Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[thoughtsandrobots]

The NFL will be coming to Toronto.

Why? Well, when it happens, it will complete an ascent of the city into bona fide sports mecca, and the media oligarchs stand to profit heavily from this. Toronto is not some middling outpost anymore. It has ambitions. The 6ix. The powerful here, though often lacking vision, have begun to embrace new visions. Younger visions.

An NFL team along with the existing MLB and NBA teams gives Toronto presence in the big three American pro sports leagues. The NHL team, the MLS team, and there is no reason the CFL team (different market) can't remain, along with some of the other interesting developments happening (Wolfpack, BioSteel game, etc) make content, content, content.

Content + a city embracing pro sports like never before is serious value. So yes, the NFL will profit too.

Serious sports city. Aren't the roots of gridiron football deeply sewn in Toronto? The first recorded baseball game played not far from it's metropolis? I know the first NBA game was played in Toronto at Maple Leaf Gardens between the Huskies and New York Knickerbockers and that Toronto has become a hot bed of talent the likes of which is only beginning to bear fruit. Before TFC, the MLS was a hokie soccer league. TFC and its supporter culture is responsible for MLS 2.0 and all the clubs that have come in like gangbusters after. The commissioner says as much. World Cup 2026? What about the Wolfpack? The first trans-Atlantic pro sports franchise which is already being heavily studied by the NFL. Was it last Saturday we had a Jays game, TFC game, Leafs playoff game and Raptors game all on the same day and each was celebrated. This after the BioSteel game which is becoming big. There is the Athlete Institute (Maker, Murray) and MLS talent (Larin best striker in MLS?) and dang...Toronto is not Saskatchewan. It's a multi-sport mecca on the precipice. The NFL is inevitable.

I envision an October with NFL games, MLB playoff games, NBA and NHL seasons starting, MLS playoffs, CFL playoffs, and much, much more. It's coming!

[FFX-ME]

To me I find the idea of Toronto getting an NFL team ridiculous. It's a foreign league, it would be like getting a premier league soccer team. We already have the CFL and MLS, stay out. Plus, if the CFL has proven anything, it's that Toronto is not a football town and an NFL team would surely fail. And if you say that the NFL is different from the CFL and that proves nothing well you only need to look back a bit at the exhibition games played in Toronto and their lackluster attendance.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

The NFL will be coming to Toronto.

Why? Well, when it happens, it will complete an ascent of the city into bona fide sports mecca, and the media oligarchs stand to profit heavily from this. Toronto is not some middling outpost anymore. It has ambitions. The 6ix. The powerful here, though often lacking vision, have begun to embrace new visions. Younger visions.

An NFL team along with the existing MLB and NBA teams gives Toronto presence in the big three American pro sports leagues. The NHL team, the MLS team, and there is no reason the CFL team (different market) can't remain, along with some of the other interesting developments happening (Wolfpack, BioSteel game, etc) make content, content, content.

Content + a city embracing pro sports like never before is serious value. So yes, the NFL will profit too.

Serious sports city. Aren't the roots of gridiron football deeply sewn in Toronto? The first recorded baseball game played not far from it's metropolis? I know the first NBA game was played in Toronto at Maple Leaf Gardens between the Huskies and New York Knickerbockers and that Toronto has become a hot bed of talent the likes of which is only beginning to bear fruit. Before TFC, the MLS was a hokie soccer league. TFC and its supporter culture is responsible for MLS 2.0 and all the clubs that have come in like gangbusters after. The commissioner says as much. World Cup 2026? What about the Wolfpack? The first trans-Atlantic pro sports franchise which is already being heavily studied by the NFL. Was it last Saturday we had a Jays game, TFC game, Leafs playoff game and Raptors game all on the same day and each was celebrated. This after the BioSteel game which is becoming big. There is the Athlete Institute (Maker, Murray) and MLS talent (Larin best striker in MLS?) and dang...Toronto is not Saskatchewan. It's a multi-sport mecca on the precipice. The NFL is inevitable.

I envision an October with NFL games, MLB playoff games, NBA and NHL seasons starting, MLS playoffs, CFL playoffs, and much, much more. It's coming!

Do you work for Rogers?

[Hackslack]

its been proven time and time again that the NFL is a flop in Toronto... 4 major reasons 1) No tailgating 2) no Billion dollar stadium, rest assured the government wouldn't hand over money for a foreign sport league that could potentially end the domestic league 3) What individual wil fork over the billion dollars to buy a team or expansion franchise, plus build a stadium 4) Buffalo is down the road.

Look at the Jays, attendance will falter due to crappy team. History will undoubtably repeat itself.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

To me I find the idea of Toronto getting an NFL team ridiculous. It's a foreign league, it would be like getting a premier league soccer team. We already have the CFL and MLS, stay out. Plus, if the CFL has proven anything, it's that Toronto is not a football town and an NFL team would surely fail. And if you say that the NFL is different from the CFL and that proves nothing well you only need to look back a bit at the exhibition games played in Toronto and their lackluster attendance.

Toronto has the attitude of a big american city and having an NFL would help bolster that, I have no doubt that Torontonians would support a franchise in droves. The only reason the CFL does't do well is that the people in the GTA think that it's below them or something.

I don't know that the NFL would move in in the next 5 years even, but I would be shocked if it didn't happen at all. After all, the NFL must be salivating over an untapped market over 7 million strong. If lowly Green Bay, WI can support a team, surely Toronto is capable, and likely more than fit for the task.

The final factor to consider is that the NFL would love nothing more than to have a successful international footprint (talks about London etc.). Having a team in Canada would be a logical step and Toronto the most obvious beneficiary of NFL expansionism.

[Hackslack]

NFL isn't a gate driven league, therefore the Toronto market is already tapped, as those who support the NFL already tune in to the NFL every Sunday.

I'm sure the NFL, is salivating more about Mexico City potentially having a team. 20 million people, with minor football growing, there is huge dollars to be made from Mexico. Plus the Stadium infrastructure is already there, unlike Toronto... the best Toronto can do for football is a 30k lego like stadium.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

To me I find the idea of Toronto getting an NFL team ridiculous. It's a foreign league, it would be like getting a premier league soccer team. We already have the CFL and MLS, stay out. Plus, if the CFL has proven anything, it's that Toronto is not a football town and an NFL team would surely fail. And if you say that the NFL is different from the CFL and that proves nothing well you only need to look back a bit at the exhibition games played in Toronto and their lackluster attendance.

What are the NHL, MLB, NBA and MLS?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Toronto has the attitude of a big american city and having an NFL would help bolster that, I have no doubt that Torontonians would support a franchise in droves. The only reason the CFL does't do well is that the people in the GTA think that it's below them or something.

I don't know that the NFL would move in in the next 5 years even, but I would be shocked if it didn't happen at all. After all, the NFL must be salivating over an untapped market over 7 million strong. If lowly Green Bay, WI can support a team, surely Toronto is capable, and likely more than fit for the task.

The final factor to consider is that the NFL would love nothing more than to have a successful international footprint (talks about London etc.). Having a team in Canada would be a logical step and Toronto the most obvious beneficiary of NFL expansionism.

Several notable obstacles will probably keep the NFL out of Toronto.

1. The Bills are ~150km away and draw a significant portion of their fanbase from Southern Ontario. Whereas, there are no competing NBA or MLB teams for hundreds of kilometers, so a Toronto team has exclusivity for a large area.

2. The Skydome is an inadequate venue for NFL needs. That means a new stadium. As new NFL stadiums run $1.5-2 billion each, it's far too rich for a government to consider supporting it, as it would compete with an existing venue in a prime location. Especially when several US cities will gladly subsidize venues (see: Las Vegas)

3. The Bills-Toronto series was not the success envisioned by Rogers and the NFL. After the initial novelty wore off attendance plummeted.

4. The CFL would object to it. The CFL has struggled in eastern Canada and a NFL team would likely help to kill the Argos. Eastern Canada isn't much of a football market, despite the population. The presence of the NFL would dilute those fans further.

5. As mentioned before, the TV contract. The NFL already makes money from Canada by licencing games to CTV/TSN. A Toronto team might help improve those numbers a bit, but I have my doubts if it would make enough of a difference to matter to the NFL. Also, as mentioned before, it's not good if the presence of a Canadian team hurts ratings in the US - the golden goose of markets. A small loss in ratings in the US would easily destroy any gain in Canadian ratings.

6. Green Bay is an anomaly as a market. It is something more akin to Saskatchewan for the Roughriders - an ultra dedicated fanbase that supports a team well out of proportion to its population. Aside from the Maple Leafs, no team has that kind of support in Toronto. The Jays and Raptors have lost attendance when their teams have played poorly. The only silver lining to the Toronto market is that it is so huge that attendance never declines enough to cause the team to fold.

[esquire]

Personally I think Toronto would support the NFL quite well if they ever land a team. However, would it be supported well enough to justify the massive up front costs of franchise + stadium (given that government won't be building one)? At that point the issue gets murky... there are many US municipal, county and state governments that would be more inclined to throw massive dollars at a NFL team.

[thoughtsandrobots]

What the...?

"Foreign league" "stay out"

I find that more ridiculous. Will you protest Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and stream an Atom Egoyan classic instead? Do you watch The Walking Dead or just The Nature of Things? Eat at Chipotle? Shop at American Eagle? Should we ban foreigners? Not listen to Arcade Fire because the lead singer is American who loves basketball? Lead singers should only love hockey, its a Canadian game. Rush are traders.

Sports is about entertainment. The CFL is not Canadian culture. This football protectionism is crazy. It's like only listening to one band who plays two guitars, a bass and drums because they are Canadian while banning the other band who plays two guitars, a bass and drums because they are Norwegian and don't have lyrics.

I also don't understand how many Canadians repeatedly don't understand the Toronto sports mentality. It is said here enough. Toronto cares about shiny things. Toronto wants to beat Chicago not Winnipeg. Toronto wants to be on ESPN and talked about in Mumbai. The CFL failures do not make certain the NFL will fail.

Reverse experiment: Let's put the Blue Jays in a Canadian baseball league. Success? Raptors in a Canadian basketball league...success? Let's but Toronto FC in an all-Canadian soccer league? Sell outs of 30,000?

The Bills Rogers experiment is zero indication of anything. Put "Toronto" on a jersey, go against the New England Patriots with the lure of a Super Bowl down the road and...there won't be enough seats in any stadium.

Remember, they said the Blue Jays would never make it in a hockey town. They said the Raptors and basketball were dead on arrival. They said soccer didn't stand a chance. Yet through thick and thin those franchises are in the top 10 in attendance (top 5?) win or lose and have become phenomena in this market. The NFL would be that and maybe more.

I agree Toronto is not a football town. Toronto is a "Toronto" metropolis.

Full of "foreigners" I might add.

[wave46]

Another problem for the NFL: The value of the Canadian dollar relative to the $USD. The salary cap of the NFL is ~$150m USD, so a competitive team will need to spend close to that on salary. The NHL and NBA have much lower player costs.

[thoughtsandrobots]

So much focus on the "problems." The reasons why "not." Does anyone really believe there are not people right now focused on the solutions and the reason why it can happen? There are. Tim Lieweke believed it was possible. Jon "frickn" Bon Jovi did. Ted Rogers was convinced. Say what you want about each but these were successful, rich, powerful, not stupid men and only a small fraction of the pool. Who is to say a tycoon from Bahrain isn't designing the logo right now instead of banging his fist on a gold desk at the ridiculousness of it all.

These guys didn't stop because of all these economic questions being asked. They didn't get teams. Somebody will. It's not far away.

[FFX-ME]

Plus there are only 10 games in a season to make up that cost.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

So much focus on the "problems." The reasons why "not." Does anyone really believe there are not people right now focused on the solutions and the reason why it can happen? There are. Tim Lieweke believed it was possible. Jon "frickn" Bon Jovi did. Ted Rogers was convinced. Say what you want about each but these were successful, rich, powerful, not stupid men and only a small fraction of the pool. Who is to say a tycoon from Bahrain isn't designing the logo right now instead of banging his fist on a gold desk at the ridiculousness of it all.

These guys didn't stop because of all these economic questions being asked. They didn't get teams. Somebody will. It's not far away.

Unless someone reawakens Bill S-238, effectively making an NFL expansion into Canada illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

[EpicPonyTime]

Another reason why Toronto won't get a team: Oakland, San Diego and St Louis just lost their teams. There's nothing to put Toronto above those cities.

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

The CFL is not Canadian culture.

How can the CFL not be Canadian culture but everything else you listed are?

[FFX-ME]

Clearly the CFL is part of Canadian history and our culture.

Honestly, if any city can hope to have an NFL teak it would be Regina or Saskatoon. The Roughriders are by far the most profitable team in the CFL, they would be akin to Greenbay.

[thoughtsandrobots]

Well...I believe more than half of all CFL players are...foreigners.

Ryan Reynolds being Canadian doesn't make Deadpool a Canadian movie, I agree. However, I wasn't really saying those things were Canadian culture rather pointing out that the vitriol for having NFL football in Canada is akin to having Hollywood movies in our theatres, or shows on our tvs, or bands in our arenas.

I apologize. CFL is as much a part of Canada as the Blue Jays or Ryan Reynolds.

[thoughtsandrobots]

Oakland, San Diego, St. Louis... or Toronto? Really?

Teams are becoming brands more than teams. The NFL understands marketing. If Oakland or San Diego or St. Louis expands the NFL brand throughout the world more than Toronto, where in the future all sports will stream from all places... then the NFL will go there. I think sports is growing beyond TV numbers. There is a planet to be had.

Why do the Raptors have Chinese New Year jerseys? Locals? No. The Raptors brand is growing throughout the world. China is to be had.

[thoughtsandrobots]

Did someone just say the only place that can hope to have an NFL team is Regina or Saskatoon?

Did that just happen?

Where am I?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

Well...I believe more than half of all CFL players are...foreigners.

Ryan Reynolds being Canadian doesn't make Deadpool a Canadian movie, I agree. However, I wasn't really saying those things were Canadian culture rather pointing out that the vitriol for having NFL football in Canada is akin to having Hollywood movies in our theatres, or shows on our tvs, or bands in our arenas.

I apologize. CFL is as much a part of Canada as the Blue Jays or Ryan Reynolds.

I don't care if the NFL comes to Toronto or not, personally. I didn't go to the Bills-Toronto series. I don't care for the CFL much either. If all the financing is done privately (by Rogers or whomever) I have no problem or issue with the NFL in Toronto. In my opinion, it seems unlikely for the reasons I've listed above, but there could be a billionaire just waiting for the opportunity.

My large objection to most large sports venues is this: they tend to require a large sum of public money that ends up benefiting a small group of people. An NFL team would require a brand new stadium in Toronto. I doubt such an endeavor could be built entirely by private interests. In Canada, we've been hosed repeatedly with large stadiums for the "public good" in the form of Olympic Stadium and Skydome. I see no situation where the addition of a NFL team doesn't require "public incentive" from government to be possible.