Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The problem is that thinking regional often doesn't play out in politicians favor from what I can see

And that is why the GVR and CRD need to amalgamate.

[Whalleyboy]

One thing note with Surrey building its light rail L line the port man bridge was built to support future light rail. Skytrain would not be able to go on the bridge without taking lanes out completely. By using light rail it actually give the chance for a future connection between Surrey and Coquitlam since the line could go on from Guildford.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

One thing note with Surrey building its light rail L line the port man bridge was built to support future light rail. Skytrain would not be able to go on the bridge without taking lanes out completely. By using light rail it actually give the chance for a future connection between Surrey and Coquitlam since the line could go on from Guildford.

Sure, but why would it have to be an extension of the Guildford-Newton dogleg? Build the dogleg as a SkyTrain... then a few decades later run the light rail down 152 from Port Coq, west along 82 to Newton Centre, then up the Interurban ROW to Scott Road Station (or something like that).

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

One thing note with Surrey building its light rail L line the port man bridge was built to support future light rail. Skytrain would not be able to go on the bridge without taking lanes out completely. By using light rail it actually give the chance for a future connection between Surrey and Coquitlam since the line could go on from Guildford.

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents Skytrain being used on the Port Mann? Is the weight or width actually that much more?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents Skytrain being used on the Port Mann? Is the weight or width actually that much more?

Yeah, and what allows light rail to go on the bridge? There's no place for it as far as I can see.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents Skytrain being used on the Port Mann? Is the weight or width actually that much more?

I am pretty sure light rail vehicles are significantly heavier then skytrain cars and that's what matters at the end of the day. The weight of the rails, overhead wires, etc. will probably play a much smaller role then the weight of the rolling stock going over it all.

In any case there is no point in building any rail over that bridge in the foreseeable future. Rapid buses work just fine to hop over it.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I am pretty sure light rail vehicles are significantly heavier then skytrain cars and that's what matters at the end of the day. The weight of the rails, overhead wires, etc. will probably play a much smaller role then the weight of the rolling stock going over it all.

In any case there is no point in building any rail over that bridge in the foreseeable future. Rapid buses work just fine to hop over it.

Hate to burst the bubble but LRT, skytrain, and any other form of rail will never use the Port Mann to reach Coquitlam. Johnson Hill is just too steep for rail to safely navigate at any reasonable speed mixing with traffic. Rapid bus works just fine. Skytrain works coming out of Surrey because it is already a dedicated and elevated structure on both sides of the Fraser. It also uses induction motors which don't rely on friction and weight for traction. LRT, imo, will never be nothing more than a pet project within Surrey, if it ever gets built.

[AForce]

haha theres nothing "light" about LRT

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

One thing note with Surrey building its light rail L line the port man bridge was built to support future light rail. Skytrain would not be able to go on the bridge without taking lanes out completely. By using light rail it actually give the chance for a future connection between Surrey and Coquitlam since the line could go on from Guildford.

Why? From north Surrey it's just a quick connection via Columbia and boom you're pretty much in Coquitlam.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by flipper316

Why? From north Surrey it's just a quick connection via Columbia and boom you're pretty much in Coquitlam.

Say some one coming from lets say guildford or newton area they would have to bus then transfer to skytrain then transfer at columbia then transfer again on to the evergreen line. Now say they need to bus some where once in coquitlam they'd have to transfer yet again. Majority of people will stick to driving with that many transfers. I'm just talking this is possible for future use to help get people out of cars

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Hate to burst the bubble but LRT, skytrain, and any other form of rail will never use the Port Mann to reach Coquitlam. Johnson Hill is just too steep for rail to safely navigate at any reasonable speed mixing with traffic. Rapid bus works just fine. Skytrain works coming out of Surrey because it is already a dedicated and elevated structure on both sides of the Fraser. It also uses induction motors which don't rely on friction and weight for traction. LRT, imo, will never be nothing more than a pet project within Surrey, if it ever gets built.

You're not bursting any bubble of mine I know for a fact the bridge was built with LRT in mind for possible future use.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents Skytrain being used on the Port Mann? Is the weight or width actually that much more?

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yeah, and what allows light rail to go on the bridge? There's no place for it as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by cornholio

I am pretty sure light rail vehicles are significantly heavier then skytrain cars and that's what matters at the end of the day. The weight of the rails, overhead wires, etc. will probably play a much smaller role then the weight of the rolling stock going over it all.

In any case there is no point in building any rail over that bridge in the foreseeable future. Rapid buses work just fine to hop over it.

It is nothing to do with the weight factor of Skytrain vs LRT. Its the fact the skytrain is automated while LRT would be able to be mixed in with the HOV lane. A driver would be needed to control speed to work with mixed traffic.

I will say Skytrain could be possible but it would require taking away a full lane which is something I do not see people agreeing with.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

You're not bursting any bubble of mine I know for a fact the bridge was built with LRT in mind for possible future use.

You still haven't explained where LRT is supposed to run on the bridge in a way that wouldn't affect the traffic lanes that you claim Skytrain would take.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Hate to burst the bubble but LRT, skytrain, and any other form of rail will never use the Port Mann to reach Coquitlam. Johnson Hill is just too steep for rail to safely navigate at any reasonable speed mixing with traffic.

I'm no engineer but my simple measurement of the bridge to 152nd offramp on Google Earth shows a 270 foot elevation gain over about 4500 feet, which works out to almost exactly a 6% grade - which is within the Skytrain guideway design spec. If there's no room on the bridge then another SkyBridge could be built parallel to the Port Mann, and if the grade still turns out to be an issue then they could always tunnel through a portion of the grade like the Evergreen extension did.

There may well be plenty of other good reasons why running Skytrain at that location won't happen, but I don't think that "not technically feasible" is one of them.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

Say some one coming from lets say guildford or newton area they would have to bus then transfer to skytrain then transfer at columbia then transfer again on to the evergreen line. Now say they need to bus some where once in coquitlam they'd have to transfer yet again. Majority of people will stick to driving with that many transfers. I'm just talking this is possible for future use to help get people out of cars



You're not bursting any bubble of mine I know for a fact the bridge was built with LRT in mind for possible future use.





It is nothing to do with the weight factor of Skytrain vs LRT. Its the fact the skytrain is automated while LRT would be able to be mixed in with the HOV lane. A driver would be needed to control speed to work with mixed traffic.

I will say Skytrain could be possible but it would require taking away a full lane which is something I do not see people agreeing with.

I somehow doubt this, LRT does sometimes run in mixed traffic however in doubtful that that would be the case at highway speed, and anyways aren't most LRVs and Skytrain only capaable of like 80 km/h? And embedded Tracks in a highway? Do you actually have any source that suggests that's how LRT would be implemented?

Sounds unlikrly

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I somehow doubt this, LRT does sometimes run in mixed traffic however in doubtful that that would be the case at highway speed, and anyways aren't most LRVs and Skytrain only capaable of like 80 km/h? And embedded Tracks in a highway? Do you actually have any source that suggests that's how LRT would be implemented?

Sounds unlikrly

http://www.ticorp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PartnershipsBC-Project-Report-14-March-2011.pdf

On page 7

Project Goals
As a result of these studies, the following goals
were established for the Port Mann/Highway 1
Improvement Project:
• Reduce travel times for trips along the corridor
and increase travel time predictability;
• Reduce congestion at entry and exit points to
Highway 1;
• Reduce travel times for trips across the corridor
and improve connections within and between
communities;
• Improve access to and egress from the corridor
for goods movement;
• Facilitate the introduction of transit service along
the corridor and the improvement of transit
service across the corridor;
• Expand HOV, cycling and pedestrian networks
along or in the vicinity of the corridor; and
• Improve safety for vehicle operators and
passengers, cyclists and pedestrians.
The pre-design concept for the Port Mann/Highway
1 Improvement Project included the following
features:
• Added capacity to the Highway 1 corridor;
• Extending the westbound and eastbound HOV
lanes on Highway 1;
• Transit priority measures, including the
introduction of bus service through transit queuejumpers
and extended HOV lanes;
• Significant cycling and pedestrian infrastructure
improvements; and
• Ability to accommodate future light rail rapid
transit expansion across a new Port Mann Bridge.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I somehow doubt this, LRT does sometimes run in mixed traffic however in doubtful that that would be the case at highway speed, and anyways aren't most LRVs and Skytrain only capaable of like 80 km/h? And embedded Tracks in a highway? Do you actually have any source that suggests that's how LRT would be implemented?

Sounds unlikrly

We're not likely to see any rail on the Port Mann because there is no mechanism to connect rail on either side of the river. On the Burnaby/NewWest/Coquitlam side, at best it could connect back to Braid station against the original Southeast alignment proposed for the Evergreen line.




(source: http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/documents/Business_Case/080219_BusinessCase.pdf )

Like I could see something like Braid-Schoolhouse Street-Mayfair-Riverview-Meadowbrook-Coquitlam Center-Port Coquitlam working in theory, with the Port Mann connection at Mayfair.

On the Surrey side it's even worse. Assuming the 104/Guildford LRT is built a connection would need to be built at 152nd street going from Guildford mall up through the center of the highway. It would have to replace either two of the southbound lanes or two of the northbound lanes, which means complicating how counterflow works.

Like, the Skytrain could be done by simply connecting to the middle of the bridge, and connecting to the Skytrain on the other side of the river. Easy, but expensive. However with an at-grade LRT there is just too many things to cross, including a highway on both sides of the river. I'm sure the business case would not work to put any train over the Port Mann unless that southeast route had been an at-grade LRT to begin with, or had Surrey demanded Skytrain in the first place.

So this is just never going to happen. The grade of the Port Mann would likely not work for conventional adhesion rail LRV's anyway, and if it were to connect to Guildford, would require LRV's that can climb that at the time they are ordered, thus increasing the costs. We already know Surrey wants to build a LRT as cheap as possible so we may as well forget about this.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Kisai

We're not likely to see any rail on the Port Mann because there is no mechanism to connect rail on either side of the river. On the Burnaby/NewWest/Coquitlam side, at best it could connect back to Braid station against the original Southeast alignment proposed for the Evergreen line.




(source: http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/documents/Business_Case/080219_BusinessCase.pdf )

Like I could see something like Braid-Schoolhouse Street-Mayfair-Riverview-Meadowbrook-Coquitlam Center-Port Coquitlam working in theory, with the Port Mann connection at Mayfair.

On the Surrey side it's even worse. Assuming the 104/Guildford LRT is built a connection would need to be built at 152nd street going from Guildford mall up through the center of the highway. It would have to replace either two of the southbound lanes or two of the northbound lanes, which means complicating how counterflow works.

Like, the Skytrain could be done by simply connecting to the middle of the bridge, and connecting to the Skytrain on the other side of the river. Easy, but expensive. However with an at-grade LRT there is just too many things to cross, including a highway on both sides of the river. I'm sure the business case would not work to put any train over the Port Mann unless that southeast route had been an at-grade LRT to begin with, or had Surrey demanded Skytrain in the first place.

So this is just never going to happen. The grade of the Port Mann would likely not work for conventional adhesion rail LRV's anyway, and if it were to connect to Guildford, would require LRV's that can climb that at the time they are ordered, thus increasing the costs. We already know Surrey wants to build a LRT as cheap as possible so we may as well forget about this.

Ditto!!!

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

http://www.ticorp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PartnershipsBC-Project-Report-14-March-2011.pdf

On page 7

Project Goals
As a result of these studies, the following goals
• Ability to accommodate future light rail rapid
transit expansion across a new Port Mann Bridge.

I never said that it wasn't capable of LRT....

If you had read what I wrote you would note that I was actually critquing the implementwtion you seem to think they will use which is tracks embedded in a highway despite the fact that embedded tracks seem unlikely and that typical LRVs don't operate at highway speeds....
Please read my comment instead of just posting a wall of text...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

http://www.ticorp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PartnershipsBC-Project-Report-14-March-2011.pdf

On page 7

Project Goals
As a result of these studies, the following goals
were established for the Port Mann/Highway 1
Improvement Project:
:
:
:
• Ability to accommodate future light rail rapid
transit expansion across a new Port Mann Bridge.

A "goal" means nothing unless it was achieved. And I see nothing on that bridge that would accommodate any kind of rail transit without removing traffic lanes.

[dpogue]

From a document on TransLink's Open Bids page regarding Legal Services for upcoming major projects:

The [Surrey-Newton-Guildford] LRT Project is a 10.4-kilometre LRT line extending from Surrey City Centre east along 104 Avenue to Guildford Town Centre and south down King George Boulevard to Newton Town Centre. The SNG LRT Project will be a modern, ‘urban style’ LRT line that will operate at street level, primarily in the centre medians of 104 Avenue and King George Boulevard. The SNG LRT Project will include 11 stops along the length of the line, delivering frequent and reliable transit service between Guildford and Newton town centres via Surrey City Centre and will be coordinated with, and connect to, the local and regional cycling network as well as local bus and regional SkyTrain transit systems.

[...]

Work will continue through 2017 to prepare the SNG LRT Project for procurement. Approval of all funding is expected before the end of 2017. The SNG LRT Project procurement process would be initiated as early as late 2017, contingent on TransLink receiving the necessary funding approvals.

[GlassCity]

This doesn't mean it's too late to shift it from LRT, does it?