Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

While I'd much prefer that we did RR1A (and for that matter, that we'd taken all the toll cut loss that the NDP and Liberals are proposing and spent it on flooding S. Fraser with buses) The Surrey Rapid Transit study doesn't exactly paint the picture of a disaster, juts a bad investment. the L-Line is the worst option, but not because of ongoing operating losses but rather that it just has high costs and relatively slight gains. This makes sense, since the real draw back of rail infrastructure is the capital costs, not the operating costs.

I don't think that it will be an operational ulcer, merely a misallocation of capital funds that could have been better spent

I think it's a very accurate assessment. There are so many potential capital projects that could be undertaken with better business cases. Think the one for the BM gondola was very good, would be nice to see that funded since it is realitvely inexpensive.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

It's clear to me that when the Fraser Line is on the table, Skytrain will be the end result. However, the L line doesn't justify skytrain rn as I am sure everyone would agree, but Surrey wants rt and the budget can't fit much of an extension of the Expo Line down fraser, so this is what we get.

The LRTs will not be built till the Skytrain reaches UBC. By then, there will be money for the extension to Langley; built in stages. The L LRT line will be delayed, and then once it could support an Skytrain route, a Skytrain route will be built.

If Surrey really wants to do it on their own, the LRTs could be built, and then they would have Skytrain paralleling it.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The LRTs will not be built till the Skytrain reaches UBC. By then, there will be money for the extension to Langley; built in stages. The L LRT line will be delayed, and then once it could support an Skytrain route, a Skytrain route will be built.

If Surrey really wants to do it on their own, the LRTs could be built, and then they would have Skytrain paralleling it.

Idk I have heard repeatedly from people on this forum that the L line would be cancelled but, it has continually progressed and it's looking like construction will start within the year. And once shovels in the ground the chance of abandoning the project drops significantly.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Idk I have heard repeatedly from people on this forum that the L line would be cancelled but, it has continually progressed and it's looking like construction will start within the year. And once shovels in the ground the chance of abandoning the project drops significantly.

Most citizens- especially the segment between the ages of 18-30 are so disconnected from municipal politics. In fact, at least 80% of people I have talked to have no clue this thing is being built in their backyard.

Another sign that the project is going ahead is the fact that the City has deferred any road improvements along 104th Ave this summer (they will be patching potholes). Once shovels hit the ground and 104th Avenue begins to see temp closures....the — show will ensue. Most ignorant residents will blame Translink but it will be too late to do anything.

This brings up the issue of voter apathy or a disconnect from politics. In fact, most youth just shy away from discussing politics - and it is nearly taboo to even bring up any important issues. This is why every level of government can ram down any decision without facing any backlash or repercussions.

[SFUVancouver]

The Burnaby Mountain Gondola is an open-and-shut case for a P3 design-finance-build-operate concessionaire contract. I sincerely hope that comes to fruition.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Most citizens- especially the segment between the ages of 18-30 are so disconnected from municipal politics. In fact, at least 80% of people I have talked to have no clue this thing is being built in their backyard.

Another sign that the project is going ahead is the fact that the City has deferred any road improvements along 104th Ave this summer (they will be patching potholes). Once shovels hit the ground and 104th Avenue begins to see temp closures....the — show will ensue. Most ignorant residents will blame Translink but it will be too late to do anything.

This brings up the issue of voter apathy or a disconnect from politics. In fact, most youth just shy away from discussing politics - and it is nearly taboo to even bring up any important issues. This is why every level of government can ram down any decision without facing any backlash or repercussions.

Anecdotal, I think young people are actually quite politically engaged. I know numerous people who are either Pro LRT or Pro Skytrain, virtually every young person I know is for expanding rapid transit.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

The Burnaby Mountain Gondola is an open-and-shut case for a P3 design-finance-build-operate concessionaire contract. I sincerely hope that comes to fruition.

It would be great if instead of building the new stadium they out aside the funds for the gondola, the business case is excellent.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

It would be great if instead of building the new stadium they out aside the funds for the gondola, the business case is excellent.

Full disclosure. I am positive SFUVancouver did a study on the feasiblity of this project, in which case he has a justified personal motivation to push this project forward.

I did however at one point read allot of the info on it and I makes sense to me. Would be interesting if they could ever incorporate a re development of the co op housing on Burnaby mountain and create a mid station on Forest Grove drive and a more complete community there. Also a gondola down the north side could also be worth exploring. They could route all the Hastings/Port Moody buses to its base, maybe put in a WCE station, parking facilities, and the park there can be improved to attract tourists. Its a even simpler project and probably both could be built.

[Trainguy]

Who says LRT is cheap? Here is a recent newspaper clipping from Ottawa....


Ottawa Ontario - Ottawa's light rail project is the most expensive infrastructure undertaking in the city's history.

The $2.1 billion cost alone, borne exclusively by taxpayers, makes the LRT the most consequential project in Ottawa right now.

So there should be virtually no questions about the project that are out of bounds.

But this is what the city's general manager of transportation services, John Manconi, told reporters when asked what happened to the May 2018 target date.

"I know you're looking for us to give you all kinds of dates and so forth," Manconi said.

"The fact of the matter is this, the train will go into revenue service when the train is ready to go into revenue service."


I can only imagine how expensive Surrey's LRT will become. Waste of taxpayer's money!!

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Who says LRT is cheap? Here is a recent newspaper clipping from Ottawa....


Ottawa Ontario - Ottawa's light rail project is the most expensive infrastructure undertaking in the city's history.

The $2.1 billion cost alone, borne exclusively by taxpayers, makes the LRT the most consequential project in Ottawa right now.

So there should be virtually no questions about the project that are out of bounds.

But this is what the city's general manager of transportation services, John Manconi, told reporters when asked what happened to the May 2018 target date.

"I know you're looking for us to give you all kinds of dates and so forth," Manconi said.

"The fact of the matter is this, the train will go into revenue service when the train is ready to go into revenue service."


I can only imagine how expensive Surrey's LRT will become. Waste of taxpayer's money!!

The problem here seems to stem from a lack of understanding of the Ottawa project as well as the Surrey project because they are quite different. I won't debate that their is a strong argument against Surrey LRT BUT, just saying "oh look Ottawa is building an expensive LRT" is no better than those articles dating how Skytrain is an outdated technology or whatever.

In the end Ottawas project isn't even that expensive considering that it is fully grade separated, includes tunnels and tunneled stations, and requires purchase of a fleet of LRVs and an OM building.

As has been discussed at length the main component that drives the cost isn't actually the technology but, the ROW. Of course a system with a separated right of way is going to be more expensive, but then that's not what Surreys proposed system is either....

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Who says LRT is cheap? Here is a recent newspaper clipping from Ottawa....


Ottawa Ontario - Ottawa's light rail project is the most expensive infrastructure undertaking in the city's history.

The $2.1 billion cost alone, borne exclusively by taxpayers, makes the LRT the most consequential project in Ottawa right now.

So there should be virtually no questions about the project that are out of bounds.

But this is what the city's general manager of transportation services, John Manconi, told reporters when asked what happened to the May 2018 target date.

"I know you're looking for us to give you all kinds of dates and so forth," Manconi said.

"The fact of the matter is this, the train will go into revenue service when the train is ready to go into revenue service."


I can only imagine how expensive Surrey's LRT will become. Waste of taxpayer's money!!

Ottawa's LRT is grade separated, in a trench or tunneled. Surrey's will intermix with traffic.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Worth noting is that Ottawa's light rail plan is actually cheaper than Surrey's, despite being grade-separated.

[POCO]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Worth noting is that Ottawa's light rail plan is actually cheaper than Surrey's, despite being grade-separated.

Ottawa's LRT project is fantastic. It's going to connect the majority of the city with a grade separated LRT. It's actually pretty cheap when you consider that they are getting a tunnel through the majority of downtown Ottawa to go along with it. If you've seen the East/West streets of Ottawa at rush hour its bumper to bumper buses trying to get across the downtown to the transit way at either end. When this is done it will make a drastic improvement in travel times and remove hundreds of noisy, slow buses from the downtown. It's eventally going to connect the whole region and I can see it crossing the river into Gatineau once people see how much of a difference it makes.

[twoNeurons]

Personally, I think LRT has a MUCH higher chance of being extended to White Rock than, say, SkyTrain would.

Also, if Surrey pushed for SkyTrain down Fraser Hwy... it would still be in the... wait until Broadway is done first. Metro Vancouver still isn't capable of running two large rapid transit projects at the same time... or at least politicians don't have the stomach for it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Personally, I think LRT has a MUCH higher chance of being extended to White Rock than, say, SkyTrain would.

Also, if Surrey pushed for SkyTrain down Fraser Hwy... it would still be in the... wait until Broadway is done first. Metro Vancouver still isn't capable of running two large rapid transit projects at the same time... or at least politicians don't have the stomach for it.

Why?
Skytrain can travel faster, and can carry more.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why?
Skytrain can travel faster, and can carry more.

As he stated, alot of projects would be higher priority and a Skytrain Extension is going to cost more as well, ESP considering that Expo will be going down Fraser.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why?
Skytrain can travel faster, and can carry more.

But is there really a need to carry more in the area, or is the need to have shorter, more frequent trips.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As he stated, alot of projects would be higher priority and a Skytrain Extension is going to cost more as well, ESP considering that Expo will be going down Fraser.

It's not carved in stone yet.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As he stated, alot of projects would be higher priority and a Skytrain Extension is going to cost more as well, ESP considering that Expo will be going down Fraser.

Why do you say skytrain is more expensive? It looks to me that skytrain (grade separated) is in fact cheaper then LRT down these corridors. As has been mentioned there is no good ROW to work with.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As he stated, alot of projects would be higher priority and a Skytrain Extension is going to cost more as well, ESP considering that Expo will be going down Fraser.

Originally Posted by Sheba

But is there really a need to carry more in the area, or is the need to have shorter, more frequent trips.

It's not carved in stone yet.

Originally Posted by cornholio

Why do you say skytrain is more expensive? It looks to me that skytrain (grade separated) is in fact cheaper then LRT down these corridors. As has been mentioned there is no good ROW to work with.

First, i did not say this would be happening soon.

Second, Why can't the Skytrain be run more often than LRT?

Third, this is looking forward 20-50 years into the future. There will be the need for higher order transit to White Rock. By the time it gets to Surrey, it will be a reasonably full train. If they extend it further to Pitt Meadows or Maple Ridge, then it could really become a busy line.

Bottom line, Surrey needs to stop thinking local, and start thinking regional.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

First, i did not say this would be happening soon.

Second, Why can't the Skytrain be run more often than LRT?

Third, this is looking forward 20-50 years into the future. There will be the need for higher order transit to White Rock. By the time it gets to Surrey, it will be a reasonably full train. If they extend it further to Pitt Meadows or Maple Ridge, then it could really become a busy line.

Bottom line, Surrey needs to stop thinking local, and start thinking regional.

The problem is that thinking regional often doesn't play out in politicians favor from what I can see