ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[Kh9142]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

This site is directly adjacent to the Arts Center Station along with a flurry of construction projects all around. There is an increasing amount of pedestrian traffic in this areas- to add 2 curb cuts in such a short amount of distance (particularly that close to another intersection) creates safety challenges for all modes of transportation in the area. The 15th street extension will only guarantee more foot and vehicular traffic in this area as AMLI opens up later this year as well as when the air rights become developed over the Arts Center Station in the coming decade.

The DRC (and others on here) are looking out for the long-term safety of the pedestrian zone as well as traffic through-put in the area....we're not complacent in satisfying the short-term needs of a developer who has a bad track record for parking-dominated, car-centric developments.

I'm not sure many realize just how small of a parcel this hotel is being built on-- I think the two curb cuts are necessary because a car would not have the room to turn around within the footprint of the building and still have a proper unloading area. I don't really have a problem with two curb cuts when one is inbound and one is outbound. It's not that much difference than a single two way entrance.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Kh9142

I'm not sure many realize just how small of a parcel this hotel is being built on-- I think the two curb cuts are necessary because a car would not have the room to turn around within the footprint of the building and still have a proper unloading area. I don't really have a problem with two curb cuts when one is inbound and one is outbound. It's not that much difference than a single two way entrance.

If they could make the argument that the valet drop-off area would enhance the street zone (like the Westin at M Street in Washington) with an open space at the corner that would be one thing, but the current iteration just treats 15th street like it's a service alley.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Kh9142

I'm not sure many realize just how small of a parcel this hotel is being built on-- I think the two curb cuts are necessary because a car would not have the room to turn around within the footprint of the building and still have a proper unloading area. I don't really have a problem with two curb cuts when one is inbound and one is outbound. It's not that much difference than a single two way entrance.

I think I actually agree. Was there retail space in this concept originally? I had thought not, and I feel like the addition of retail would more or less make up for the second curb cut. The hotel is tall (oddly so) and proposing a cool lobby and bar on the top floor--that actually has the potential to be a minor local gem if they pull it off right. How many other places in Midtown have something like that? I'm pretty sure it's ~0.

All of this on a postage stamp of a lot. Seems like a good deal to me.

It's moot since it was rejected apparently, but I don't have a problem with the idea. The number of cars coming and going over said curb cut will be the same regardless.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

This site is directly adjacent to the Arts Center Station along with a flurry of construction projects all around. There is an increasing amount of pedestrian traffic in this areas- to add 2 curb cuts in such a short amount of distance (particularly that close to another intersection) creates safety challenges for all modes of transportation in the area. The 15th street extension will only guarantee more foot and vehicular traffic in this area as AMLI opens up later this year as well as when the air rights become developed over the Arts Center Station in the coming decade.

The DRC (and others on here) are looking out for the long-term safety of the pedestrian zone as well as traffic through-put in the area....we're not complacent in satisfying the short-term needs of a developer who has a bad track record for parking-dominated, car-centric developments.

I understand what you are saying, but realistically if 100 cars a day park here how can that create much of a safety hazard?

[Atlriser]

I know i'll be chewed a new one for this comment, but how do you build a hotel in Atlanta and not have parking? The only two places that will work is the airport or a convention hotel directly above a Marta station/attached to other convention hotels downtown. This hotel is neither, and I agree midtown needs more midpriced lodging options. Another thought, 15th street is a service street. It's not anything more than that and will/should remain as such. I love people who idealize crap but loose touch with reality in route thus accomplishing nothing.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

I know i'll be chewed a new one for this comment, but how do you build a hotel in Atlanta and not have parking? The only two places that will work is the airport or a convention hotel directly above a Marta station/attached to other convention hotels downtown. This hotel is neither, and I agree midtown needs more midpriced lodging options. Another thought, 15th street is a service street. It's not anything more than that and will/should remain as such. I love people who idealize crap but loose touch with reality in route thus accomplishing nothing.

I'm not generally in disagreement, but 15th is planned to poke through over at least to Williams Street, which would make it quite a bit more than just a service street.

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

I know i'll be chewed a new one for this comment, but how do you build a hotel in Atlanta and not have parking? The only two places that will work is the airport or a convention hotel directly above a Marta station/attached to other convention hotels downtown. This hotel is neither, and I agree midtown needs more midpriced lodging options. Another thought, 15th street is a service street. It's not anything more than that and will/should remain as such. I love people who idealize crap but loose touch with reality in route thus accomplishing nothing.

With all due respect, that kind of thinking is shortsighted and counterproductive to improving our built environment.

[RATBOYKEV]

If there was only an oversized parking deck with existing curb cuts that was serving an office crowd which hold a generally opposite parking schedule of hotel guests somewhere in the proximity...oh wait.

[Atlriser]

15th street is like 12th, 11th, 7th or 3rd street. It's a localized community service street. It's not intended to be a heavily traversed street for all of midtown. Its meant to service the area around it.

[Atlriser]

Delete

[One ATLien]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

I know i'll be chewed a new one for this comment, but how do you build a hotel in Atlanta and not have parking? The only two places that will work is the airport or a convention hotel directly above a Marta station/attached to other convention hotels downtown. This hotel is neither, and I agree midtown needs more midpriced lodging options. Another thought, 15th street is a service street. It's not anything more than that and will/should remain as such. I love people who idealize crap but loose touch with reality in route thus accomplishing nothing.

You have to be realistic. But lets not kid ourselves, its clear by now that all corners of midtown are changing or bound too by now. The dynamic of all streets in Midtown are changing. There are plans to expand 15th street to cross the highway, and plans to redevelop and build mixed use towers on top of the Marts Arts station across the street, add to that a few other prospective projects in the mix near 15th street, all of which seem likely to break ground within the next few years. The dynamic of the area will change, so in the case of this hotel, I do think it is important that those in charge of approving new projects, idealize things in the area to the best of their ability at least. With that being said, I do see parking as a must have in most projects in Atlanta, but at least pressure developers to get it right, improve architecture, smarter design for parking, so that we don't get fortress like structures anymore. Midtown is rapidly changing, and its realistic in 2017 to want to idealize projects in all of Midtown and Downtown for that matter.

[Atlriser]

So what was the actual comments/feedback made regarding the proposal and suggestions by the committee. I just see comments that it was voted against but not actual suggestions by the committee. Thats whats important to resolve and resubmit. Given the size i see no way for 1 curb cut without elevating the entire building which is then no different than adding another parking level essentially. I wonder what the committee actually responded to the developer as wanting reviewed.

[Atlriser]

Im confused. Someone said the curb cuts were the issue but everyone is talking about parking. Yes, the parking decks are horrendous agreed and I am not arguing to build huge decks at all but a hotel especially one that will appeal to families and people traveling by car such as Hampton Inn will require parking otherwise dont build it at all. I honest have no care one way or other but if you want to see projects like all you mentioned to densify the area then how would this particular hotel counter your argument. Lets densify but build everything without any parking and just pray that people who stay at this hotel can take Marta or ride a bike to it! Hows that gonna work?

From the comments regarding the drc, it appears the curb cuts are the issue not the parking so why is that what is being talked about. Yes, let them do 1 curb cut if able by all means. The comments on here about parking don't seem to coincide with what the drc is asking to be reviewed.

As far as style, its different than the glass towers going up on every corner, so I think it would be nice for a little change up instead of constant glass squares or concrete/glass. Is it pretty/architecturally interesting, hmmm... no answer! The lobby at top does sound extremely appealing and honestly also suggest a non-autocentric hotel of the future in many ways. Hell, this even sounds like they are planning for a future of not needing to focus on parking and possibly one day building out the remaining area for valet as commercial space if you really think about it. I nor anyone can dictate beauty for someone else so please get off that horse or ride it out of town and let many styles be built. All different highrises in close proximity is what makes cities interesting architecturally.

[jwbab]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

Im confused. Someone said the curb cuts were the issue but everyone is talking about parking. Yes, the parking decks are horrendous agreed and I am not arguing to build huge decks at all but a hotel especially one that will appeal to families and people traveling by car such as Hampton Inn will require parking otherwise dont build it at all. I honest have no care one way or other but if you want to see projects like all you mentioned to densify the area then how would this particular hotel counter your argument. Lets densify but build everything without any parking and just pray that people who stay at this hotel can take Marta or ride a bike to it! Hows that gonna work?

I don't recall the committee ever saying they expected them not to have any parking. In fact, they approved the previous iteration of the project with essentially the same amount of parking. Their concern was with the developer's decision to modify the approved design, which had one curb cut, to include two curb cuts on 15th street. The only rationale offered for adding the second curb cut was essentially that, due to the turning radius of the entry, automobiles would have to slow down too much and be careful when entering/exiting the property. The committee indicated they thought a reduction in automobile speeds was a good thing.

Keep in mind, the DRC's opinion is technically only advisory in nature. It carries weight, but ultimately the city can approve the project even if the DRC is not in favor.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Doraville Redevelopment plans (Looks like another EVIVA is in this too)

[Atlriser]

Thank you jwbab, I completely 100% agree with the committee then. So the parking they agreed was acceptable but not the curb cuts. Curb cuts are horrendous for those of us who walk as much as possible I agree, slower moving cars and less cuts are the correct direction they should pursue. If anything, developers should link their properties through parking lots/internal entrances and not have separate street entrances when adjacent surface lots are built in my opinion like the fast food restaurants along Ponce. Curb cuts do make people think twice before walking busy areas even when sidewalks are provided. Thanks again for the clarification on what the committee asked to be revised!

[Atlriser]

Originally Posted by Frankster87

With all due respect, that kind of thinking is shortsighted and counterproductive to improving our built environment.

How so? Many streets in urban areas are service streets and are the ones that locals frequent for their daily needs. Not eveyone cares to walk main throughfares like West Peachtree or even 10th street from the Connector to Piedmont all the time. It is the secondary streets that add the charm and neighborhood feeling to an area. Every street doesnt need to be turned into a 24/7 bumper to bumper nightmare. Go to NYC, the secondary streets/service streets are the ones that have charm and locals walk and congregate with each other not the heavily tourist and office worker choked avenues.

[Atlanta3000]

My real world analogy to the topics of parking garages, curb cuts, fortress sided buildings, mega grocery stores in Downtown and Midtown and the "pedestrian experience".

Let's take skyscrapers and urban development out of the equation for a minutes with my analogy and compare it to say - Feeding the Homeless.

Camp A
Similar to the die hard urban planner folks on this forum. Your thought process when deciding how to feed the homeless would be:

• All food must be strictly organic
• Cage free
• Gluten free
• Preferbly farm to table
• No sugar

Camp B
This is the camp I put myself and few others, as well as, most of the developers and lending banks. We have more common sense/economic approach to urban development. When trying to feed the homeless our thought process is:

• Hey - let's cut the BS and get these people some food. They are fucking hungry.

From my perspective, Atlanta for a city of it's size our urban experience is eclipsed by many cities much smaller than ours and all of this time waisted on discussing or preventing development because of curb cuts, parking, mega grocery stores, fortress sided buildings and the "pedestrian experience". The fact is we need significantly more affordable housing, retail, entertainment and jobs to make this great city SHINE.

So I implore everyone here to think hard if two f'en curb cuts on 15th street for a 20 story hotel with ground floor retail will hurt the "pedestrian experience" when you have blocks of parking garages w/o street level retail, surface parking and buildings with 5 stories or less building in the immediate area.

The phrase, "can't see the forest from the trees" comes to mind as I write this.

Exhibit A
The current pedestrian experience at the Hampton Inn & Suite development site at W Peachtree and 15th Street.

[Atlriser]

Well said Atlanta3000! I have a personal experience I encounter several times a week regarding bad curb cuts and something that the drc needs to consider/investigate. I suggest they visit the Hyatt House on Marietta Street recently built. The entrance area only has one curb cut and its quite dangerous to pedestrians because it is tight and people frequently get 'caught' in the entrance and will decide to exit the hotel going in reverse. I walk this block several times a week going to Tech in the evenings and eventhough the sidewalks across Marietta are bad and narrow, I tend to walk on that side and then cross in the middle of the street for fear of being hit by people backing out of the hotel entrance due to the tight space. I would suggest the drc look at this hotel before absolutely saying no to the two curb cuts just for research (not saying they are similar or not) because as a pedestrian I would much rather have a driver coming toward me with a clear view than one backing up onto 15th street because of tight access, nonmoving traffic that might occur due to a narrow/tight entrances at the hotel. I was almost hit twice in a 3 day period walking in front of this hotel before I discovered it was just safer to walk on the otherside than to worry about being hit by a car. Im not a traffic engineer but if anyone that is on the drc reads this thread please visit this location I have mentioned because 2 curb cuts where cars could flow freely would definitely have been 1000 times better on Marietta without a doubt than the one they built. I see people just about everynight walk out into the street lanes for fear of being hit by cars entering and leaving the hotel and its all because of a narrow curb cut that people get stuck in and do stupid things to escape which is common for people who arent familiar with an area when they visit such as patrons of a hotel.

[Ant131531]

I'm not really sure why some people in Atlanta accept mediocrity under the guise of "Well the current pedestrian experience is bad or there's nothing there anyway so it can't hurt"....why are we not thinking long-term decades from now when the entire area is built out? Short term thinking wasn't the reason Paris became the iconic and beautiful, charming city it is today. Let's not rush building mediocre towers and buildings for short term gain. That's why planning organizations and DRCs exist so that we can eventually have a nice urban environment, not a mediocre one...this is the attitude from the 60s-90s that has made so many American cities mediocre today.