DENVER | Transportation Thread

[EngiNerd]

I might be late to the game on this one, but I really like the new Mall Ride color scheme.

[TakeFive]

Creating the Next Generation Bus Service for Denver

I doubt anybody noticed; I certainly didn't let on. A few short years ago I didn't know jack about buses or bus routes; furthermore I couldn't have cared less. Now, having successfully scratched the surface it's time to dig a little deeper.

BRT is all the rage - sorta
Many cities have tried to incorporate BRT but most have suffered Cirrus' now famous and widely quoted BRT Creep.

What's the difference between "Enhanced" bus service and BRT? RTD uses the Transit Glossary definitions; I'm using ACT's reprint of those:

BRT (Bus Rapid Transit)

Refers to a new concept that seeks to achieve a high quality transit service like light rail but at a lower cost using buses. BRT vehicles are generally low-floor, high capacity, low-emission buses, with exclusive rights-of-way, rapid fare collection, and infrastructure development.

Enhanced bus

Refers to an option for improving existing bus service at a lower cost than either BRT or LRT (bus rapid transit or light rail transit). Enhanced bus service uses low-floor, low-emission buses, but without dedicated bus lanes. Stops are planned at greater distances than existing bus service.

ACTransit also has this nifty breakout of the differences between Enhanced and BRT.

Of all the cities that have claimed to have BRT routes ONLY ONE has even achieved Silver status in the U.S. - Cleveland's HealthLine


Photo courtesy RTA (no credits)

More insight to come...

Originally Posted by wong21fr

RTD's 40' fleet is pretty much composed entirely of Gillig's Clean Diesel model which is only low floor and is used on most local routes. Route 48 down Brighton and Route 44 down Larimer (closest to Blake) would use these.

Thnx

[TakeFive]

What a Difference a Day Makes...
What a classic covered here by and a tribute to Amy Winehouse

Frontier Airlines adds, restores dozens of flights for summer; offers discounts today only
Apr 24, 2017 by Mark Harden - Denver Business Journal

Frontier Airlines said today it is bringing back nonstop summer flights to and from 37 markets — including 14 Denver destinations — and has begun new nonstop service in seven markets.

So after cutting their DEN presence in half so they could expand elsewhere now Frontier is back to loving Denver? Actually, their timing for both is probably strategically smart. Crank up the DEN passenger traffic estimates.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Frontier Airlines adds, restores dozens of flights for summer; offers discounts today only[/SIZE]
Apr 24, 2017 by Mark Harden - Denver Business Journal

So after cutting their DEN presence in half so they could expand elsewhere now Frontier is back to loving Denver? Actually, their timing for both is probably strategically smart. Crank up the DEN passenger traffic estimates.

None of these routes are new. If anything this is just DBJ adding a Frontier press release. These are yearly, routine seasonal additions that Frontier has done since their Denver drawdown. Annoying because places like PIT, DTW, LGA, RDU, IAD, CLE should be year round on Frontier. It's not Frontier loving Denver. It's Frontier saying they make more money on these routes in the summer and more money on other routes the rest of the year. Come to think of it, I think Frontier's new focus city is actually Cleveland.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

I might be late to the game on this one, but I really like the new Mall Ride color scheme.

I like it just fine. Looks a touch familiar.


via constantine hannaher on flickr

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Come to think of it, I think Frontier's new focus city is actually Cleveland.

Good. We don't need this garbage airline to be hubbed in Denver when we already have Southwest and United.

Wasnt frontier just ranked the lowest in customer satisfaction out of any US carrier?


I refuse to fly them. Only airline that is worse is spirit.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I like it just fine. Looks a touch familiar.

Actually, this one...



is outstanding. Yours is a bit meh.

Originally Posted by seventwenty

None of these routes are new. If anything this is just DBJ adding a Frontier press release. These are yearly, routine seasonal additions that Frontier has done since their Denver drawdown. Annoying because places like PIT, DTW, LGA, RDU, IAD, CLE should be year round on Frontier. It's not Frontier loving Denver. It's Frontier saying they make more money on these routes in the summer and more money on other routes the rest of the year. Come to think of it, I think Frontier's new focus city is actually Cleveland.

WTF, you mean I got all hot and bothered over a ruse?
Thanks for the clarification though.

Could have ruined my day except for the Colorado Rockies rallying to beat the Washington Nationals 8-4. Last thing I wanted was for Cirrus to have bragging rights. Well, not tonight.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Good. We don't need this garbage airline to be hubbed in Denver when we already have Southwest and United.

Wasnt frontier just ranked the lowest in customer satisfaction out of any US carrier?


I refuse to fly them. Only airline that is worse is spirit.

So happy to read that a former Boulderite speaks on behalf of all income levels, expectations, and experiences for the metro region, Colorado, and the country.

Sure Frontier isn't what it used to be. But I can't knock the airline if they're open about the crap they pull. It's on you at that point.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Could have ruined my day except for the Colorado Rockies rallying to beat the Washington Nationals 8-4. Last thing I wanted was for Cirrus to have bragging rights. Well, not tonight.

Cirrus better be a Rockie.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Sure Frontier isn't what it used to be. But I can't knock the airline if they're open about the crap they pull.

From what I recall...

Frontier was bought and brought out of Bankruptcy by an investment group from Scottsdale, AZ. They were having trouble competing in Denver against SW (primarily) which was big enough to put pricing pressure on their routes w/o suffering themselves.

Something had to be done so they adopted a discount model. In Phoenix, Allegiant Air has been very successful with this model but flies out of Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport instead of Sky Harbor. By downsizing in Denver Frontier was able to develop other Focus Cities. Apparently this has worked out well for them despite a few hiccups along the way. They have recently filed to do a new stock IPO.

Afaik, they are happy maintaining their HQ in Denver so I'll support them for that reason alone.

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

From what I recall...

Frontier was bought and brought out of Bankruptcy by an investment group from Scottsdale, AZ. They were having trouble competing in Denver against SW (primarily) which was big enough to put pricing pressure on their routes w/o suffering themselves.

Something had to be done so they adopted a discount model. In Phoenix, Allegiant Air has been very successful with this model but flies out of Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport instead of Sky Harbor. By downsizing in Denver Frontier was able to develop other Focus Cities. Apparently this has worked out well for them despite a few hiccups along the way. They have recently filed to do a new stock IPO.

Afaik, they are happy maintaining their HQ in Denver so I'll support them for that reason alone.

Frontier was originally saved by Republic. They were originally offered a buyout from Southwest but rejected it. Once Republic realized they couldn't run a branded airline operation, they sold it off to the same group that flipped Spirit from a frumpy carrier into the ULCC airline that it is today.

But I agree. I really miss the Frontier of the early 2000s that was more or less a JetBlue of the west – new Airbus aircraft, live TV, clean cabins, and nice customer service. Unfortunately, that business model stopped working once Southwest realized what they were missing out on and once United stopped shrinking in Denver post-bankruptcy.

The ULCC model certainly isn't for everyone, and I would almost never book a ticket on Frontier, Allegiant, or Spirit today, but their effects in the market are much appreciated. I recently booked a United ticket LAX-DEN for $54 one way! So even if you don't fly the ULCCs, at least be glad at the pricing pressure they put on the legacies and Southwest, which has basically become a legacy carrier as far as costs are concerned.

What's also nice about Frontier's downsizing in Denver in recent years is that it has allowed new carriers to come in or expansion for existing ones. Delta, American, Alaska, Virgin America, and the Mexican airlines have all expanded in Denver. That probably wouldn't have been possible if Frontier were still trying to duplicate United and Southwest's footprint to everywhere while taking up valuable gate space in Concourse A.

[LooksLikeForever]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

The ULCC model certainly isn't for everyone, and I would almost never book a ticket on Frontier, Allegiant, or Spirit today, but their effects in the market are much appreciated. I recently booked a United ticket LAX-DEN for $54 one way! So even if you don't fly the ULCCs, at least be glad at the pricing pressure they put on the legacies and Southwest, which has basically become a legacy carrier as far as costs are concerned.

As a long time reader, first time poster, I felt the need to add my two cents about Frontier. I fly a lot, both for business and pleasure, and initially I was reluctant to try the 'new' Frontier. I used to be a huge advocate of Frontier. I loved that they touted themselves as Colorado's hometown airline, they served New Belgium beer on their flights, and every seat had its own TV.

When they switched to the ULCC model, I refused to fly them for several years. I stuck primarily to Southwest and United where routes overlapped. However, only Southwest still allows free checked baggage and all airlines are increasingly minimizing legroom.

If you pay the extra 50/60 dollars per leg, you can get all bundled options including extra legroom, checked & carry-on bags, flight refunds and changes at no extra cost, and priority boarding (zone 1). I can't think of another airline in the country that allows all of these options for the same price as a Frontier ticket, and their stretch legroom seats are pretty nice. They're the only seats on the plane that recline, by the way.

I know this sounds like I'm a Frontier apologist or employee, but I'm not! I'm just hoping people don't refuse to fly because of assumptions they have before experiencing it themselves.

Now when it comes to Allegiant and Spirit... forget about it. Don't even get me started. At least Frontier flies planes built this millennium.

Bringing it back to Denver talk: I did notice that the signage at DIA has improved slightly regarding the train. When it first opened there was signage throughout baggage claim with arrows pointing towards "Transit Center" and a small picture of a train & bus. This was just terrible signage as it wasn't clear if this was the only transit center in the airport, and there was no indication that the train to downtown departed from there.

More recently I noticed they've changed the wording to specify "Train to City", but again I wonder... why not just say "Train to Downtown Denver" or similar? Why be vague about it? One of DIA's greatest assets is now the A line and the train to downtown. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of tourists arriving at DIA don't even know they have a train option, and instinctively open up Uber/Lyft or look for a taxi stand. As you ascend the escalator from the airport train from concourses A/B/C to the main terminal, you are presented with a VERY old image of Denver and "Welcome to Denver, the Mile High City" or something similar. How great would it be if that picture could be updated with a new image featuring the train running into downtown, and an LED display listing the next four or five departures for the A line heading to downtown? In the main DIA hall, they could have a large board like a throwback to Grand Central Station with the timetables for the next departures on the A line to downtown. Really shove it in your face that yes, we too have a train option!

I don't know who is in charge of signage at DIA but it is an absolute joke. Beyond way-finding issues to the train for tourists, I find that 'Terminal West' and 'Terminal East' are not easily identified from the main hall, not to mention the impossibility of finding where you're supposed to be picked up at passenger pickup if you're not a local. I can't count the number of times I've seen people arguing on the phone about level 4 (passenger pickup) vs. level 5, which set of doors, are they on the right side of the terminal (east vs west) etc.

Excuse my ranting and raving, I'm done now.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of tourists arriving at DIA don't even know they have a train option, and instinctively open up Uber/Lyft or look for a taxi stand.

That might not be such a bad thing. I love my hometown and I care about how it’s perceived by outsiders. As a Denver booster, that train ride from the airport to downtown is humiliating. It couldn’t be any worse. Before riding that train, if I were to try to picture the ugliest parts of the city, I don’t think I would have pictured something quite that ugly. I had never seen some of those areas before so I was kind of shocked by it.

When I was living in San Francisco I was offered a job promotion that would require me to move to the Inland Empire. Before taking the promotion, I did a little research about the area and determined that it wasn’t exactly a spectacular place, but there were some good things about it; plus, it’s big enough that there would have to be some cool parts, and if I got to know the area well enough, I would probably find plenty of charming neighborhoods to choose from.

After taking the promotion, but just before actually moving there, I flew down there to pay a visit to the new distribution center I would be working out of. I remember cruising down the 10 in my rental car, through areas like Rialto and San Bernardino, on my way to the DC, and my heart just sank as I realized I had made a terrible mistake. I almost felt sick. Anyway, I can picture someone new to Denver having a similar experience as they’re making their way from the airport to their hotel on that train.

I hope all the new TOD that will presumably be developed along that train route dramatically improves the experience. I remember thinking once I get to RiNo things would improve. Nope. RiNo is a fun, quirky, happening place I guess, but it still has a long way to go before it’s anything other than hideous.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

That might not be such a bad thing. I love my hometown and I care about how it’s perceived by outsiders. As a Denver booster, that train ride from the airport to downtown is humiliating. It couldn’t be any worse. Before riding that train, if I were to try to picture the ugliest parts of the city, I don’t think I would have pictured something quite that ugly. I had never seen some of those areas before so I was kind of shocked by it.

You mean just like the ugly-ass drive along I-70 from the airport? Not everything can look like the suburban-shit you find along US-36 or I-25, especially if a route is situated through a cities thriving industrial district. It's pointless to try and put lipstick on that pig.

But as a comparative, I think about other airport lines with "stellar" views. Newark, Hartsfield (all the scared white folks), Gatwick, etc. Do those visual experiences take away from the respective cities at the end of those lines?

Though Atlanta might be a poor example.....

[LooksLikeForever]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You mean just like the ugly-ass drive along I-70 from the airport? Not everything can look like the suburban-shit you find along US-36 or I-25, especially if a route is situated through a cities thriving industrial district. It's pointless to try and put lipstick on that pig.

But as a comparative, I think about other airport lines with "stellar" views. Newark, Hartsfield (all the scared white folks), Gatwick, etc. Do those visual experiences take away from the respective cities at the end of those lines?

Though Atlanta might be a poor example.....

Agreed, the A line is more or less the same view you get along Pena/I-70, until you hit RiNo and the train veers south/southwest whereas along 70 you're rewarded with a beautiful view of the 25/70 interchange.

Having ridden the AirTrain to JFK and Portland's Red Line to PDX, I don't think the A Line is any better or worse. Along I-70 you pass by the Safeway Distribution Center & Milk Plant, Purina plant, the hideous Denver Coliseum, all along the way peppered by a dispensary or two.

However you slice it: the first impression for anyone arriving at DIA heading downtown, either by car or rail, is not a positive one. Perhaps in a decade when the I-70 rebuild is complete and portions of it are buried it will be improved, but only slightly.

As an exercise, what would be the most scenic approach to downtown from DIA? I suppose riding E-470 all the way south to pick up I-25 and then north through the tech center? Alternately heading up 470 to the NW Parkway interchange and then down I-25 South wouldn't be bad either, although both routes add about 40 minutes to your journey.

Maybe heading straight down to Colfax from Pena and riding westbound along nearly the entirety of East Colfax through Aurora and Denver? You'd get a real feel for the city, though maybe not one that your guests would immediately appreciate.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

It couldn’t be any worse. Before riding that train, if I were to try to picture the ugliest parts of the city, I don’t think I would have pictured something quite that ugly. I had never seen some of those areas before so I was kind of shocked by it.

They're not that bad - there aren't huge swaths of abandoned houses or really-really heavy industry, just some light industrial and semi-crappy warehouses. Just about every city across the world has similar (or much worse) tracts of ugliness.

It's actually my favorite part of the A Line, because it reminds me of coming into Munich or Strasbourg or Prague by train - a journey through industrial wastelands and brutalist apartment blocks, and then you walk through the train station and emerge into the city.

[PhilipDDG]

Sam Hill: "That might not be such a bad thing. I love my hometown and I care about how it’s perceived by outsiders. As a Denver booster, that train ride from the airport to downtown is humiliating. It couldn’t be any worse. Before riding that train, if I were to try to picture the ugliest parts of the city, I don’t think I would have pictured something quite that ugly. I had never seen some of those areas before so I was kind of shocked by it."

Well, it's not burning buildings and roving gangs of Mad Max wannabes. Even Seattle, a city I consider in many ways to be stellar, has some rough patches. But Denver's A-line is, after all, heavy rail. That almost guarantees it a walk home through Denver's backside. Also, Denver's a dusty town--something it can't realistically change--so, short of plastic palms, the best flora we can hope for in our industrial landscape is scraggly brush and tumbleweeds. Graffiti is a whole different matter.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You mean just like the ugly-ass drive along I-70 from the airport?

The train is worse. I-70 is pretty bad but at least you’re up high, with a decent view of the skyline and some good views of the urban forest stretching toward the horizon. (I don’t know; maybe it doesn’t seem that bad to me because I’m just used to it.) On the train, you’re down in the grit. At each stop, you have a sprawling parking lot on one side, and graffiti covered, dilapidated industrialization on the other. I’ve flown by those neighborhoods on I-70 countless times, but I don’t think I ever found myself actually down in them. I remember looking around at a couple of those stops in north Denver and thinking, ‘now I get all the bitching and whining over on Denver Urbanism about streets without sidewalks.’ That ridiculously long parking lot that stretches for blocks and blocks north of Coors Field is annoying also. I really hope that gets filled in one day.

Anyway, I’m not saying it’s the end of the world. I’m probably being overly dramatic. Unlike my Inland Empire experience, where there was no light at the end of the tunnel, at least the A Line experience ends with stepping off the train in a shiny, glass, urban oasis with a pretty impressive downtown (relative to the size of the metro) stretching out before you. I could see a tourist walking through Union Station into LoDo and thinking, "Wow, their downtown seems really cool."

Another part of the train ride that would have to seem strange to a tourist, is the beginning. The train meanders through open prairie for a really long time and even makes a couple stops in the middle of nowhere for seemingly no reason. I noticed people were actually getting on and off at those stops. A cheap place to park your car I suppose.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Another part of the train ride that would have to seem strange to a tourist, is the beginning. The train meanders through open prairie for a really long time and even makes a couple stops in the middle of nowhere for seemingly no reason. I noticed people were actually getting on and off at those stops. A cheap place to park your car I suppose.

That's exactly what FlyDenver is promoting at 61st and Peña, park and fly.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

The train is worse. I-70 is pretty bad but at least you’re up high, with a decent view of the skyline and some good views of the urban forest stretching toward the horizon. (I don’t know; maybe it doesn’t seem that bad to me because I’m just used to it.) On the train, you’re down in the grit. At each stop, you have a sprawling parking lot on one side, and graffiti covered, dilapidated industrialization on the other. I’ve flown by those neighborhoods on I-70 countless times, but I don’t think I ever found myself actually down in them. I remember looking around at a couple of those stops in north Denver and thinking, ‘now I get all the bitching and whining over on Denver Urbanism about streets without sidewalks.’ That ridiculously long parking lot that stretches for blocks and blocks north of Coors Field is annoying also. I really hope that gets filled in one day.

Anyway, I’m not saying it’s the end of the world. I’m probably being overly dramatic. Unlike my Inland Empire experience, where there was no light at the end of the tunnel, at least the A Line experience ends with stepping off the train in a shiny, glass, urban oasis with a pretty impressive downtown (relative to the size of the metro) stretching out before you. I could see a tourist walking through Union Station into LoDo and thinking, "Wow, their downtown seems really cool."

Another part of the train ride that would have to seem strange to a tourist, is the beginning. The train meanders through open prairie for a really long time and even makes a couple stops in the middle of nowhere for seemingly no reason. I noticed people were actually getting on and off at those stops. A cheap place to park your car I suppose.

I totally disagree. I've been on trains pulling into a dozen or more cities in Europe and they are all like that: back sides of industrial buildings, ugly apartment blocks, busy highways or arterials, etc. I can't think of any where the train ride into the city is a sequence of spectacular sights and vistas of the city's most impressive buildings, parks, and neighborhoods.

It's an industrial corridor largely. Who cares? It never crossed my mind that anyone would have the reaction you have and I've not talked to anyone who has ever said anything close to your reaction. What I have heard from a number of people is how cool it is to see the back sides of industrial buildings that you normally can't see from the highway, or close-up views of the freight rail yards.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I totally disagree. I've been on trains pulling into a dozen or more cities in Europe and they are all like that: back sides of industrial buildings, ugly apartment blocks, busy highways or arterials, etc. I can't think of any where the train ride into the city is a sequence of spectacular sights and vistas of the city's most impressive buildings, parks, and neighborhoods.

It's an industrial corridor largely. Who cares? It never crossed my mind that anyone would have the reaction you have and I've not talked to anyone who has ever said anything close to your reaction. What I have heard from a number of people is how cool it is to see the back sides of industrial buildings that you normally can't see from the highway, or close-up views of the freight rail yards.

I second this. I was born and raised in Europe, have taken longer train rides weekly and the trains always go through the industrial back sides of the cities before ending up sorta adjacent to downtown. My experience is based on Slovakia, primarily, but Bratislava, Košice, Michalovce, basically most cities on the main East-West corridor across the country take you through their industrial parts. The rest of the rid is wonderful with amazing mountain views, through forests etc.