Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Are the Bills that dependent on Toronto?

I posted a stat from the Bills ownership that something like 20% of the fans at a Bills game are from the GTA.

(Not sure if they're all cheering for the Bills though).

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

From what I understand and my gut feel about it from listening to it through the years (and I don't regularly follow sports), the issue with another GTA NHL team is partly the Leafs (and to a secondary effect, the Sabres and the Redwings) don't want their markets carved up.

To carve up the Leafs market to add a new GTA team with no legacy... The League's gonna fight that tooth and nail to the bitter end, just to make sure there won't be a "Make it Nine!" push for Canadian teams in the League. (And that's assuming QC makes it eight).

The Leafs certainly want the Greater Golden Horseshoe to themselves but all it's really doing is speeding up the move to other sports and other leagues.

Ignore a market long enough and people will find something else to watch/support. Many have already moved on to the MLS, NBA, MLB, and even the Ti-Cats. Soon there will be 2-3 generations that the NHL have lost to the competition. Once they're gone it will be very difficult to bring them back.

People mistakenly believe that this is Canada so people will always want hockey but that attitude is arrogant and naive. Tons of people have already moved on. Hockey folk just haven't noticed because the Toronto market is so massive you can have a 50% drop and the fan base is still large.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by wave46

I posted a stat from the Bills ownership that something like 20% of the fans at a Bills game are from the GTA.

(Not sure if they're all cheering for the Bills though).

I believe the stat was 20% of their season ticket holders are from Southern Ontario - not just the GTA

[thoughtsandrobots]

Where are these 12 professional sports franchises on the Prairies?

I live in the western suburbs of the GTA. In no particular order here are the "team sports" within a two-hour drive from my house:

MAJOR PROFESSIONAL
Buffalo Bills (NFL), Toronto Blue Jays (MLB), Toronto Raptors (NBA), Toronto Maple Leafs (NHL), and Buffalo Sabres (NHL)
MINOR PROFESSIONAL
Toronto FC (MLS), Toronto Argonauts (CFL), Hamilton Tiger-Cats (CFL)

Of those teams there are farm teams close by: Buffalo Bisons (Blue Jays), Raptors 905 (Raptors), Toronto Marlies (Maple Leafs), Toronto FC II (TFC). Each of these teams have their own rather nice facilities.

Then there are Division I U.S. Colleges within a two hour drive:
Buffalo Bulls (football, basketball), Canisius Golden Griffins (basketball), Niagara Purple Eagles (basketball)

Toronto is also home to the first fully professional Trans-Atlantic sports franchise: the Toronto Wolfpack who play in England's division 3 Rugby League (and about to move up to the top level quite quickly). There is the Toronto Rock and Buffalo Bandits of the NLL I suppose.

I count 8 major/minor professional teams I can drive to on any given day and quite a fair amount of others totally excluding CIS sports, junior hockey, the NBL of Canada, etc.
By the same token, the Prairies would have only 7 major/minor that most people in most places could never drive to for a casual day trip.
In Toronto those 8 are from 5 different sports. Prairies? 2 sports.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The Leafs certainly want the Greater Golden Horseshoe to themselves but all it's really doing is speeding up the move to other sports and other leagues.
Ignore a market long enough and people will find something else to watch/support. Many have already moved on to the MLS, NBA, MLB, and even the Ti-Cats. Soon there will be 2-3 generations that the NHL have lost to the competition. Once they're gone it will be very difficult to bring them back.
People mistakenly believe that this is Canada so people will always want hockey but that attitude is arrogant and naive. Tons of people have already moved on. Hockey folk just haven't noticed because the Toronto market is so massive you can have a 50% drop and the fan base is still large.

That's probably what happened in Saskatchewan when Bill Hunter bought the Blues back in the 80's but NHL governors didn't allow the team to move, Saskatchewan went on to back other sports like the Riders in football and have the most WHL hockey teams out of any Province.
Saskatchewan still has quarter of province population following NHL though as compared to almost half of Canada population following the NHL.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

I believe the stat was 20% of their season ticket holders are from Southern Ontario - not just the GTA

This is true and also applies for the Sabres as well (which is why the Canadian national anthem is played at Sabres games even when no Canadian team is playing). Plus the Lions also gets a lot of their attendance from Southern Ontario as well. Which is one of the many reasons why the NFL would be very successful in Toronto. Using the Bills in Toronto series as a gauge is ridiculous and ignorant.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Berklon

This is true and also applies for the Sabres as well (which is why the Canadian national anthem is played at Sabres games even when no Canadian team is playing). Plus the Lions also gets a lot of their attendance from Southern Ontario as well. Which is one of the many reasons why the NFL would be very successful in Toronto. Using the Bills in Toronto series as a gauge is ridiculous and ignorant.

I don't see how it's ridiculous or ignorant, honestly. Stupid to give it more value than what you said, sure, but there's some stark realities in the series because that's essentially​ what the NFL experience in Toronto would be like. It would be expensive as hell, there wouldn't be better tailgating than there is for the Argos, and the players wouldn't be interested in playing in Toronto, at least for a decade. Throw in an expensive new stadium in a stupid location and a shiny statue of Ted Rogers (because it is only through his grace and his creation you'd receive a team), and you don't exactly have a recipe for success.

[craner]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ On bringing in multiple teams to the same market, it is my understanding that the NHL allowed another team in the NYC area as a pre-emptive measure to keep rival leagues out of the Nassau Coliseum when it was first built... I've heard the WHA mentioned even though it didn't exist in 1970, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

This is the theory I heard as well. The Islanders (& Flames) came in 1972 when the WHA was starting. The Sabres and Canucks came in 1970.

[esquire]

^ OK, that makes more sense... for some reason I thought the NY Islanders dated back to 1970, but 1972 puts them squarely in the period where the WHA was seen as a potential threat to the NHL.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I don't see how it's ridiculous or ignorant, honestly. Stupid to give it more value than what you said, sure, but there's some stark realities in the series because that's essentially​ what the NFL experience in Toronto would be like. It would be expensive as hell, there wouldn't be better tailgating than there is for the Argos, and the players wouldn't be interested in playing in Toronto, at least for a decade. Throw in an expensive new stadium in a stupid location and a shiny statue of Ted Rogers (because it is only through his grace and his creation you'd receive a team), and you don't exactly have a recipe for success.

If the Bills in Toronto series had been a smashing success it might have helped a bit, but that's not a significant reason that the NFL is so wishy-washy on Toronto.

All the other reasons you've given are also fairly moot.

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that if the NFL made a leap of faith and put a team in Toronto it would be a very successful franchise.

So why is the NFL not very interested? There are a number of reasons:

- One of the NFL's most valuable assets is its national TV contract. It's well known in sports TV circles that Canadian clubs are ratings duds on American TV. It's not just that there are no eyeballs that count to US advertisers and networks on one side of the field, it's also that there are generally fewer viewers in the US when a Canadian team is involved.

- The NFL already "has" Toronto and Canada as markets without having a single team there.

- 600,000 people a season buying tickets to sell out a Toronto NFL stadium is a pittance to the NFL's overall bottom line.

That's why they are more interested in London and maybe Mexico. It's not because Toronto wouldn't be a good market for them.

[esquire]

^ Would one Canadian team really be such a ratings dud in the US? I get it with the NHL where sometimes it seems that there are almost parallel Canadian and US leagues (note the domination of Canadian teams on Rogers SN/CBC coverage, while NHL Network focuses on US teams nonstop), but with only one Canadian team the NFL wouldn't have that dynamic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Would one Canadian team really be such a ratings dud in the US? I get it with the NHL where sometimes it seems that there are almost parallel Canadian and US leagues (note the domination of Canadian teams on Rogers SN/CBC coverage, while NHL Network focuses on US teams nonstop), but with only one Canadian team the NFL wouldn't have that dynamic.

Apparently it's a fairly consistent complaint even in MLB and the NBA where they only have one Canadian club.

I realize the NFL is a different beast but it still leads to the question: "what does the NFL have to gain by putting a team in Toronto?"

Even if it doesn't really hurt the US TV contract situation, it wouldn't contribute to enriching it either.

And asI said, while the NFL may not be maxed out in its market penetration in Canada, it's already super-high and basically at the level of a very popular domestic league. It's more popular than MLB, NBA and MLS, all of which already have teams in Canada.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Apparently it's a fairly consistent complaint even in MLB and the NBA where they only have one Canadian club.

I realize the NFL is a different beast but it still leads to the question: "what does the NFL have to gain by putting a team in Toronto?"

Even if it doesn't really hurt the US TV contract situation, it wouldn't contribute to enriching it either.

And asI said, while the NFL may not be maxed out in its market penetration in Canada, it's already super-high and basically at the level of a very popular domestic league. It's more popular than MLB, NBA and MLS, all of which already have teams in Canada.

While the NFL does well in Canada, it still a good deal behind the NHL. So I guess that's a goal the NFL could try to attain - be as popular in Canada as hockey. I'm sure the NFL ears perked up when they heard how much Rogers bought the NHL rights for.

And you can ask the same questions about MLB and the NBA. What do they gain by adding teams in Toronto? They obviously thought there was enough to gain. And then you can ask the same thing about the NFL with places like Jacksonville - what do they gain by adding that small market? Or by keeping a team in Buffalo.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Berklon

While the NFL does well in Canada, it still a good deal behind the NHL. So I guess that's a goal the NFL could try to attain - be as popular in Canada as hockey. I'm sure the NFL ears perked up when they heard how much Rogers bought the NHL rights for.

And you can ask the same questions about MLB and the NBA. What do they gain by adding teams in Toronto? They obviously thought there was enough to gain. And then you can ask the same thing about the NFL with places like Jacksonville - what do they gain by adding that small market? Or by keeping a team in Buffalo.

I'd say that MLB and the NBA were much much lower on the radar in this country (than the NFL is today) when they started thinking about expanding here. It wasn't totally virgin territory for sure but it was far from the quasi-home turf that the NFL enjoys today in Canada either. So there was definitely more to be gained for them.

As for the NFL expanding within the US, well that is only normal that you'd want to maximize your imprint in your home market. It's a no-brainer and very easy to do. Certainly much easier than expanding to a foreign country - even one as similar to the US as Canada.

Another x-factor that may not be insignificant to the NFL is that it has the highest percentage of players with a criminial record of any pro sports league. It's estimated that close to a fifth of its players have some form of criminal record. That's another reason to want to keep its operations mostly confined to US territory. (I realize that this is a negative for expansion to London and Mexico as much as Toronto.)

[GernB]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

That's probably what happened in Saskatchewan when Bill Hunter bought the Blues back in the 80's but NHL governors didn't allow the team to move, Saskatchewan went on to back other sports like the Riders in football and have the most WHL hockey teams out of any Province.
Saskatchewan still has quarter of province population following NHL though as compared to almost half of Canada population following the NHL.

BC has six teams in the WHL. Alberta and Saskatchewan each have five.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Another x-factor that may not be insignificant to the NFL is that it has the highest percentage of players with a criminial record of any pro sports league. It's estimated that close to a fifth of its players have some form of criminal record. That's another reason to want to keep its operations mostly confined to US territory. (I realize that this is a negative for expansion to London and Mexico as much as Toronto.)

There must be ways around that... let's face it, there are a lot of CFLers who come from hardscrabble towns in Pennsylvania or the tough parts of LA who don't have lily white rap sheets. Somehow they make it in.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^I think the issue becomes if an incident occurs during the season on Canadian soil how are laws interpreted and enforced for the sports celebrity. We all know the laws aren't the same in some cases, but the NFL probably has greater sway in the US than in Canada. Is this a problem the NFL wants to address in going into a market they already effectively own? Maybe not.

In Mexico and London there is a much larger new audience to capture. So its a different and potentially much lower risk/return ratio.

[Acajack]

It's a bigger issue for the NFL than many people realize.

The NBA also has its share of problems with players' criminal behaviour but it's not as bad as the NFL, and also NBA teams only travel with about 15 players.

An NFL team travels with a whopping 50 players. Way more potential for trouble when you have three to four times as many guys.

[Migs]

A Post storm drive-by of the new Mosaic Stadium earlier tonight

https://twitter.com/yqrstadium/status/854874459278147584

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by GernB

BC has six teams in the WHL. Alberta and Saskatchewan each have five.

..in the 1980's it didn't,
BC & Alberta had fewer teams back then, Saskatchewan's five WHL teams apparently helped build the WHL popularity farther west later on..

Originally posted by Acajack
Apparently it's a fairly consistent complaint even in MLB and the NBA where they only have one Canadian club.

I realize the NFL is a different beast but it still leads to the question: "what does the NFL have to gain by putting a team in Toronto?"

MLB had first Canadian team with Montreal and NBA's first Canadian team in Vancouver in addition to the Toronto lack lustre team.

The NFL has nothing to gain market wise with putting a team in Toronto, but potentially a lot to lose. NFL market base wouldn't change much in the rest of Canada with a team in Toronto but if a NFL team fan base were to slide like with the Argos, it would be a black eye for the NFL. Toronto doesn't have a stadium even close to hosting NFL games anymore, it doesn't even have a stadium that can hold a candle to NMS or IGF, so the NFL door has closed.

All Toronto can hope for in continuing exposure to pro football is by seeing the stronger CFL teams, particular from the West, playing in that city. This might help renew interest for football in Toronto.