Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[warpus]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

A lot of Londoners seem to be very anti-progress and I can't understand why. Are they so lacking in intelligence that they cannot see the positive aspects of things like BRT?

London is a car town. It's really spread out and the transit sucks so most people drive. A lot of people don't know of any other way to get around the city other than driving. They see how bad traffic can get and they think that dedicated bus lanes are going to make things worse for drivers and impact their lifestyle as a result. They see BRT as a "war on the car" instead of a way to improve the city.

Moreover a decent amount of those people who drive are middle class or better. They feel that a city bus is for "poor people" and students. They don't think they would ever make use of public transit, so they don't consider BRT as a benefit to them personally, so they are against it.

I also think that all the construction and traffic issues stemming from construction over the last 5-10 years have really made people cynical. Some parts of town have just been horrible for that, and some of the construction has lasted quite a while. People look at this BRT proposal and see all the construction it's going to lead to and they are immediatelly against it, due to their recent experiences with construction in this city - traffic jams, a much longer commute, more stress, etc.

A lot of people I think just honestly think that BRT is a horrible idea. They think that the city staff and council are a bunch of dumbasses who came up with this BRT thing out of nowhere as a "Simpsons monorail" type of thing that's just not going to work. They see it as a waste of money that is being thrown at a method of transportation they view as inferior.

I would guess those are the main reasons. Thankfully the number of people for Rapid Transit is double that of those against it. The majority of people flat out against RT are over 50. Throw in some irate business owners and there you have your Anti-RT base, from which they have been trying to expand by spreading misinformation and propaganda.

By the way I have been lurking on these forums for years. I usually don't post, but I have been quite passionate about this whole RT thing, so I felt like finally it was time to chime in. It saddens me just how misinformed people are. The city has been releasing detailed blueprints and other information related to RT plans over the last couple years. I have been looking at this stuff religiously as it has been coming out. The basic plan has been available for public viewing for quite a while, and all the route analysis and comparisons have been out there as well. Yet most of the people against RT have never even looked at any of that until maybe recently, when all this downshift business started, and I would guess most of them haven't done so even now. If I was a business owner on one of the affected routes I would have been planning for RT as soon as the first plans came out, so that I would be ready when construction started. Yet most business owners who are now against RT didn't seem to even know it was happening. Doesn't a good business owner stay informed on what the city is up to, as to better plan for the future, and modify the business plans if necessary? I'm just a random citizen and I have been looking at these plans for years and I knew exactly what was coming.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

Sad, but true.

I've lived in London for the last 27 years and find it to be a grey, concrete, and rather boring place, to say nothing of generally mediocre. I've learned to tolerate it because Toronto is too big, too noisy and too bloody expensive to live in.

I wonder if some people in London (especially older people) are concerned that it might get too big and it will then start reminding them too much of Toronto. They might prefer it to always be a small and somewhat backwater burg.

[Dupcheck]

All said, i hope we do something about the root cause problem: train tracks at Richmond/Oxford. I heard the city is in talks with CN rail? Anyone has any news of this?

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by Blitz

I wonder if some people in London (especially older people) are concerned that it might get too big and it will then start reminding them too much of Toronto. They might prefer it to always be a small and somewhat backwater burg.

You do have a point. I doubt that London would ever get 'too big', for one simple reason.

The city is pursuing a policy of promoting and requiring densification and infill. That is, building up, rather than out. The purpose of this policy is to contain urban sprawl rather than encourage it.

A lot of people wouldn't consider this element of the equation, but increasing population density makes BRT work better because BRT lines wouldn't need to be extended to ever more far-flung areas, and increased population density tends to generate the ridership that would be needed to support BRT and one day, light rail.

There are people who think the people who work in city hall are idiots and that the BRT plan represents the height of stupidity, but after reviewing the BRT documents, I saw evidence of very careful consideration and planning, and doing the equivalent of thinking two or three moves ahead on the chess board. BRT isn't just a gimmick, a one-trick pony, it's actually a vital part of London's future growth

You can't stop London from getting bigger, anyway. You can't stop any municipality from getting bigger unless you enact and enforce policies that deliberately drive people away. Cities that are even modestly attractive to live in are going to attract people.

People will still want to live in London because it offers them a couple of things:

1) There's no need to settle in some far-flung suburb in the Greater Toronto Area and commute two-plus hours each day just to be able to afford a house in the region or find rental accommodation that takes more than half your net pay and forces you to live in a cockroach-infested broom closet;

2) House prices and rents here are still somewhat close to being sane.

[jammer139]

So they want to talk to Feds about getting CP to move their main line. This will eliminate the need for the full underpasses at Adelaide and Richmond. Get rid of the truck can opener at Talbot and the tressel bridge over the Thames at Oxford.


http://www.lfpress.com/2017/05/24/london-councillor-demands-rail-line-action

Folks need to stop dreaming and start dealing with the reality that major infrastructure projects will cost alot of money.

Richmond needs expropriation. What would it cost to buy the Shelby building and tear it down? Or the buildings on the west side of Richmond?

Adelaide is ready to go with plenty of land for a 6 lane plus sidewalk underpass.
Get the shovels in the ground at Adelaide in the next 12 months before the next Municipal election next year and maybe this council will have accomplished something.

[Dupcheck]

CP Rail is the NIMBY now isn't it?

They do not want to change, they do not care about improvements to the city.
If you hate NIMBY's so much why not do something about the CP rail the biggest of all NIMBY's?

You chicken little's are too scared of big corporations, therefore pick on the little guys (AKA neighborhood NIMBY's).

[haljackey]

Large article on the Free Press today regarding the tunnel kill
http://www.lfpress.com/2017/06/11/bus-ra...-which-londons-brt-tunnel-plan-collapsed

In a nutshell the tunnel went from 90 million
to 220 million
to potentially 300 million+

Cost for the tunnel would be almost as much as the rest of the system, and would be 'expected' to be covered by the province / feds. The city thinks some of that cost would be 'shifted' back to them which is one reason why they backed out.

That damm railroad!

[Dupcheck]

We have to do something about relocating the CN/CP tracks at Richmond & Oxford, Adelaide, etc...

As these tracks get older we could have a big problem on our hands not just a delay to the traffic, but also as a safety concern to the public when these trains transport dangerous goods several times per day. As the city adds more density safety becomes paramount.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-ontario-trains-rail-safety-lac-megantic-1.4150032

[haljackey]

London could be Lac-Mégantic x10!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster

[Dupcheck]

The Railway is a bigger problem than we think! They might have been the first ones here, but they were not always transporting dangerous goods back in the day.

They should not be allowed to do what they want. If they choose to transport dangerous goods that can endanger the population in the city, they can do so outside of city boundaries.

They need to relocate outside of our downtown, they make our city unsafe!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lon...s-goods-trains-red-zone-safety-1.4156550


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/railroads-london-ontario-dangerous-goods-trains-1.4154091

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by K85

don't think it's bad, I love London to death, it's just full of morons, run by morons, and the people complaining about the unbelievable opportunity we had are morons.

The city needs to stop letting people and business push them around and just do it. It makes me mad that anything good that comes to this city is ruined by the citizens and then council sucks up to them. They need to ignore all the complaints and just do things, whether people like it or not.

[jammer139]

Another example of typical CBC reporting.

Next sensational story headline: Water is Wet and Fire is Hot!

How stupid and ignorant must people be to be surprised that rail cars rolling by contain every kind of material made by mankind.

Good Grief!

They have been rolling thru this city and country since the mid 1800's.

If your looking for someone to blame look at your city planners and leaders. The railways are not at fault.

The city planners had amble time to think about transportation and road corridors since the 1800's but happily ignored that vital part of their jobs. Land use planning and zoning we have today sits on top of a rotting pile of mistakes that were made in the past.

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

The Railway is a bigger problem than we think! They might have been the first ones here, but they were not always transporting dangerous goods back in the day.

They should not be allowed to do what they want. If they choose to transport dangerous goods that can endanger the population in the city, they can do so outside of city boundaries.

They need to relocate outside of our downtown, they make our city unsafe!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lon...s-goods-trains-red-zone-safety-1.4156550


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/railroads-london-ontario-dangerous-goods-trains-1.4154091

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Another example of typical CBC reporting.

Next sensational story headline: Water is Wet and Fire is Hot!

How stupid and ignorant must people be to be surprised that rail cars rolling by contain every kind of material made by mankind.

Good Grief!

They have been rolling thru this city and country since the mid 1800's.

If your looking for someone to blame look at your city planners and leaders. The railways are not at fault.

The city planners had amble time to think about transportation and road corridors since the 1800's but happily ignored that vital part of their jobs. Land use planning and zoning we have today sits on top of a rotting pile of mistakes that were made in the past.

Go bark at a moving car or something, you seem to have some anger issues.

[jammer139]

It now leaks out that the tunnel estimates that exploded in cost were going to include a $65M underground bus stop at Oxford and Richmond.

Thankfully the ill conceived tunnel idea was killed.

That kind of money would cover the cost of two new underpasses at Adelaide and Talbot St under the CP tracks. Dramatically improving transportation and transit.

Talbot St is in need of a rebuild and widening given the number of proposed new developments. And it provides another major north-south route alternative from Richmond St.

[ericlewis91]

Originally Posted by jammer139

It now leaks out that the tunnel estimates that exploded in cost were going to include a $65M underground bus stop at Oxford and Richmond.

Thankfully the ill conceived tunnel idea was killed.

That kind of money would cover the cost of two new underpasses at Adelaide and Talbot St under the CP tracks. Dramatically improving transportation and transit.

Talbot St is in need of a rebuild and widening given the number of proposed new developments. And it provides another major north-south route alternative from Richmond St.

It would also be nice if Richmond street banned any parking or stopping.

[warpus]

Originally Posted by jammer139

It now leaks out that the tunnel estimates that exploded in cost were going to include a $65M underground bus stop at Oxford and Richmond.

Where are you getting this from? This isn't a leak, this underground stop was always in the plans, for as long as the tunnel was presented as an option to the public anyway.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by ericlewis91

It would also be nice if Richmond street banned any parking or stopping.

well with BRT being at grade, and leaves only one lane per direction for traffic, there won't be any parking or stopping permitted, at least on Richmond Row.

The tunnel (if done) would have probably left some time permitted parking on Richmond, but now that's its gone, businesses won't have any parking left.

[Dupcheck]

Meanwhile in China:

The hoax RT scheme goes down.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-40492697

[GreatTallNorth2]

The more I travel, the more frustrated I am with London as a city. Why on earth can we not have light rail, the transit tunnel or even a freeway for that matter? Why is every decision based on what is the cheapest option? Why not for once: what is the best option? We have never and are not currently building for the future. Sorry for the rant, but if the gov't can give K/W and Hamilton money for light rail and freeways, why are we so shy to ask for the same?

[MolsonExport]

despite being a collection of (bickering) cities, KWC has all the goodies and London, none.
Freeways? KWC 1 London 0
LRT? KWC 1 London 0

heck the University of Waterloo is threatening Western...the former was once a satellite campus of the latter.

London aims for mediocrity, it seems.