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  #3881  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post
The West Village is obviously the best site (transit and vehicular access wise now that the Crowchild changes are moving forward), but you could likely make the Victoria Park bus barn site work with alterations to adjacent roads. A new stadium needs to be closer to downtown and it needs to be multi-purpose (in some way) in order to drive traffic to the facility year round.

Redevelop McMahon as mixed-use office/retail/residential and build an appropriate sized outdoor field for the Dinos on campus. Easy!
The reason I see West Village as a non starter is this whole Creosote thing is going to drag on for years, and on top of that all the infrastructure realignment needs to be done as well. If the Flames want to wait another 15 years, then West Village may work out. Don't think they want to wait that long...
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  #3882  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the Blackfoot suggestion is crazy talk. I mean really! I get the idea stadi aren't going to have 365 day usage, but you would never get the team behind an isolated location like that. There is nothing around it. I think it would be a tough sell and in the long run we would end up in a similar situation as Ottawa, where the isolation of the arena demands a better location.
Difference between this in Ottawa is like comparing apples to oranges. Ottawa is outside of the city itself, and accessibility is difficult since there isn't any transit, limited roads, and is far removed from any urban hot spots areas. Not to mention, it's a hockey arena so gets more usages throughout the year. So for football stadiums, the location of Ottawa's arena actually isn't that bad based since NFL teams have built them out far before. Since it's games would only be occurring once a week/twice a month over a several month period, lack of accessibility isn't as big of a concern.

My proposed location is within the city, in fact less than a kilometer removed from Stampede Park, 1.2km from Inglewood, and 1.5km from downtown in general. There will be an LRT stop on the plot of land built within the next few years (granted greenline starts construction), and has a road network that allows vehicle access from all directions. And ultimately, the area is intended to become a TOD with mixed-used development, along with 11 st, and Inglewood isn't too far away either. (Mission/4 street isn't too far removed either via car)

I don't see how they're similar at all aside from the current state of underdevelopment. But my proposal at least has the intended potential for it.

I think that CSEC will have to - if they aren't already - consider building a new stadium outside of McMahon lands if they aren't interested in renovations. Because I don't believe the university is keen on the land being taken up by a stadium, and if there's a way they can rid of McMahon they'll be all for it. The only options I believe CSEC has is to convince the city to build the fieldhouse to football stadium specs, reno McMahon, or build a new stadium elsewhere in the city.
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  #3883  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 5:47 PM
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Yes, the Harvard-educated, former McKinsey consultant, Mayor of a city with 1.3M people, tasked with overseeing an operating budget of $2B is a financial neophyte.

Care to list your financial expertise credentials?

I guess I'm an idiot, I only have a CFA and a finance undergrad. Does the mayor's experience in non-profit marketing and general business B.Comm trump that? His Harvard degree has nothing to do with finance and HKS is one of the easiest graduate schools to get into there.

I voted for the guy twice based on his background and promises of fiscal prudence but he has failed to execute time and time again. I certainly thought that mayor would behave in a fiscally responsible manner and judge projects based on long term financial consideration but he's shown himself to be just another politician.

The last straw for me was his stunningly ignorant defense of defined benefit pensions for public sector. The world is moving away from DB pensions to DC and Calgary's pension contributions have doubled in the last decade the the point that we have the highest pension expense (as a % of operating) of any city in Canada outside basketcase Quebec. It's probably the clearest example of him being out of touch with modern financial theory and disappointing to those of us who voted for him based on his business background.

His analysis of the proposed arena/stadium project is another case of his tendencies toward populism. The report on Calgary Next prepared by administration was laughably bad yet he cited it as a reason for his disapproval of the project. By punting the McMahon replacement down the road we will lose the opportunity to gain economies of scale by combining projects that are indeed necessary in the short term future. This will result in a greater cost to the taxpayer overall if you consider time adjusted costs over the total life-cycle of the facilities (ie. replacement of McMahon after cosmetic renovations buy an additional 20 years of life). What's worse, is we will be left with a mediocre stadium that can't host concerts, MLS, World Cup, national team rugby, etc., and it poorly located for those of us who work downtown (ie. the target market for Stampeders tickets).

Apologies for the off-topic tangent, but it irritates me that people still think that fiscal responsibility is a priority for Nenshi. If you wish to discuss further, we can move to the municipal politics thread and I'd be happy to - I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these things.
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  #3884  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
The reason I see West Village as a non starter is this whole Creosote thing is going to drag on for years, and on top of that all the infrastructure realignment needs to be done as well. If the Flames want to wait another 15 years, then West Village may work out. Don't think they want to wait that long...
Creosote remediation should be considered a sunk cost - it's going to be borne by taxpayers regardless of the ultimate destiny of the site (unless they can squeeze come cash out of Domtar, which they probably cannot).

From what I've heard from consultants familiar with the project, 6-8 years would be reasonable for the WV - this would be amenable to the Flames and would dovetail nicely with both the build-out of the East Village and the 2026 Olympic bid.
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  #3885  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the Blackfoot suggestion is crazy talk. I mean really! I get the idea stadi aren't going to have 365 day usage, but you would never get the team behind an isolated location like that. There is nothing around it. I think it would be a tough sell and in the long run we would end up in a similar situation as Ottawa, where the isolation of the arena demands a better location.
Agreed. How is it any better than the current location? Why would you build there from scratch when you can rebuild where McMahon is? I don't see any logic to it.
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  #3886  
Old Posted May 9, 2017, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post
Creosote remediation should be considered a sunk cost - it's going to be borne by taxpayers regardless of the ultimate destiny of the site (unless they can squeeze come cash out of Domtar, which they probably cannot).

From what I've heard from consultants familiar with the project, 6-8 years would be reasonable for the WV - this would be amenable to the Flames and would dovetail nicely with both the build-out of the East Village and the 2026 Olympic bid.
I've heard they may try to sue Domtar, but you're right, it will be the city and Province who have to pay, neither of which has even begun to consider how to pay for it, that's why I say it will probably be a decade at least before they can start on the actual arena.
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  #3887  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post

Apologies for the off-topic tangent, but it irritates me that people still think that fiscal responsibility is a priority for Nenshi. If you wish to discuss further, we can move to the municipal politics thread and I'd be happy to - I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these things.
That's because Twitter and crushing publicly anybody that questions him are his number one priorities.
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  #3888  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 6:47 PM
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Agreed. How is it any better than the current location? Why would you build there from scratch when you can rebuild where McMahon is? I don't see any logic to it.
Does the UofC actually need to spend monies to rebuild their stadium? McMahon more than meets the iniversity's needs.
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  #3889  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 7:02 PM
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Does the UofC actually need to spend monies to rebuild their stadium? McMahon more than meets the iniversity's needs.
Agreed, my point I guess is that we don't need 2 stadiums, and having it adjacent to the UofC makes more sense than in the middle of an industrial area.
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  #3890  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 7:08 PM
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Agreed, my point I guess is that we don't need 2 stadiums, and having it adjacent to the UofC makes more sense than in the middle of an industrial area.
If the Stampeders leave McMahon, the university will look seriously at building a new small stadium on campus.
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  #3891  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 11:04 PM
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crushing publicly anybody that questions him are his number one priorities.
At best, you are an anonymous pot calling a kettle black. At worst, you are a desperate person with ulterior motives and no answers to real policy questions, hiding behind Internet anonymity, and hiding from forums where the Mayor could respond to your attacks.

One thing I'm particularly proud of about Nenshi is that he doesn't back down from bullies, and that he doesn't hide behind henchmen and aliases.
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  #3892  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 11:39 PM
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If the Stampeders leave McMahon, the university will look seriously at building a new small stadium on campus.
How do we know this?
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  #3893  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 11:55 PM
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So I was thinking about the whole funding thing and I remembered that I have never heard much of European/British football (soccer) teams getting much in the way of public funding, for their much larger stadiums. This makes me call BS even more on the claim it's impossible for these things to be privately financed.

I did a bit of googling to back up my claims and I'm right, came across some articles like this one:

Public Money for Private Stadiums?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Public Money for Private Stadiums?
On Wednesday, Minnesota United was officially announced as an expansion side into Major League Soccer. The franchise looks to build a 20,000 seat stadium from scratch; however, the Minnesota Governor stated that Minnesota United and Major League Soccer will not be receiving public money for their private stadium [1]. Minnesota Democrats and Republicans came out in support of the governor’s decision. Ironically, a stadium under construction for the Minnesota Vikings of the NFL is receiving $498 million dollars of taxpayer money [2]. This seems to be the norm in the current sports atmosphere in the United States, as the St. Louis proposed a new stadium that would be financed by $400 million of public money and Wisconsin is planning to give $220 million of public bonds to the Milwaukee Bucks [3]. Why does this happen? The simple justification would be that stadiums provide an economic boom to a region by hosting events throughout the year. Proponents state that stadiums provide some construction jobs, some permeant jobs, and give local businesses a boost in visibility. However, this does not seem to frequently be the case. Robert Baade performed a statistical test to see if a new stadium or sports team was a boon to the local economy, and in many cases, there was no statistical economic difference before and after the stadium was built or the team was formed [4]. It turns out that many fans spend money at or around the stadium that would elsewhere be spent in or around the city.

If that is the case, then why do we still subsidize these stadiums? Perhaps one reason is that the taxpayers value their sports teams. Americans spend a considerable amount of time on Sundays watching the NFL and rooting on their team, and the last thing many of them would want is for their team to be gone. However, this is exactly the case in Saint Louis, where the Rams are threatening to move to Los Angeles unless the city increases public funding to a new stadium. Many other underserved markets, such as Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Oakland, have threatened to move to other cities, placing the ball in the taxpayer’s court. The last thing many Saint Louis Rams fans want is to lose their team, so if that means increased public funding for a new stadium, that is one unfortunate sacrifice that one would make.



The franchise system is a major player for the usage of public funding in the US. Instead of clubs with local roots and history, franchises move around to more desirable locations relatively consistantly. Some examples include the Seattle Supersonics (NBA) moving to Oklahoma City, the original MLS San Jose Earthquakes moving to Houston, the Atlanta Thrashers moving to Winnipeg, and the old LA Rams of the NFL moving to Saint Louis. As seen, this is frequently the case in the North American sports landscape; however, it is not so much the case in Europe. One notable example is when Wimbledon FC moved roughly sixty miles to Milton Keynes in 2003. However, that was a lengthy process and it is believed that the FA would not allow another team to move a significant distance from its current home. For example, when Arsenal left Highbury, their new stadium, Ashburton Grove, was adjacent to its old. Similarly, Tottenham are currently constructing a larger stadium to replace White Hart Lane, and again, it is on an adjacent land parcel. Another similarity that both of these stadiums have is that no public money was used in building them, and that these stadiums were valued at 400 million pounds. Why is public financing so common in the US for stadiums, but not in England? There are no doubt different political climates; however, another reason also rises especially after the MK Dons fiasco. It does not seem feasible that teams will be able to significantly relocate, which means that they cannot credibly threaten to relocate, meaning that the cities do not have any real incentive to fund a new stadium. In the US, a franchise can move after a certain number of league owners approve it, however, the FA does not appear as if they will let any clubs relocate, which ends up saving the tax payers a significant amount of money.
I stand by my position of if the Flames threaten to leave, why the hell should we care? Let them leave, they clearly have no loyalty to us. This piece also calls BS on the claims of economic revitalization, and I'm inclined to believe that rather than Ken King and his mouth breathing supporters.
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  #3894  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 12:07 AM
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Heard it at a campus plan consultation.
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  #3895  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 2:18 AM
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Yes, the Harvard-educated, former McKinsey consultant, Mayor of a city with 1.3M people, tasked with overseeing an operating budget of $2B is a financial neophyte.
After 7 years the Mayor finally realized that debt incurs interest:

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/calgary-herald/20170413/281479276281402
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  #3896  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 1:54 PM
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One thing I'm particularly proud of about Nenshi is that he doesn't back down from bullies, and that he doesn't hide behind henchmen and aliases.
Hard to back down from bullies when Nenshi is the bully in the room.
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  #3897  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 3:43 PM
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Now you see the value of Firepark!
For a strictly CFL stadium, it's fine. For something to host the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies the surrounding area would need to be significantly upgraded. For an NHL hockey arena the location is dreadful.
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  #3898  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 4:12 PM
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After 7 years the Mayor finally realized that debt incurs interest:

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/calgary-herald/20170413/281479276281402
Apparently, math is hard.
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  #3899  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffwhit View Post
For a strictly CFL stadium, it's fine. For something to host the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies the surrounding area would need to be significantly upgraded. For an NHL hockey arena the location is dreadful.
Would at least provide a good view for the TV cameras... lol
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  #3900  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 4:28 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is online now
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
So I was thinking about the whole funding thing and I remembered that I have never heard much of European/British football (soccer) teams getting much in the way of public funding, for their much larger stadiums. This makes me call BS even more on the claim it's impossible for these things to be privately financed.

I did a bit of googling to back up my claims and I'm right, came across some articles like this one:

Public Money for Private Stadiums?



I stand by my position of if the Flames threaten to leave, why the hell should we care? Let them leave, they clearly have no loyalty to us. This piece also calls BS on the claims of economic revitalization, and I'm inclined to believe that rather than Ken King and his mouth breathing supporters.
More basic stadiums in smaller markets, and in all but the largest markets (and even sometimes in them), roundabout state financing! Reminder: Calgary is a relative small city.
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