancouver will go on for decades if they manage to destroy them.

Super stuff, the examples. Thanks, cornholio! Total logic. Better get onto this fast. either plan it, or better still, build
something fast that people can admire, appreciate, and which contributes boldly to the "green" element of the city. Plans for the demo are moving in pretty fast, it seems.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Vin

Also, think about back in the days the minds that came together to design the viaducts, the money of tax payers going into paying for them to be built, with the residents expecting them to last, the countless hours saved by moving vehicles quickly and efficiently in and out of the downtown core, etc.

The viaducts were designed to integrate into a freeway network that never came. And they were built to span an obstacle (rail yards) that no longer exist.

Priorities change.

I'm really not fond of the idea of tearing down infrastructure that still has a lot of remaining useful life. And as a taxpayer I'm upset at the dollars being spent, especially when this was initially sold as paying for itself.

But the reality is that if those viaducts were at end-of-life today they would be torn down and not replaced. There's no true need for them in the current context of the city. Two or three blocks of expressway just wouldn't give enough benefit to be worth replacing them.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Haha. You are one fella that I have never been able to figure out. You always seem to rant against Mayor "Moonbeam"/Vision Vancouver councillors and their policies.

Yet, the 2017 BC NDP platform was mostly/co-drafted by Vision Vancouver councillor Geoff Meggs. The BC NDP platform was, for the most part, VV on "steroids". Yet, ya come across as someone that believes the BC NDP is the greatest thing since "sliced bread".

How do ya reconcile your two positions? Am always someone with open ears.

Its not that I think the BC NDP are the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather that Christy and the BC Liberals are the worst thing since turd cookies.

Pay for play fundraisers when she draws a salary from them? No thanks. Completely funded by corporate interests? I'll pass. I'm basically against any political organization that has sold its soul to developers. That means the BC Libs and Vision Vancouver. Vision has just been better at hoodwinking the bikeriding simpletons that somehow they're this touchy feelly party of the people. They're not, and that makes them even bigger hypocrites than the BC Libs. Both parties have presided over the wrecking of Vancouver as a place for ordinary Canadians, preferring instead to cater to the desires of offshore money.

I hope that the Civic Greens get it together enough in 2018 to kick Gregor to the curb, but I'm not that optimistic.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

You are just posting tired old early 1970's "Hippie" rhetoric from back in the day.

Context is key - in this case, the post I was replying to. That "tired old early 1970's hippie rhetoric" comes from practically anybody belonging to that generation... and the wishes of that generation are being invoked in said post to keep the viaducts .

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

PS. Do you have a driver's license and/or own a vehicle? Just gotta ask.

One license, one Car2Go membership. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Don't be afraid to respond to same.

... No idea what this means.

[rxp]

my 2 cents... there is no point debating the merits of something that is actually going to happen, esp when there is little that can be done at this point...

so when does construction begin? they were suggesting Jan 1, 2018 as the estimated/planned start date back when this went to council in 2015.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by rxp

so when does construction begin? they were suggesting Jan 1, 2018 as the estimated/planned start date back when this went to council in 2015.

They're scheduled to submit the final draft to City Council by fall/winter this year. Based on how fast most governments work, I'd guess summer 2018 at the earliest.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The viaducts were designed to integrate into a freeway network that never came. And they were built to span an obstacle (rail yards) that no longer exist.

Priorities change.

I'm really not fond of the idea of tearing down infrastructure that still has a lot of remaining useful life. And as a taxpayer I'm upset at the dollars being spent, especially when this was initially sold as paying for itself.

But the reality is that if those viaducts were at end-of-life today they would be torn down and not replaced. There's no true need for them in the current context of the city. Two or three blocks of expressway just wouldn't give enough benefit to be worth replacing them.

With or without the freeway (supposed to be at Prior Street/Strathcona), the viaducts are still being used efficiently to bring traffic in and out of downtown, and that is a fact. Removing them will create more congestions on ground-level streets. With many downtown streets facing congestions these days, no one ever questions why the streets surrounding the viaducts are never congested (not including special events, especially at the stadiums). The freeway excuse is just red-herring to get the viaducts removed.

[s211]

Originally Posted by rxp

my 2 cents... there is no point debating the merits of something that is actually going to happen, esp when there is little that can be done at this point...

If anything, being able to speak one's mind whenever one chooses is an important way to remind offenders that they can try to sweep dirt under the carpet, but that you will always remember, and not forget. Otherwise, the offenders will delude themselves that they have won you over, or worn you down into submission.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by s211

If anything, being able to speak one's mind whenever one chooses is an important way to remind offenders that they can try to sweep dirt under the carpet, but that you will always remember, and not forget. Otherwise, the offenders will delude themselves that they have won you over, or worn you down into submission.

The rocks may protest against being ground into dust, but the glacier simply doesn't care...

[Vin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The rocks may protest against being ground into dust, but the glacier simply doesn't care...

So we cause global warming to melt the glacier.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

So we cause global warming to melt the glacier.

So (following the metaphor) only divine intervention can stop the demolition at this point... actually, that sounds about right.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So (following the metaphor) only divine intervention can stop the demolition at this point... actually, that sounds about right.

Kinda more complex than that. I have posted said matters (with evidence) herein, in this thread, over the past few years... but kinda apropos again as said evidence seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

1. Back circa 1999, the CoV Engineering Dept. explained that any Translink designation for then any Van City arterial "would have major consequences" (said CoV memo contained much earlier in this thread);

2. Back circa 1999, Translink designated:

a) Georgia Viaduct as part of MRN;
b) Both Georgia and Dunsmuir Viaducts as part of regional "Major Trucking Network".

Numerous other Metro Van municipalities, since 1999, have attempted to have said Translink designations removed after the fact. To no avail. Moreover Translink principle on any such MRN/MTN designation removal, is that successor be superior.

In this instance, according to Devan Fitch, City of Vancouver manager of project delivery and engineering services... "We would take 11 lanes of traffic and replace it with six."

Certainly doesn't meet that Translink "test" based upon other Translink written precedents based upon other similiar muni requests. Gets even more interesting. Translink MUST prepare a report on any MRN/MTR removal request by any muni. Said report must include all stakeholders re: viaducts incl., without limitation,:

1. BC MoTI:
2. Port of Metro Van;
3. BC Trucking Association;

No such Translink report has ever been prepared or requested. Completely bizarre in this entire matter. 'Cause nothing is certain until said Translink report has been prepared. BTW, based upon precedent, that outcome can readily be pre-determined. No brainer.

The demolition cost of the viaducts has now escalated to ~$200 million. Brutal. Again. Waaaaaay out in left field. We have Mayor Robertson now begging both the feds and province to commit funding for their removal. Just ain't gonna happen.

Moreover, in order for the CoV to commit CAPEX to their removal... they will require a capital borrowing referendum at the next muni election.

This entire matter has been D.O.A. since day one - have stated it numerous times herein with obvious reasons/requirements thereto extant. Yet, many here are still blind to the "tests" required to make it happen.

Translink has final say. It is what it is.

[logan5]

Ignorance is bliss. They're coming down.